The Trinity Doctrine

[Cubes]

Quote (Guest @ Feb. 16 2005,06:52)

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 14 2005,22:22) I am a bit more ignorant of the holy spirit, and I feel neither confident to call him a person nor a “force.”  My questions resulted in some answers which led to a poem I wrote many years ago.  I know he proceeds from the father and indwells Christ and all who are Christ's.  I think of him as our spiritual DNA and that by him, we are one with Christ and the Father.  I know he seals us, teaches, comforts…and by him we cry “Abba, Father.”  Is he a person?  I cannot say.  Shall we see him in heaven on his own Throne?  I doubt it.  I believe he would be unseen and in us even then that God may be all in all.   Hi Cubes, You are not alone in this forum in not having a good understanding of the Holy Spirit or any confidence to share sound exegesis (and I include myself). From my perspective, the topic hasn't really been confronted at all here. What do you think of this verse: Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[a] Father.” By the way I like your posts, you clearly have a warm personality, and it shows. God bless.

Hello MM,

May God bless you too, and thank you. It's easy to love those who love God…it's loving our enemies that's a challenge, but even then, in God we shall do valiantly.

The holy spirit. I woke up today with this thought: In Psalm 51:11, David prayed to God “Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me.”
The holy spirit is God's to give. David could have addressed the holy spirit directly, but he addressed God whose is the spirit. And Jesus had the fullness of the holy spirit but it was the father he addressed in prayer.

For the holy spirit to be taken from David or anyone, would mean eternal separation from God.

I am like the blind man whom Jesus healed: Whether or not he is a prophet I cannot say, but I know I was blind and now I see! All I know is that the holy spirit comes from God and that through Christ and the ministry of the holy spirit, I am related to God, empowered and in communion with God.

Galatians 4:6: Could that be related to what is meant by Jesus being the everlasting father in Isaiah 9? We have been redeemed to God through him. Is it another way of saying we have the nature of Christ? Ultimately, it goes back to the father. I don't know what that means for sure at this stage. This is my understanding so far. I'll update as I know more.

[Proclaimer]

Good post Cubes,

My understanding of the everlasting father is that the word 'father' is the same one used in reference to Abraham. It's like Yeshua is the everlasting Abraham. He is greater than Abraham as we was before him.

Even Trinitarians are not suppose to believe that Jesus is the Father, but many use that verse to show that Jesus is God, even though their own doctrine condemns that thinking.

Also it doesn't say that Jesus is the Heavenly Father.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2005,12:43)

Thank you and bless you cubes for your beautiful sharing.Yes I believe you have experienced the wind of the Spirit as evidence of the work of God among men. If you have been given these wonderful evidences then do make sure you are reborn into Yeshua. To say you believe you are is not proof before the Master that this is the case. Just because Cornelius and the listeners to Peter in Acts 10 manifested the Spirit did not mean that baptism was not necesary as can be seen by Peter's reaction. All must be born again of water and the Spirit. Though scripture says in Mk 16 that signs such as healing will follow believers you still have to bear in mind those who worked miracles in the name of Jesus in Mt 7. 21f who the Lord said to ” I never knew you” Even Yeshua has eternal 'witnesses' before God. 1 Jn 5.6″ This is the one who came by water and blood,Jesus Christ;not with the water only but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water and the blood”

Hi Nick: I am confident that I am born again.

I have believed the holy scriptures about how God sent his only begotten son into the world to die a sinless death so that those who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life. And with my mouth I do make that confession. And Jesus says that if we love him, we would obey his commandments (which are the father's commandments), and abide in his word, which I do. I have an active relationship with the father in Jesus–and he is a daily part of my life, and in the moment to moment decision making. In challenges, I remember his words that say, “he who endures…” and that is about it in a nutshell.

The baptism of the holy spirit, I have not had any spectacular experiences but one of my favorite passages of scripture is Romans 8 in its entirity. The things that are spoken thereof concerning the children of God are things that ring true in my heart concerning my relationship with God.

Thus I am dead to myself and alive to Christ (not that I have entirely apprehended but I press on).

