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To Artizan007,
'Logos' can mean a literal word or speech. It is an expression of something. We know that Yeshua is the full expression of God, but the word 'logos' can be used to describe John's message (expression) he gave.
Also I believe that it is the Lord God who is the Alpha and the Omega. Remember that Christ is reporting a revelation that came from God, so he may at times quote God's words, just as the angel obviously quotes Christ's and God's words thoughout the Revelation
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,I know this is not a complete answer you are looking for, (perhaps even incorrect) but it is my current view and I share that with you.
I surely don't have all the answers, Artizan007, but I think I can help with a couple of your questions. I am pretty sure that verse 9 should be “word of God” and is referring to scripture (and possibly oral tradition, as well). He is merely telling the reason why he has been exiled to this uninhabited island. Also, I'm pretty sure that John is talking about being in the Holy Spirit.
The only other thing that I can add is that even Strong is not the definitive word on understanding scripture. Strong's books are an immense help in deciphering the ancient texts of the Bible but even his translations could introduce error. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher when it comes to scripture but it will only satisfy you and not others. Pray on it some more (don't give up) and see if God won't reveal the answers to you. Let us know if He does.
Meanwhile, we'll just have to wait and see what the 'other' scholars have to say.
Hi Ao,
The scriptures about the alpha and omega, the first and the last occur frequently in the bible.This is my take;
OT
Is 41.4
Is44.6
Is 48.12
All clearly refer to the Father.
NT
REv 1.8
Rev 21.6
Both are clearly in reference to The Father.Is the Father the first and last? No one would argue that in origin, in power and authority and in every other way there is no being that compares with the Father.
Rev 2.8
” The first and the last , who was dead and has come to life ,says this..”
Rev 22.13
” Behold I am coming quickly and my reward is with me, to render to according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”There is no doubt in my mind that these two scriptures could only relate to the Son of God.
Does that make him the Father? No. I am a white middle[++] aged male. If you are too, you are not me. If you have the same name, as some have, again we are different people.
So how is Yeshua these things?
He is the firstborn Son of God who had total authority under God..
At the end of time, when everything in creation is again subject to him under the Father, he again has total authority under God.[1 cor 15.22-28]
What are the views of others?
Hi A007
As can be seen below, it is interesting to note that not all bible versions read the same. Some leave the reference to ‘Alpha and Omega, first and last’ out completely but in this verse only.
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (AV)
11 saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. (DBY)
11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” (NKJV)
11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea. (RSV)
11 It said, “Write forthwith in a roll an account of what you see, and send it to the seven Churches—to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyateira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” (WEY)
11 ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;’ and, ‘What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.’ (YLT)
11. ‘Write down all that you see in a book, and send it to the seven churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. (JB)
On page 3 of this topic there is a discussion between Ambassador for Christ and myself in regard to this subject – it may help.
Hi RR,
Thanks.That was verse 1.11 presumably. How do the translations compare in 1.8?
I have reread your posts in page 3 and there is some good stuff there. I don't see a mention of Rev 2.8.
I am not sure I agree with your view of Rev 21.13
” The speaker is identified in v 16 as Jesus and he says he is “coming quickly” in verse 12[as in “maranatha.Come Lord Jesus”]. The Father does not 'come' does He?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2005,05:16) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.
Hi T8,Thank you for your answer, I can see that it is the revelation that God gave to Jesus, I agree with you on this. Verse two goes further to state that John bore witness to the fact that this revelation was the word of God but also to the fact that it was the testimony of Jesus.
I can also see that it is the angel that relays the message given to John but sometimes John seems to record the words of a loud voice… spoken about in verse 11 (the alpha and omega);
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
In verse 12, John turns to see the voice that is speaking to him. By his description it can be none other than Christ not the Father being spoken here. (For if no man has seen God then this cannot be Him, nor is God called the Son of Man) Again in verse 18 he says after telling John not to fear, Jesus states that he is the first and the last.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
So yes it was God who gave the revelation to Jesus, Yes it was an angel speaking to John but there are places where the voice speaking to John is that of Jesus and he is called and calls himself the alpha and omega, the first and the Last)
I cordially invite you all to click here.
Quote (Evangelion @ Feb. 28 2005,17:41) I cordially invite you all to click here.
Thank you for the invitation, Evangelion. I stopped by briefly. Looks like you're busy harvesting your corner of the fields. Good work. I've added you to my favorites and hope to stop by again from time to time.Hi cubes,
I will show more interest in the Christadelpians when they stop denying truth, such as the existence of Satan and the reality of the Holy Spirit.
Sadly scripture says about them in Rom 8 9
“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him”
How can they belong to Christ who do not believe in and accept his Spirit?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,03:13) Hi cubes,
I will show more interest in the Christadelpians when they stop denying truth, such as the existence of Satan and the reality of the Holy Spirit.
