The Trinity Doctrine

[liljon]

2. Jesus is not only El but Mighty El
Isaiah 10:21 And the remnant of Jacob shall trust in the mighty God
Jeremiah 32:17 O great Lord! You have made the heaven and the earth by Your great power, and with Your high and lofty arm; nothing can be hidden from You.

18 Granting mercy to thousands, and recompensing the sins of the fathers into the bosoms of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God;

3. Jesus is in Zechariah 14
3 And the Lord shall go forth, and fight with those Gentiles as when He fought in the day of war.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, a very great division; half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south.

5 And the valley of My mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Him.

1 Thess 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Acts1:11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you watched Him go into heaven.”

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey.

4. Mark 1 has nothing at all to do with deutoronmy

[WhatIsTrue]

liljon,

I am glad that you have chosen to weigh back in on this matter.  Could you finish addressing the points I have made by answering the question I have posed to you more than a few times now?

Quote

By the way … why do you think it is that phrases like “God the Son”, “God the Holy Spirit”, “three in one”, and “triune God” are completely missing from scripture?

Oh, and don't forget:

Quote

Find me two passages, (or even one), that talk about God being three persons but one god, and I will consider your case defended.

For the record, if you see the verses that I addressed in response to Modem Mouth differently than I do, then that is certainly your right.  We obviously disagree.  I did not quibble with your interpretation of the verses you quoted in your previous posts, and I am not going to do so now.  That's already been done here.  (Try reading this discussion from page 1 all the way to this one.)  The whole point of this exercise is to show that the Trinity doctrine does not come from scripture.  It comes from man superimposing his own philosophies on scripture.  I have given you what should be the simplest of challenges: show me the Trinitarian formula in the Word.  You have yet to complete it.

[NickHassan]

Hi K2marsh,
You leave me a little confused too. Are you saying ALL are gods or “those to whom the word of God came”? jn 10.35

Are all men addressed by the letters of Paul, such as Ephesians, or were they written to christians?

Is baptism unnecessary? If all men have sinned and that is a barrier between us and God how is sin forgiven and the barrier removed?

Is our own spirit reborn or are we reborn of the Holy Spirit?

Where is your evidence that spirit life is dreamlife in the Word?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 14 2005,20:02)

Dora, the q's were for Nick Nick, Jesus said in John 14:14, “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” He said we could make an appeal to Him. Who am I going to believe, Jesus or you? Also, the phrase, “call upon the name of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 1:2) is further confirmation that we can Pray to Jesus. In the Old Testament that phrase is used only of God and it includes the meaning of worship, adoration, and prayer.  Psalm 116:4 says,  “Then I called upon the name of the Lord: 'O Lord, I beseech Thee, save my life!'”   Paul obviously knew the significance of the phrase, which included prayerful appeal, and applied it to Jesus. In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship [koinonia] with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”   Paul says we are to have koinonia with Jesus. Who am I to believe, Paul or you? Of course we can pray to Jesus Nick, to say otherwise is to deny scripture

Hi Modem mouth,
I cannot deny Jn 14.14. It is a 'stand alone' scripture, however, that needs more understanding.

I think, though, that it is taking liberties to say that asking Jesus for anything covers prayer, adoration and worship.

Jesus told us to pray to and worship the Father. There is no suggestion in the Word that he wanted to be worshipped by those in him or to compete with the Father in this way.

Do you agree?

[liljon]

1.I don't know why they aren't
2.If I wanted to prove the Trinity I would need more than 2 verses

You know there is only one God and The Father is God so I won't have to prove that

Jesus
Zechariah 14:5 And the valley of My mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Him.
1 thess 3:13
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Holy Spirit
2 Cor3:16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Hs is a Person Acts 13
2 Now as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them
Three persons wouldn't be the best definition because we think of three persons as three different beings
To say Jesus is a creature or Angel is man's superimposing his own philosophy on scripture

ps. sorry to modern mouth for answering you before he got the chance to

[K2marsh]

Hi Nick Hassan and all,

WE ARE MADE IN GODS IMAGE, GOD IS SPIRIT
GOD SAID “LET US”.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[1:26 Syriac reads [all the wild animals of.] ] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
——–
God is over all, but we are Gods made in God's Spiritual image. We are to become sons of God in Spirit.
==================
MAN HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
===================
All men were created in Gods image in the garden of Eden.
===================
BAPTISM
————-
FIRST YOU MUST REPENT
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS
Acts 19:4
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Water baptism is a cleansings of the body. Under the acts of cleanness.
As above so on earth. A cleaning of the physical body as well as the Spiritual body. We are to believe on Christ Jesus to be saved.

WE ARE TO ASK TO BE GIVEN LIVING WATER
John 4:10
Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, “Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

JESUS BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Being baptized in water is so that on earth the Church will accept you that you commune and have fellowship with them. A cleansing of the body.

Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is being baptized to receive eternal life. The Old Man dies and you are reborn in Spirit. Then you can see yourself before you.

WHEN PAUL LAID HANDS NO THEM, THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON THEM
IT DOES MATTER WHO YOU ARE BAPTIZED BY
Acts 19
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues
and prophesied. 7Now the men were about twelve in all.

HOW ARE WE SAVED???
Water baptism does not save you. It’s just a beginning.

We are saved by washing of regeneration

Titus 3:5   Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and
renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6   Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our
Saviour;
    7   That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.
——
Thoughts come up and are gone over. Made right and put back down again.
========
OUR SPIRIT IS BORN
——————————
You Must Be Born Again

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into The KINGDOM of God.
—
NICODEMUS SAID
John 3:4   Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is
old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be
Born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit.

Jesus said:  That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. What was
born????
SPIRIT.

When the old man dies the body is dead. Now his Spirit has been born
again. Spirit never dies.

Man has Body, Soul, Spirit. When you are born you have a fleshly body.
When you are born of Spirit you have  a  Spirit body. The Scripture is
saying your first birth is fleshly. the second birth is Spiritual.
The second birth wouldn't you say is born again a second time?
—
Romans 6: 6   Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that
the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve
sin.
7   For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8   Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
—–
The seed must die before it is reborn.
—-
THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without
works is dead also.

Galatians 6:8   For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap
corruption;  but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
—–
This is the reborn Spirit.

WHEN BEING BORN AGAIN CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU
Galatians 4:19   My little children, of whom I travail in birth again
Until Christ be formed in you,

Yes the rebirth is painful.

Romans 7:4   Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the
law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to
him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto
God.
5   For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law,
did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6   But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we
were held; that we should servein newness of spirit, and not in the
oldness of the letter.
—
To be born again the old man must die. When you are born again it's
your spirit that is born. Then you can see your spirit before you. You
become psychic. You can feel what other people feel. That is one reason
why that you don't hurt your neighbor. When your neighbor is in pain you can
feel their pain, and it can be very painful.
—
Romans 8:8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9……Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

=========================================
YOUR DREAM WORLD
Genesis 40:8
And they said to him, “We each have had a dream, and there is no interpreter of it.” So Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, please.”

Being in Spirit may not be what you call a dream, but I don’t know how you can separate the two.
When the mind is active you can not  see things that are of the Spirit. When you mind is passive then you can see visions, and dreams.

Karyl
====

[NickHassan]

Hi k2M,
Yes we are mde in God's image. But that does not make us gods.
The pain of childbirth mentioned in Galations is the pain of Paul's midwifery. It is Jesus being formed in us after we have been born into him.
We are born again of Water and the Spirit. Scripture makes it plain that washing in water is important for our relationship with God, not men. We share the death of Jesus in water baptism and are raised to new life in the Spirit.Yes we need the living water of the Spirit as well and that is the baptism of the Spirit. Baptism is not a work of the baptised but the baptiser.
Our spiritual body is only put on us at our resurrection.
The Holy Spirit does not make us psychic. Demonic spirits such as the divination or fortune telling spirits do that . So we must test the spirits. The Holy Spirit is like the Wind-it blows where it will.
You have some good teachings too.

[WhatIsTrue]

liljon,

Thank you for answering my question.

You wrote:

Quote

2.If I wanted to prove the Trinity I would need more than 2 verses

Your missing my point.  Let me quote it for you again:

Quote

So unless you have a scripture that explicitly defines your god as three, we could all be God.  (In fact, that is what Mormons believe.)

In other words, show me from scripture that God can only consist of three persons.  Again, if the Trinity is such a foundational doctrine, it should be easy to find – at least in the New Testament.

You wrote:

Quote

Three persons wouldn't be the best definition because we think of three persons as three different beings

Then, you need to give your definition of the Trinity so that we know what your talking about.  For the record, the Athanasian Creed, which officially defines the doctrine of the Trinity reads in part:

Quote

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

You wrote:

Quote

To say Jesus is a creature or Angel is man's superimposing his own philosophy on scripture

No, actually, it is scripture:

Romans 5:15: But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus… .

The fact that Yeshua was a man is one of the most essential truths of the new testament, and it is talked about throughout scripture in plain language.

[liljon]

I already gave you passages that said the Father was God (1) Jesus was (2) and The HS was (3)
1 John 5:7 Says those three are one

I was just saying TODAY it isn't the best definition because when I and others think of persons of three different beings

Jesus only became a man but he is not created because he created all things

[WhatIsTrue]

liljon,

As I am sure you already know 1 John 5:7 is a proven fraud.  Here is a footnote from the NKJV:

Quote

1 John 5:8 NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

Thank you for discussing these matters with me.  We obviously disagree, and I will leave it at that.  Personally, I think that you and Modem Mouth have helped to show that the Trinity doctrine is not an explicit teaching of the bible, and I believe that anyone who truly understands the significance of that will have his spiritual eyes opened up to a world of falsehoods within the traditional church – perhaps enough to force one to trust in God more than manmade organizations.