[Cubes]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 16 2005,12:52)

Yes Cubes, This is how God leads us and prepares us. It's a sign that God is leading us. I found a similar thing when I started a job teaching an IT course. I didn't know everything, but it seemed that whatever new thing I had just learned would be tested the very next day by a student asking about that very thing. I was worried when I started this job that I wouldn't have enough knowledge to fill up a 6 month full-time course. But it worked out perfectly and the students had nothing but praise for my work. My employer even gave me a raise in recognition for my effort. But the truth was, I went into a very hard job with little resources from the college. It was a private college for adults but the course I taught had no real curriculum or materials. When I realised the truth of the situation I said to God that I was going to resign immediately, (before teaching my first class), and that God would have to put something in the way of me walking to the bosses office and resigning, if he wanted me to stay. Yes God put someone in my way. I was stopped by a teacher and questioned in a weird way as to how I was feeling etc. I eventually told the teacher what I was about to. She just encouraged me and said that I must be crazy because I was  perfect for the job. So I stayed and prepared the course for the next week before entering the classroom. I started off teaching what I knew and stretched myself to learn new things to teach after I ran out of my current knowledge. The amazing thing was I was so amazed at the times I would learn something new and then the next day a student would ask me about it. I actually never remember not having an answer once. I have seen this in other times too, but not so as abvious as when I had that teaching job. Praise God because the truth be known I was really scared of talking in front of groups of people. It had always been a really bad fear that I had since childhood. But I had to face this fear with faith in God alone. All I could do was pray. It turned out to be the most rewarding job I had ever done and one that was so much fun that I felt like I wasn't working at all some days. But fear nearly ended it before it began. This job also changed me as a person and gave me confidence to speak in front of crowds of people. I can only thank God for the strength he gave me at that time and the amazing way he lead me and changed me.

t8, you and Nick are encouraging. I will start to write down these occurrences. I don't know what IT means but it is clear that God went before you, especially seeing you were reliant on him. And like Moses, you may have had a fear of speaking, but it seems God is using you anyway in those areas through this website!

[NickHassan]

and water cubes?

Romans 10 does not over ride Jn 3.3-5,Mk 16.16.and Jas 2. 19.
Those that believe Jesus obey Jesus.

The true fulfillment of Rom 10.13, if you check Joel 2.28-32, is in the great tribulation when possibly the saved have been raptured away and there are no believers left to baptise anymore.You want to ensure your place before then and enjoy the sabbath rest of Heb 4, the 1000 yr reign of Jesus on earth[Rev 20 1-4].

However take a blessing from
Mal 3.16f

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2005,15:57)

and water cubes? Romans 10 does not over ride Jn 3.3-5,Mk 16.16.and Jas 2. 19. Those that believe Jesus obey Jesus. The true fulfillment of Rom 10.13, if you check Joel 2.28-32, is in the great tribulation when possibly the saved have been raptured away and there are no believers left to baptise anymore.You want to ensure your place before then and enjoy the sabbath rest of Heb 4, the 1000 yr reign of Jesus on earth[Rev 20 1-4]. However take a blessing from Mal 3.16f

Thank you for the blessing, and to you and all who have loved his appearing on this board.

I was baptised by water several years ago.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
it is a popular misconception that the commands of Jesus are the OT commands.

No Jesus makes some commands of his own

You must be born again of water and the Spirit
and
Believe in me
and
Abide in me
and
Love one another as I have loved you.

The OT commands  are part of the Covenant with the Jews . We are not Jews but gentiles.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 16 2005,20:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2005,15:57) and water cubes? Romans 10 does not over ride Jn 3.3-5,Mk 16.16.and Jas 2. 19. Those that believe Jesus obey Jesus. The true fulfillment of Rom 10.13, if you check Joel 2.28-32, is in the great tribulation when possibly the saved have been raptured away and there are no believers left to baptise anymore.You want to ensure your place before then and enjoy the sabbath rest of Heb 4, the 1000 yr reign of Jesus on earth[Rev 20 1-4]. However take a blessing from Mal 3.16f Thank you for the blessing, and to you and all who have loved his appearing on this board. I was baptised by water several years ago.

aaaagh . thank you cubes.

You are a blessing to us all. Bless you faithful servant.

[Cubes]

Quote (Guest @ Feb. 14 2005,07:16)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2005,06:23) Quote (Guest @ Feb. 14 2005,23:57) what is a believer then Nick?, some one who believes in 2 Gods (or one God and one lesser god, i.e. polytheism), like you do. If that is the case, then I guess I am a non-believer. Argue with scripture not Nick. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6   5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Scripture is what you do not agree with MM. t8, 1 Cor. 8:5-6, NASB For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him,”. NIV “For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live,” Notice the word “so-called.”  Paul is not teaching us that there are many gods, he is teaching us that there are many that are “called” gods.  You can see this elsewhere when Paul says in Gal. 4:8, “Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.”  The Bible teaches that there is only one God, although people will always believe in other gods.  In reality these other gods do not exist.