Sadly scripture says about them in Rom 8 9
“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him”
How can they belong to Christ who do not believe in and accept his Spirit?
Whoa, Nick, I didn't realise all that…then again, I only perused an article written by Evangelion on Jesus saying he will raise up the temple in 3 days with regards to his body.
Time didn't permit me to read so I had hoped to revisit. Thank you for pointing out these important things to me.To not believe in the holy spirit is serious indeed as it nullifies Christ's sacrifice just the same in one's life. By what spirit then do they cry out, “Abba, Father” or don't they? Perhaps Evangelion and others can clarify. Regardless, I pray that we all grow into the knowledge of God and have the courage to abandon whatever is not of him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,03:13) Hi cubes,
I will show more interest in the Christadelpians when they stop denying truth, such as the existence of Satan and the reality of the Holy Spirit.
Sadly scripture says about them in Rom 8 9
“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him”
How can they belong to Christ who do not believe in and accept his Spirit?
Um, we don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit.And I see no evidence that you have to believe in Satan in order to be a true Christian.
Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,02:54) Quote (Evangelion @ Feb. 28 2005,17:41) I cordially invite you all to click here.
Thank you for the invitation, Evangelion. I stopped by briefly. Looks like you're busy harvesting your corner of the fields. Good work. I've added you to my favorites and hope to stop by again from time to time.
Thanks, it would be nice to have you along some time – even if we disagree on a few key issues.Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,14:43) To not believe in the holy spirit is serious indeed as it nullifies Christ's sacrifice just the same in one's life.
We do indeed believe in the Holy Spirit.Quote By what spirit then do they cry out, “Abba, Father” or don't they? We cry “Abba, Father” by the spirit of adoption, as Paul himself has said:
- Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 01 2005,15:15) By Evangelion: “Um, we don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. And I see no evidence that you have to believe in Satan in order to be a true Christian.”
Hi Evangelion,Good that you stopped by. And thank God that you don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. Could it be it is the gifts you don't believe in or is Nick entirely misinformed? This would be a good time to clear it up. Perhaps in the Holy Spirit thread.
As for Satan, I guess the question is not that we believe in him in the same way we believe in God, but could you say he exists given the fact that he was in the wilderness tempting Jesus and countless other mentions of him? Is there a being called Satan, according to your belief?
What other ways does your belief differ from mainstream christianity?
Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 01 2005,15:20) Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,14:43) To not believe in the holy spirit is serious indeed as it nullifies Christ's sacrifice just the same in one's life.
We do indeed believe in the Holy Spirit.Quote By what spirit then do they cry out, “Abba, Father” or don't they? We cry “Abba, Father” by the spirit of adoption, as Paul himself has said:
- Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Do you make a difference b/n the holy spirit and the spirit of adoption? If yes, can you explain your reasons?Hi cubes and Ev,
Earlier in the thread we had a series of posts from Sammo who showed the Christadelphian beliefs clearly. He also had a link on all his posts to their basic beliefs and they are quite illuminating.Belief in Satan is important to basic christianity as he is clearly shown as a created being in all his guises in the bible. He is not personalised as evil – he is the father of lies and to deny him is to partake in his works.
Rev 12. 9
” And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;he was thrown down to the earth and his angels with him..”
The same book says“… and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy God will take away his part from the tree of life, and from the holy city which are written in this book.” Rev 22.19
ps we should continue any discussion in the appropriate forum
Hi ,
2 Cor 4 1f
” Therefore , since we have this ministry , as we have received mercy , we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness OR ADULTERATING THE WORD OF GOD, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to each man's conscience in the sight of God”Trinity theory adulterates the Word of God. It contaminates it with human wisdom. It should be put aside.
ps Phil 2.14
” Do all things without grumbling or disputing,so that you prove your selves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, HOLDING FAST THE WORD OF LIFE, so that on the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain or toil in vain”We are Paul's fruit and his joy if we too walk in these ways.
Phil 4.4
” Rejoice in the Lord always ;again I will say rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let you request be known to God. And the peace of God ,which surpasses comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise dwell on these things”That is the mind of Christ.
Hi ,
If I catch my reflection in the mirror what do I see?Do I see myself?
No .
I see my reflection, an image of myself.
It shows me, in fact, the reverse of myself and whereas I have three dimensions my reflection has only two.
Am I the same substance as my relection?
No.
My reflection has no comparable substance.
Though it looks similar it is entirely different and unless it was completely separate it would not be able to reveal to me my image.
It reveals things about me, certainly, but it is not me.
Heb 1.3 speaking of Jesus in relationship to the Father;
” He is the radiance of His glory..” …not the Glory itself.
We too are made in the image of God but that does not make us God.Like the moon reflects the sun the revealed glory of the Son of God is a reflection of the glory of God, his Father.
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