The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Thomas learned from the words of his Master
Jn14
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2009,05:33)

Hi Martian, Thomas learned from the words of his Master Jn14 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verse 10 Jesus agains mentions his works as proof and Thomas did not believe Christ resurection untill he saw it actually happen. Jesus told them he would be raised but Thomas needed to see it function before He could perceive that Jesus functioned as God.

[martian]

I am outta here for a while. The snow has melted and I am getting out of the house. I might be back later or not for a while.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Thomas learned that when he looked at Jesus he saw his Lord and the God of his Lord in him.

Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2009,05:43)

Hi Martian, Thomas learned that when he looked at Jesus he saw his Lord and the God of his Lord in him. Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

How did he learn that? From a spiritual experiance or from the events that occured in Christ resurection. The context is about the physical resurection of Christ and that is what Thomas saw.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
From the words of Spirit and life he heard in Jn14

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 31 2009,13:29)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 01 2009,05:25) [quote=Lightenup,Feb. 01 2009,04:54]Martian, You assume wrong. Quote [/There fore I can assume (as you did with light) that anytime way is found in the OT it means Jesus? QUOTE] Where did I say that anytime “light” is found in the OT it means Jesus? I only spoke of the day one “light” as referring to the Son not anytime you see the word light.  Good grief.  That thinking of yours surely brings into question your thought process here, sorry. There are times throughout scripture that refer to the Son as the “Light” but certainly not ever time the word “light” is used.  You are grasping for straws here. LU By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means light. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. Talk about “my” thought process? Sorry I missed typed in the previous post — By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means a pre-existent Christ. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. You must have solid evidence to assume light means Jesus and that evidence has nothing to do with a pre-conceived idea of doctrine. Talk about “my” thought process?

Hi Martian,
My stance on the “Light” of day one being the Son of God is a theory of which I developed after asking God what “Firstborn of all creation” meant.  During that quest, one day when I was homeschooling my son and we were reviewing creation, I asked him what happened on day one.  My son replied “Let there be light,” then at that very moment, I heard in my left ear, “You are the light of the world.”  Anyway, I made the connection of “Firstborn of all creation” and “Let there be light” because of that quest and hearing those spoken words in my ear.

I tested that theory over and over and I believe that it stands up to scripture.

I hope you enjoyed your sunshine today!
LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,09:00)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 31 2009,13:29) Quote (martian @ Feb. 01 2009,05:25) [quote=Lightenup,Feb. 01 2009,04:54]Martian, You assume wrong. Quote [/There fore I can assume (as you did with light) that anytime way is found in the OT it means Jesus? QUOTE] Where did I say that anytime “light” is found in the OT it means Jesus? I only spoke of the day one “light” as referring to the Son not anytime you see the word light.  Good grief.  That thinking of yours surely brings into question your thought process here, sorry. There are times throughout scripture that refer to the Son as the “Light” but certainly not ever time the word “light” is used.  You are grasping for straws here. LU By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means light. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. Talk about “my” thought process? Sorry I missed typed in the previous post — By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means a pre-existent Christ. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. You must have solid evidence to assume light means Jesus and that evidence has nothing to do with a pre-conceived idea of doctrine. Talk about “my” thought process? Hi Martian, My stance on the “Light” of day one being the Son of God is a theory of which I developed after asking God what “Firstborn of all creation” meant.  During that quest, one day when I was homeschooling my son and we were reviewing creation, I asked him what happened on day one.  My son replied “Let there be light,” then at that very moment, I heard in my left ear, “You are the light of the world.”  Anyway, I made the connection of “Firstborn of all creation” and “Let there be light” because of that quest and hearing those spoken words in my ear. I tested that theory over and over and I believe that it stands up to scripture. I hope you enjoyed your sunshine today! LU

I will be the last one to discount a word from theLord, however thee is the scripture that says we have a more sure word of prophecy (scripture)
As to your idea that it stands up to scripture it is not valid to use scripture as proof if the scriptues are in question. In other words you cannot use one scripture that is in question to back up another that is in question.

[942767]

Hi LU:

Quote

25 “Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 ” Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27 “But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28 “The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.” Now doesn't this sound alot like Hebrews 1:10-12 25 “Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 ” Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27 “But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.

These verses of scripture are similar but no, they are not the same.