The Hebrews only speak of and believe in One God, not 3 in 1, which is what I believe also.  In these passages in Daniel, Nechadnezzar and one other individual refers to holy Gods.  Then again he calls Daniel, a Master Magician.  Anyway, I think these relate to John 1:1 — but all scripture taken as a whole, Jesus himself worships only the Most High God:

———-
Dan 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, [saying],

Dan 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

Dan 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise [men] of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou [art] able; for the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee.

Dan 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, , thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, [and] soothsayers;

———–

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The opinions of pagan kings and queens about God are interesting but not to be accepted as factual.
Otherwise we would also have to accept the opinion of the Jews that Jesus had a demon[Mk 3 22] and the possible concerns the family of Jesus had that he might be mentally ill [Mk 3.31f].
That is clearly nonsense. Pagans speak from their polytheistic background.
But we can take it from their reaction that they were aware of a supernatural influence beyond their experience and respected it.

[NickHassan]

Hi
Ps 2.7
” I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord. He said to me
'You are my son.Today I have begotten thee'”

This is a pivotal scripture. It is used to define the beginning of the separate existence of God's son. All of us who are parents understand what is it to have children. They are like us, their parents, but it is plain that they have a separate existence.

We are told in Eph 3.14f that the family relationship between the Father and the Son is similar to our relationship with our children-similarity but separation and difference.

Now God is not alone but has a son in His exact image. He is not the same as an image can never be the same as the original.

Now two beings can relate to one another.

And they are completely and utterly separate.

Now and only now does it have meaning that the Son can obey and
be sent and
worship and
serve his Father.

Trinity doctrine denies this.

It says that the son is still of one substance with the Father and so there has never been true separation. That is why a new term of God the Son is fashioned because the son is still really the Father in another form by their understanding. That is why the Father and Son are claimed to be equal. That insults the Father by reducing his glory to that of His Son.

This causes us problems too. By this understanding we are at a huge disadvantage. How can we hope to follow Jesus if he never was really like us? How can he really understand us if he was always so superior? If he always was the God then we cannot hope to walk in those steps.

Also the bible says our individual salvation depends on our developing a relationship to God through the Son of God. We cannot approach God himself but need an intermediary.

Trinity doctrine denies this intermediary exists separate from the Father but says Jesus is the one true God.

Trinity doctrine tries to show that relating to our God is just like any other godless religion. God remains distant and mysterious and separate from us and we attempt to establish a relationship with Him ourselves through own own efforts in prayer.

That denies the glorious individual reality of the Son of God and the purpose of his brave rescue mission to try to save us. He is one with the Father in mind and heart and spirit but they are not 'one and the same'

That is why the concept must be rejected. It is a barrier between God and us as it insults and denies the separate beings of the Father and His Son and distorts the work of the Spirit of God, the Bible. This is why those who are reborn into Christ must separate themselves from this evil. If we are shown clearly that it is wrong then our loyalty to God requires we act on that truth.
Ps 97.10
1Thess 5.22.

“Come out of her my people.. that you may not share in her iniquity …and her plagues”

[liljon]

The Father and the Son are not two different beings
Rev 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jesus is YHVH which is somehing the bible teaches and he church has always believed

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
Certainly if the same work is ascribed to God and the Son of God one explanation is that they are the same being. Those that accept the doctrine of Modalism will make this claim.

That explanation does not cope with the scriptures that show the Father and Son together as separate beings and there are plenty of them. Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father as Stephen saw, the Lamb with God in Revelation etc etc

There must be a deeper explanation.There is. God delegates.

All will face the judgement seat of God.True? Yes.

But God has given all judgement to the Son.

And the Son has given men roles in judgement too. eg Moses, the Apostles, the saved.

All these things are true and there is no conflict between them.

And the Son is not the Father of the Son.

[NickHassan]

ps. I have long wondered if the Jezebel of Rev 2 is a symbol of the Whore of Babylon?

