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Excellent,
So the unity between the Father and the Son compared with the unity in the church would be best expressed as that between the Apostles who were the first fruit of this teaching.
They remained individual beings.
They were united in passion and purpose but very individual in style and approach.They had different roles in the body of Christ with none complete in gifting but all complementary working together as Christ.
Only of Jesus could it be said
” In him all the fullness of deity dwelled in bodily form”Hi bic,
Also the Son worships and serves and prays to his God the Father. The Father certainly does not worship and pray to his Son.The Holy Spirit does not worship Jesus but in him and us serves Jesus and intercedes for us in prayer to the Father.[Rom 8.26.Jude 20]
Again inequality.
The worst part of the trinity doctrine is that it separates God from us where Jesus came to bring us into an intimate family relationship with him and his father. It enshrouds God with mystery and makes Him impossible to reach
What use is the theory? No trinitarian I know prays to or worships the trinity as such. If it is not useful even in this way then who needs it at all? Theologians?
PS only the Father knows the day of Jesus's return and Jesus himself does not. That is surely not equality.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2005,21:07) “The worst part of the trinity doctrine is that it separates God from us where Jesus came to bring us into an intimate family relationship with him and his father. It enshrouds God with mystery and makes Him impossible to reach” Absolutely right. It robs Christians of their victory in Jesus.
Welcome BE,
Thanks for the support. It is nice to know someone realises that what we do here is not to pick holes in a doctrine for the sake of picking holes but to show people how much false doctrine robs us of the real joyful meaning of salvation.Nick Hassan said:
Quote Only of Jesus could it be said
” In him all the fullness of deity dwelled in bodily form”Well said.
The sun and the moon are representative of Jesus and the Church, respectively. Just as the moon has no light of itself but merely reflects the light of the sun, so too is the Church merely a reflection of Jesus.
Again, we are lamps and the Holy Spirit is the oil. We have no light in ourselves. Without oil, we sit in darkness. The Holy Spirit is the oil that fuels our lamps so that our light may shine forth before others.
May God and His Son receive all the glory.
Yes, Good stuff. I know the Jewish sages compare the moon with the Messiah reflecting the far greater glory of the sun representing the Father.
The oil of the Spirit is also the oil of anointing and the oil of healing. Yeshua is the Christ, the anointed one.
We are vessels of varied types that hold the oil and we are temples of the Spirit. The oil does not run out. The vessel allows light of the burning oil from the lamp to give light to the world and the lamp should not be hidden but put on a stand or be a beaconlight for the searchers.
The light from the lamp shows us the path and reveals the hazards and fierce lions and wolves. They fear the light so it keeps us safe so long as we keep moving and do not fall asleep on the journey.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2005,22:21) Quote Also the Son worships and serves and prays to his God the Father. The Father certainly does not worship and pray to his Son. Quote PS only the Father knows the day of Jesus's return and Jesus himself does not. That is surely not equality. Phillipians 2
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Yes MM,
What are you saying about this verse? It is not plain as it is a verse that establishes clearly the situation of Jesus and does not support trinitarian doctrine.I do not know what you imply but this is what this verse says to me.It say the Logos had divine nature but was not the Father.
It say he had completely separate nature from the Father.
It says he had free will.
It says he could have challenged God and tried to grasp at equality but chose not to.
It says he chose instead complete submission to his God, the Father.
It says he obeyed the Father and was sent from heaven to earth.
It says he sacrificed his divine glory and abilities to be exactly as one of us born of a woman.
It says he died as a man in complete submission to the Father.Now this does not fit trinity thinking because they say he is of one substance with the Father so did not have an independant nature, free will and abilities. They would say he would then be sent by himself and obey himself. There would be no opportunity to become equal with the Father as they are already of one equal substance.
Quote (bic @ Feb. 21 2005,04:05) Nick Hassan said: Quote Only of Jesus could it be said
” In him all the fullness of deity dwelled in bodily form”Well said.
The sun and the moon are representative of Jesus and the Church, respectively. Just as the moon has no light of itself but merely reflects the light of the sun, so too is the Church merely a reflection of Jesus.
Again, we are lamps and the Holy Spirit is the oil. We have no light in ourselves. Without oil, we sit in darkness. The Holy Spirit is the oil that fuels our lamps so that our light may shine forth before others.
May God and His Son receive all the glory.
I appreciate your sun-moon analogy but I have often found that it is not easy to pin down just exactly what they represent.May I ask how you arrive at the conclusion that the moon is the church apart from your own creative thinking (I am not saying you should not hypothesize in such a manner but how do you know it is right)? Do you have any Biblical evidence from which you draw your conclusions? I perceive the moon is like our own a reflective spirit (like the one in our hearts) that does not shine on its own while the sun is like the true Spirit of God which makes the moon shine, the sun being the source of all light. See Romans 8:14.
I would say the earth represents the church in the analogy and it is always the earth which is the SHE.
I understand the moon is the governing light of the Law and the ministry of darkenss and death where the sun is the governing light of christianity and the ministry of light and life.
Awaiting your insights…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,09:39) It say the Logos had divine nature but was not the Father.
It say he had completely separate nature from the Father.
It says he had free will.
It says he could have challenged God and tried to grasp at equality but chose not to.
It says he chose instead complete submission to his God, the Father.
It says he obeyed the Father and was sent from heaven to earth.
It says he sacrificed his divine glory and abilities to be exactly as one of us born of a woma It say the Logos had divine nature but was not the Father.n.