In the verses of scriptures in the Psalm:

Quote

18 This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD. 19 For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21 That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23 He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24 I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations

LORD HERE = יהוה Yĕhovah

In Hebrews 1:10 although NASU capitalizes LORD here it translates = κύριος kyrios

And regarding the following:

Quote

Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU Who is the “Me” and the “I” in the above passage Marty, not Cyrus that is the “Him.” Also, it is not the “Lord GOD” that is sending the “Him” and “His Spirit.” The answer is the Son of God as we see in Hebrews 1:10-12

The I and the Me refer to the LORD = יהוה Yĕhovah in this verse:

Quote

14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon

And in the following verse:

Quote

And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit

The Lord God = אדני 'Adonay יהוה Yĕhovih

You say:

Quote

He has hands! Here in Isaiah it speaks of His right hand, also He speaks, also one can come near to Him.

This does not prove that he pre-existed in a body. The scriptures also state that the Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God, and the scriptures state that he is invisible, but when God is talking to Jesus he actually does have hands, but why would God be letting him know this if Jesus pre-existed. He would have already know this if he pre-existed. Would he not?

But the gospel of John states:

Quote

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

And “by” here = 1) through

a) of place

1) with

2) in

b) of time

1) throughout

2) during

c) of means

1) by

2) by the means of

2) through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1) by reason of

2) on account of

3) because of for this reason

4) therefore

5) on this account

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Marty,
I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify. Let me try to make it clearer. Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16?

Isa 48:12-16

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASU

LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 31 2009,17:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,09:00) Quote (martian @ Jan. 31 2009,13:29) Quote (martian @ Feb. 01 2009,05:25) [quote=Lightenup,Feb. 01 2009,04:54]Martian, You assume wrong. Quote [/There fore I can assume (as you did with light) that anytime way is found in the OT it means Jesus? QUOTE] Where did I say that anytime “light” is found in the OT it means Jesus? I only spoke of the day one “light” as referring to the Son not anytime you see the word light.  Good grief.  That thinking of yours surely brings into question your thought process here, sorry. There are times throughout scripture that refer to the Son as the “Light” but certainly not ever time the word “light” is used.  You are grasping for straws here. LU By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means light. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. Talk about “my” thought process? Sorry I missed typed in the previous post — By what authority do you say that light in Gen 1 means a pre-existent Christ. Do you do it based on doctrine or do you have some scriptural evidence that proves light is equal to Jesus. It appears that you have a doctrine that you want to prove and you find a scripture that you can force fit into it and claim it as proof. You can't just decide it means this here and does not mean it there because you need some proof. You must have solid evidence to assume light means Jesus and that evidence has nothing to do with a pre-conceived idea of doctrine. Talk about “my” thought process? Hi Martian, My stance on the “Light” of day one being the Son of God is a theory of which I developed after asking God what “Firstborn of all creation” meant.  During that quest, one day when I was homeschooling my son and we were reviewing creation, I asked him what happened on day one.  My son replied “Let there be light,” then at that very moment, I heard in my left ear, “You are the light of the world.”  Anyway, I made the connection of “Firstborn of all creation” and “Let there be light” because of that quest and hearing those spoken words in my ear. I tested that theory over and over and I believe that it stands up to scripture. I hope you enjoyed your sunshine today! LU I will be the last one to discount a word from theLord, however thee is the scripture that says we have a more sure word of prophecy (scripture) As to your idea that it stands up to scripture it is not valid to use scripture as proof if the scriptues are in question. In other words you cannot use one scripture that is in question to back up  another that is in question.

Hi Martian,
All that I know is, I had a question about a scripture, I asked God what it meant and God gave me understanding. Many scriptures that are in question on this board were clarified through that one quest. It was like the secret code to unlock some mysteries. I will treasure the experience because it gave me much better understanding.

LU

[KangarooJack]

Martian,
I have intentionally steered away from this thread because I felt it was getting too tense between us, at least on my side it was. I am taking a breather but will come back. I want to make sure I emulate the spirit of Christ.

thinker

[meerkat]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17)

Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify. Let me try to make it clearer. Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU

I think the “I” being referenced here – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me ………. (and continuing in verse 17 “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself?

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,06:18)

Martian, I have intentionally steered away from this thread because I felt it was getting too tense between us, at least on my side it was. I am taking a breather but will come back. I want to make sure I emulate the spirit of Christ. thinker

I appreciate your candor. I too have had those times before. I have left sometimes for months at a time. I hope I have not caused you any stress.
Please take care of yourself.
It has helped me to step back and realise this is more of a game then a ministry.

[martian]

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,07:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself?

Here is web page that has an ineresting point about Isa 48.

http://uk.geocities.com/petepettingell/isaiah7.html

[942767]

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,07:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself?