In history she was from outside of the Israelites, had huge influence over her husband and terrorised Elijah. She acted entirely according to self interest and without mercy or morals.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2005,20:13)

Hi cubes, it is a popular misconception that the commands of Jesus are the OT commands. No Jesus makes some commands of his own You must be born again of water and the Spirit and Believe in me and Abide in me and Love one another as I have loved you. The OT commands  are part of the Covenant with the Jews . We are not Jews but gentiles.

Hi Nick,

Being Lord over creation, he carries much clout. He can certainly make a few commands of his own. But he also told us his commands were received from his father, and so, they are the father's commands from of old.

Also, perhaps there are shadows of what you listed in the OT–we could see the idea of abiding during the flood in Noah's ark, and on the night of Passover. The Epistle of John speaks about love and helps us to see that it originates from the Father–although it is through the Son that we see a full manifestation–in that God sent him to us, and he in turn laid down his life for the entire world. Believe–God commanded we believe his prophets even in the OT; being born again of the water and the Spirit….when Moses and Joshua led them through the waters by God's hand, wasn't that considered a form of baptism? The spirit part escapes me, but perhaps you or someone might remember something.

We can talk about the OT Laws in another thread. I think I saw one a few days ago.

Jesus I believe simplified things. He took an encyclopedia and brought it to the level of something children and adults could understand.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2005,03:25)

ps. I have long wondered if the Jezebel of Rev 2 is a symbol of the Whore of Babylon? In history she was from outside of the Israelites, had huge influence over her husband and terrorised Elijah. She acted entirely according to self interest and without mercy or morals.

You might be on to something, Nick. In Revelations, her name is certainly connected to the church…and if the Whore of Babylon represents those who have fallen away from the truth, then you are getting warmer. I have read some of t8's posts (I haven't read everything yet), and have seen it alluded to when he says come out from among her. Any scripture references that lead to that conclusion would be helpful.

[Cubes]

The Trinity is Illogical and unscriptural and the bible has no sympathy for it.

If one means by the trinity that there is a father, a son and the Holy Ghost, then that is ok.  Indeed there are.  In fact, we do not know for sure how many spirits God has.  We only know that the Holy Spirit is one sent to minister to us.

One runs into serious error however, when he begins to say things like they are the same person (3 in 1), and co-equals, and co-eternal (though on this count, we understand that even we who are saved shall get to be with our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ forever).  Thus, this must be said to reflect what the scriptures teach, that there is only one God, and this God has a son, and this God has sent his spirit into the world to continue the work that was began.  Scriptures teach that the Father alone is the Most High God from whom all things originate, including the Holy Spirit.

Many Trinitarians say that because attributes of character are shared b/n Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, this must be proof that they are one and the same person…forgetting that, even we are called to reflect those same characters by the indwelling of the holy spirit in us.  Two such character traits are Love and Light.  God is light, Jesus is the Light of the world, and we are said to be light of the world after their kind, or more correctly speaking, after the Father's kind.  Same goes for love.  God is love, Jesus' loved his father and loved us and laid down his life for us.  He calls us to love like he loved, for love is of God the Father.  Undoubtedly, these traits are given us through the holy spirit when we are born again, and the seed of God dwells in us as it says in 1 John 3:9:

1 Jn 3:9  No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (NIV).

Do not seeds produce after their own kind?  Why then should it surprise you that the Son of God and the Holy Spirit should have character traits of the Father from whom they proceed?

The Trinity 3 in 1 is illogical and has no scriptural basis:  If anything, it should be 1 in 2, 3 or in as many as are the Fathers, if someone could fathom such a thing.  

One of the few and last bastions of the so-called Trinity is 1 John 5:7-8.  And this time I will quote from the NKJV as it appears to give you some upperhand here:
——-
1 Jn 5:7-8:  For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and The Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
——-
Since trinitarians claim that there are 3 in 1, meaning a being with three components like a triangle or something like that, tell me, how can one bear witness of himself?  To what purpose?  Is God on trial that he should become his own defense and bear witness of himself to us?  If all three are one, then he/they need someone outside of him/themselves to bear witness of him/themselves, according to even Jesus.

Jesus said somewhere that although his own witness is true,  his father bears witness of him also. He also told us to expect the holy spirit who should give us a reminder of all that has transpired—and we know that the Spirit of God bears witness of him.  Since they are not the same person, their witness is legally acceptable according to what is written in the bible.  Trinitarians cannot claim the same privilege.  They need other witnesses besides their God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (liljon @ Feb. 18 2005,17:55)

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jesus is YHVH which is somehing the bible teaches and he church has always believed

Hi Lijon,

Tell me who am I to believe? You or scripture?

Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

Lijon
Jesus is YHVH which is somehing the bible teaches and he church has always believed

Lijon why do you want to be part of the Apostacy?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 19 2005,07:43)

Many Trinitarians say that because attributes of character are shared b/n Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, this must be proof that they are one and the same person…forgetting that, even we are called to reflect those same characters by the indwelling of the holy spirit in us. Two such character traits are Love and Light. God is light, Jesus is the Light of the world, and we are said to be light of the world after their kind, or more correctly speaking, after the Father's kind. Same goes for love. God is love, Jesus' loved his father and loved us and laid down his life for us. He calls us to love like he loved, for love is of God the Father. Undoubtedly, these traits are given us through the holy spirit when we are born again, and the seed of God dwells in us as it says in 1 John 3:9:

Good insight Cubes

[Cubes]

John 1:1, perhaps the most famous passage cited by trinitarians.

****
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
****

Never mind that the rest of John's gospel finds Jesus teaching us about his God, the Kingdom of His God and who he is with regards to all that. Trinitarians want us to believe that Jesus did not convey the right understanding of himself because after all, he walked humbly as a man while on earth… this is why he obeyed the father, etc. On the contrary, I find Jesus boldly claiming to be the son of God, Lord of creation, one who has power to forgive sins, to give life (as given him by his father), one who claimed to come from God and to be the only one who has seen God, etc. Jesus (while he humbled himself and refused to ask his father to send legions of angels to defend him when he could have etc), had by no means any falsehood in him or false humility. What he wanted us to know, he conveyed exactly. And no where did he claim to be God Almighty.

So now, back to John 1:1. Since John is the Apostle who was entrusted with this revelation and gospel, it finally dawned on me to have him explain what he meant by it. What did he himself believe of the son of God? What did he gather and conclude of all that had transpired? Of what he and the others heard, saw and looked upon with their own eyes, and handled with their own hands as to the Word of life (1 John 1:1), what did he conclude and how did it affect his perspective and understanding of God and Christ? What is the testimony that he wishes to give upon which we are to understand and make a decision?

Surely, if he meant to let us understand that Jesus and the father are one and the same God, then the rest of his writings should reflect that claim. If anything, he says emphatically that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God and is anti-Christ.

Who does he say Jesus is? The Son of God. He consistently makes a distinction b/n the father and the son and in no where in the 1 Epistle, at least, does he claim the two are the same. I have already spoken of 1 John 5:7-8 to indicate that it doesn't pan out scripturally. (see previous post). In fact, John says some pretty serious things against those who would teach anything other than that which has been taught in the Bible. Forget the extrabiblical schoolars, regardless of whose side they are on. Just take the gospels, read what they say about Jesus and who he is. Line it up with all the epistles and other books of the NT, and you needn't go too far although you can and should, but notice how all the first opening statements of every epistle pretty much reads like John's gospel with regards to what Christ said of himself.
That, is what the apostles themselves believed about God and his Christ. They never considered them to be the same person or equals.

No one was running around saying anything differently than what Jesus said of himself and of God, his Father. Or what the Father said of his son. Why then do we feel we must say something else? Do we follow the Nicean Council or do we follow Jesus?

Did a co-equal God come in the flesh or did the Son of God?
Did God send his own beloved son to us or himself, for if the son is one and the same, then it was God who died and not the son as the scriptures teach. And that quickly changes the claim of the Bible and makes one an anti-christ, accordingly.

————————————
1 Jn 4:14-16: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the son to be the saviour of the world.
Whoseover shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and everyone that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
————————————-

Can the Trinitarian say this with any confidence? Certainly not. The concept of the Trinity blurs the lines between begotter and the begotten. In fact, it obliterates it and say it does not exist in the FINAL ANALYSIS. Can't claim and deny in the same breath. Let your yea be yea and your no be no.

John ends this first epistle with:
1 John 5:20-21 And we know that the Son of God is come [not 3 in 1 but the Son of God only], and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, [who is he that is true? who did Jesus call the One True God in John 17?], and we are in him that is true, [and notice this], even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, and eternal life. Little children, keep your selves from idols. Amen. Funny he should end with that sentence about idols.

[[]]= my emphasis and inserts within brackets.

Really, the entire epistle of John and revelations should be read. As t8 and Nick were saying, come out from among them. This is more serious than even I have realized.

[Author]

Posts