It says he died as a man in complete submission to the Father.
I read it this way:It says the Logos had divine nature but was not the Father.
It says he had the same nature as the Father (form of deity) but was a separate identity from the Father.
It says he had free will to choose.
It says he could have chosen to cling to his noble estate of being in divine form
It says he chose instead complete submission to his God, the Father, and emptied himself of his divine form (humbled himself of) and took the form of a human.Here are my reasons:
hi liljon,
Your words deny many, many scriptures but you seem quite content to stay unmoved by that weight of evidence. You have your own path.Quote (liljon @ Feb. 21 2005,18:20) Jesus is YHWH
Rev 2:23
and is the true god
1 John 5:20
to deny this is to deny scripture
Jesus is not identified as YHVH in either one of those verses. The only thing that is being denied is an errant interpretation on your part.And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is TRUE; and we are in Him who is TRUE, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the TRUE God and eternal life.
Him who is True
Him who is True
His Son Jesus Christ
This is
the True God= God, the Father of Jesus
The TRUE God, “Him who is TRUE” has a Son named Jesus.
It is obvious here, if you read it is context, that the True God is “Him who is True” and He has a Son named Jesus. That would be the Father.
Hi BE,
So you say that Yeshua was of the SAME divine nature as the Father. But Hebrews 1 says he is
“the exact representation of His nature”
He is the image of the Father and not the same substance as the Father. He was begotten from the Father and was with the Father. He was not equal but of lesser glory.
Just as the moon, like the sun gives light to earth, it is of lesser glory than the sun and cannot shine without the sun.1Cor15.41
” There is one glory of the sun and and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars..” Stars, of course symbolise angels.[rev 1.20]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,19:05) Hi BE,
So you see that Yeshua was of the SAME divine nature as the Father. But Hebrews 1 says he is “the exact representation of His nature” He is the image of the Father and not the same substance as the Father. He was begotten from the Father and was with the Father. He was not equal but of lesser glory.
Just as the moon, like the sun gives light to earth, it is of lesser glory than the sun and cannot shine without the sun.1Cor15.41
” There is one glory of the sun and and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars..” Stars, of course symbolise angels.[rev 1.20]
No I do NOT say that Jesus WAS the same nature of the Father. He wasn't.I say he now IS the same nature as the Father.
The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature.
The Risen Jesus is now Holy Spirit by nature.That is what Colossians 2:9 means. It is not a reference to what Jesus was incarnate but what Jesus became in resurrection. And this is why the risen Jesus could breath the Spirit into his disciples.
We will all share the same divine nature of the Father too when we are raised. That is the point of 1 corinthians 15. However, this does not mean we can be identified as “God” anymore than it means Jesus can be identified as “God.” Sharing natures does not amount to sharing identifies anymore than sharing human nature with the President makes me the President.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,19:05) Hi BE,
So you see that Yeshua was of the SAME divine nature as the Father. But Hebrews 1 says he is “the exact representation of His nature” He is the image of the Father and not the same substance as the Father. He was begotten from the Father and was with the Father. He was not equal but of lesser glory.
Just as the moon, like the sun gives light to earth, it is of lesser glory than the sun and cannot shine without the sun.1Cor15.41
” There is one glory of the sun and and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars..” Stars, of course symbolise angels.[rev 1.20]
No I do NOT say that Jesus WAS the same nature of the Father. He wasn't.I say he now IS the same nature as the Father due to his resurrection. Spirit begets Spirit. See also Acts 13:30- 33.
The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature.
The Risen Jesus is now Holy Spirit by nature.That is what Colossians 2:9 means. It is not a reference to what Jesus was incarnate but what Jesus became in resurrection. And this is why the risen Jesus could breath the Spirit into his disciples.
We will all share the same divine nature of the Father too when we are raised. That is the point of 1 corinthians 15. However, this does not mean we can be identified as “God” anymore than it means Jesus can be identified as “God.” Sharing natures does not amount to sharing identifies anymore than sharing human nature with the President makes me the President.
Hi b.e,
I say Yeshua still has his own spirit and soul.What of the soul of Jesus? Are you saying he becomes of the same substance of the Father and loses his individual character and soul?
Why do you say Coll 2.9 refers to the resurrected state? I do not think so.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,19:25) Hi b.e,
I say Yeshua still has his own spirit and soul.What of the soul of Jesus? Are you saying he becomes of the same substance of the Father and loses his individual character and soul?
Why do you say Coll 2.9 refers to the resurrected state? I do not think so.
Hi Nick:
We humans don't “have” souls; we ARE souls.
Jesus “had” a spirit in him that kept him alive just as we all do. When that spirit leaves us we are dead, just as it happened with Jesus.
In reference to the physical resurrection body, Paul says:
“The last Adam became a living soul; the last Adam life-giving Spirit”
The incarnate and unrisen soul Jesus was a human body kept alive by a spirit in him. The risen Jesus is a human body that has itself become a spiritual body, that is, a body animated by the life-giving Spirit of God. That is Paul's point. The risen body does not “have” Spirit with it but IS Spirit such that the two become one new creastion. There is no need or point to a risen body “having” a spirit to keep it alive when that body itself becomes Spirit.
As for Colossians 2:9, both the verb tense of the grammar and the immediate context makes it plainly clear Paul is referring to the risen Jesus. Also see Col 1:18-19 for more.
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