Hi LU:

I believe that Meerkat is correct in this. The I and me here refer to Isaiah:

Here is the way the NLT translates and paraphrases this passage of scriptures:

Quote

Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last. Isa 48:13 It was my hand that laid the foundations of the earth. The palm of my right hand spread out the heavens above. I spoke, and they came into being. Isa 48:14 “Have any of your idols ever told you this? Come, all of you, and listen: `The LORD has chosen Cyrus as his ally. He will use him to put an end to the empire of Babylon, destroying the Babylonian [fn] armies.' Isa 48:15 I have said it: I am calling Cyrus! I will send him on this errand and will help him succeed. Isa 48:16 Come closer and listen. I have always told you plainly what would happen so you would have no trouble understanding.” And now the Sovereign LORD and his Spirit have sent me with this message: Isa 48:17 “The LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, says: I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is good and leads you along the paths you should follow.

[martian]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,09:55)

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,07:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself? Hi LU: I believe that Meerkat is correct in this.  The I and me here refer to Isaiah: Here is the way the NLT translates and paraphrases this passage of scriptures: Quote Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.   Isa 48:13 It was my hand that laid the foundations of the earth. The palm of my right hand spread out the heavens above. I spoke, and they came into being.   Isa 48:14 “Have any of your idols ever told you this? Come, all of you, and listen: `The LORD has chosen Cyrus as his ally. He will use him to put an end to the empire of Babylon, destroying the Babylonian [fn] armies.'   Isa 48:15 I have said it: I am calling Cyrus! I will send him on this errand and will help him succeed.   Isa 48:16 Come closer and listen. I have always told you plainly what would happen so you would have no trouble understanding.” And now the Sovereign LORD and his Spirit have sent me with this message:   Isa 48:17 “The LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, says: I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is good and leads you along the paths you should follow.

Also good points

[Lightenup]

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 01 2009,15:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself?

Hello Meerkat and all,
Thanks for your input. I found three different commentaries on the verse and they all say that it speaks of the Son that is the one being sent in verse 16. I agree with that, see what you think.

Commentary on Isaiah 48:16-22
(Read Isaiah 48:16-22)
The Holy Spirit qualifies for service; and those may speak boldly, whom God and his Spirit send. This is to be applied to Christ. He was sent, and he had the Spirit without measure. ..
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=23&c=48

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
16. not . in secret-(Isa 45:19). Jehovah foretold Cyrus' advent, not with the studied ambiguity of heathen oracles, but plainly.
from the time, &c.-From the moment that the purpose began to be accomplished in the raising up of Cyrus I was present.
sent me-The prophet here speaks, claiming attention to his announcement as to Cyrus, on the ground of his mission from God and His Spirit. But he speaks not in his own person so much as in that of Messiah, to whom alone in the fullest sense the words apply (Isa 61:1; Joh 10:36). Plainly, Isa 49:1, which is the continuation of the forty-eighth chapter, from Isa 48:16, where the change of speaker from God (Isa 48:1, 12-15) begins, is the language of Messiah. Lu 4:1, 14, 18, shows that the Spirit combined with the Father in sending the Son: therefore “His Spirit” is nominative to “sent,” not accusative, following it.
http://jfb.biblecommenter.com/isaiah/48.htm

And now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me “And now the Lord JEHOVAH hath sent me, and his Spirit”] tiv estin o en tw hsaiw legwn, kai nun kuriov apesteile me kai to pneuma autou; en w, amfibolou ontov tou rhtou, poteron o pathr kai to Æagion pneuma apesteilan tou ihsoun, h o pathr apesteile ton te criston kai to Æagion pneuma to deuteron estin alhqev. “Who is it that saith in Isaiah, And now the Lord hath sent me and his Spirit? in which, as the expression is ambiguous, is it the Father and the Holy Spirit who have sent Jesus; or the Father, who hath sent both Christ and the Holy Spirit. The latter is the true interpretation.” -Origen cont. Cels. lib. i. I have kept to the order of the words of the original, on purpose that the ambiguity, which Origen remarks in the Version of the Septuagint, and which is the same in the Hebrew might still remain; and the sense whlch he gives to it, be offered to the reader's judgment, which is wholly excluded in our translation.
http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeisa48.htm

LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2009,15:45)

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 01 2009,15:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself? Hello Meerkat and all, Thanks for your input.  I found three different commentaries on the verse and they all say that it speaks of the Son that is the one being sent in verse 16.  I agree with that, see what you think. Commentary on Isaiah 48:16-22 (Read Isaiah 48:16-22) The Holy Spirit qualifies for service; and those may speak boldly, whom God and his Spirit send. This is to be applied to Christ. He was sent, and he had the Spirit without measure. .. http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=23&c=48 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 16. not . in secret-(Isa 45:19). Jehovah foretold Cyrus' advent, not with the studied ambiguity of heathen oracles, but plainly. from the time, &c.-From the moment that the purpose began to be accomplished in the raising up of Cyrus I was present. sent me-The prophet here speaks, claiming attention to his announcement as to Cyrus, on the ground of his mission from God and His Spirit. But he speaks not in his own person so much as in that of Messiah, to whom alone in the fullest sense the words apply (Isa 61:1; Joh 10:36). Plainly, Isa 49:1, which is the continuation of the forty-eighth chapter, from Isa 48:16, where the change of speaker from God (Isa 48:1, 12-15) begins, is the language of Messiah. Lu 4:1, 14, 18, shows that the Spirit combined with the Father in sending the Son: therefore “His Spirit” is nominative to “sent,” not accusative, following it. http://jfb.biblecommenter.com/isaiah/48.htm And now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me “And now the Lord JEHOVAH hath sent me, and his Spirit”] tiv estin o en tw hsaiw legwn, kai nun kuriov apesteile me kai to pneuma autou; en w, amfibolou ontov tou rhtou, poteron o pathr kai to Æagion pneuma apesteilan tou ihsoun, h o pathr apesteile ton te criston kai to Æagion pneuma? to deuteron estin alhqev. “Who is it that saith in Isaiah, And now the Lord hath sent me and his Spirit? in which, as the expression is ambiguous, is it the Father and the Holy Spirit who have sent Jesus; or the Father, who hath sent both Christ and the Holy Spirit. The latter is the true interpretation.” -Origen cont. Cels. lib. i. I have kept to the order of the words of the original, on purpose that the ambiguity, which Origen remarks in the Version of the Septuagint, and which is the same in the Hebrew might still remain; and the sense whlch he gives to it, be offered to the reader's judgment, which is wholly excluded in our translation. http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeisa48.htm LU

Comentaries are by their nature simply the opinions of those that write them. As is the case for many references they can (and generally are) biased by the predetermined doctrines of the author. They do not constitute proof of any kind. All this interpretaion is doing is relaying the traditional beliefs of the church. Beliefs that have their roots in the Gnosticism and dualism of the second and third century.
A one-sentence description of Gnosticism is; A religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the God of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body. Gnostics conjured up the idea that Christ was a spiritual being in a physical shell in order to avoid the concept of him having an “Evil Physical Body of the “Evil physical realm”.

Dualism is a Greek Philosophy that takes gnosticim even farther. It teaches there are two realms, one evil and one holy. Dualists believe that only the transcendental spiritual realm of God like forces is holy. The lower natural earthly realm was considered evil and nothing good could be of that world.

When Christianity spread to the Greek thinking world it was heavily influenced by their philosophies. Many students of Greek philosophy were being saved and as such brought their concepts into the church. As is often the case some so called “scholars”, from this period forward, began to interpret scripture with preconceived ideas of a gnostic or dualistic world. From gnosticim came the concept of Jesus being a separate God from the God of the Old Testament. From Dualism came the concept that Jesus could never be fully of the natural realm or fully human. His humanity needed to be augmented in some way to avoid him being of the evil natural realm.

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 01 2009,17:29)

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,07:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2009,18:17) Marty, I do not think you know the “I” and “me” that I am asking you to identify.  Let me try to make it clearer.  Who is the “I” and the “me” referred to in verse 16? Isa 48:12-16 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” NASU LU I think the “I” being referenced here  – the one who was sent to tell Israel of their impending destruction if they did not keep Gods commandments was Isaiah. He has been saying the words of the Lord God up to that point   – when Isaiah say “and now The Lord God has sent me  ………. (and continuing in verse 17  “Thus saith the Lord ………..” isn't it Isaiah referring to himself? Here is web page that has an ineresting point about Isa 48. http://uk.geocities.com/petepettingell/isaiah7.html

Hi all,
I just want to point out something here. In the quote here Martian is suggesting I look at this website, a commentary on Isaiah 48 which ,by the way, does not back up the recent ideas of others on here which Martian comments as “all good points.” And then when I quote 3 sources that are all saying what I have thought even before I read their commentaries, Martian's rebuttal is that commentaries are no proof but opinion and stem from a bias. So he uses a commentary and suggest it will help us get the answer but dismisses three other commentaries because they can not help us since they are tainted with the roots of evil doctrine. Well, Martian, there is no end in sight here with coming to agreement with you and your bias but I have observed that all these commentaries agree that the one sent is the promised Servant, the Son and not Isaiah. Sorry if that disappoints you. The Son laid the foundation of the earth and God, the Father agrees in Hebrews 1. This is proof of pre-existence for those with open hearts, imo.

LU

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