With that said, if you are truly convinced of the Trinity doctrine in your mind, and not just holding onto it out of habit or tradition, then may God bless your faith and truly make it complete.

(By the way, if you have any interest in the evidence against the idea that Yeshua created all things, see the link below as well as the link on Hebrews that I posted previously.

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/col11520.html )

[NickHassan]

Hi WITand others,
This site attracts a lot of people who have found reasons to question and reject the Trinity premise as scripturally untenable. Many have thus also questioned the trinitarian bias that has infiltrated the translation of the New Testament because of the fact that the trinity heresy[>300ad] was extant in the traditional church and long preceded the production of bibles.
The trinity concept of equality between Yeshua and the Father also is rightly rejected.
These are good things and it is necessary to ponder them in the pursuit of truth .
But should one continue forever down this path? Has the Holy Spirit's influence over translation of the bible been overridden by bias? Is truth now only to be found in the Old Testament?Should every verse be given other alternative meanings? Can only Mr Buzzard be relied on to find truth for us? That is the option he offers and many clamour to follow this new messiah.

Has the baby and the bath itself been contaminated by the bathwater and all need to be discarded?

Having rightly rejected trinity
Mr Buzzard and the 'Torahofmessiah' site also denies

The deity of the Son
The preexistance of the Son of God

Yeshua is presented as man only denying his status as Son of God. So in my opinion Mr Buzzard is a false teacher. I prefer to trust in God's inspiration of and protection of truth than any man's interpretation.

“Let God be found true though every man be found a liar” Rom 3.4

[roberts]

The question was asked: How can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? God is not limited to one place and time. That is like asking how the Holy Spirit can be with you and me at the same time. The word omnipresence is used to say that God can be everwhere at the same time. The word trinity is used to describe the ways God relates to man. A man can be a business man and a daddy at the same time, but cannot be with his son and at the office at the same time because he is limited as a human. God is not limited. Our mind and soul may be encased in our body. Let us not box God in! Our minds could never fully comprehend all that God can do to reach out and walk in our shoes. All things are possible with God.

[NickHassan]

Welcome roberts,
Where is omnipresence in the bible?
Jesus prayed to his God and told us to pray to 'Our Father in heaven'.
Was this not a true scripture? Is the Father not in heaven?

Should we follow what theologians think about God or what the bible reveals about God?

[liljon]

2 Cor 6:16 And what union is there for the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, just as God has said: “I will dwell in them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

17 Therefore “Come out from the midst of them and be separated,” says the Lord. “Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.”

18 “I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty.”
God dwells in us but he is in heaven.
Jesus was prayed to in Acts and in the early Church
1 cor 1:2
2 cor 12:8 Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The bible reveals who he is God in the flesh
WIT I am not convinced that is a proven fraud. Not because I need a Trinity verse but it is quoted by the Early Latin Fathers. (2nd-4th century)

[roberts]

Dear Ambassador of Christ,
In regards to your post on May 18, 2002. Good Work! May I quote you?
Dear Admins posted June 3, 2002,
Why do you say we are gods? There is only one God, the creator.

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick,

Thank you for your compliments earlier.

The articles that I linked deal with translation issues, not with the validity of the New Testament.  One can maintain the authenticity of the Word and still believe Yeshua was God's annointed man, who became a life giving spirit at his ressurection.  Unless you believe that the scriptures have been perfectly translated into English, I don't think that the author's approach in those articles were terribly controversial.

I do, however, appreciate your diligence in defending the integrity of the Word.

For the record, I disagree with many of Anthony Buzzard's beliefs, and I am not in lockstep with the Torah of Messiah author either.

By the way, until you have an adequate answer for the Deuternomy 13 passage, I would be careful about calling other people false teachers.

liljon,

Could you produce some evidence of those 2nd-4th century quotes of 1 John 5:7-8?  I have never heard of such a thing before.  Even so, most modern translations, leave those words out, so even Trinitarians acknowledge that these words were added into the Bible in later centuries.  Anyway, I was just curious as to how most Trinitarian bible scholars could have possibly missed the proof that these verses are authentic.

[NickHassan]

Thank you WIT,
I respect your honesty and diligence.
Sorry I had forgotten about the Deut 13 challenge.

OK Deut 13 warns against strange teachings and the worship of other new gods “whom you have not known”

You relate it to the Son of God I presume as well as the deluded worship of trinity.

The Son of God is not worshipped by his true followers. Those that do so are opposing his instructions to worship the Father alone. They are deceived. Yeshua claimed to be the Son of God and not his God, the God of the OT, and never sought to be worshipped. His followers relate to him and plead with him but he is not their God. There is no record of any followers worshipping him in Acts.

The deity status of the Son of God is not new. It is established in the OT as quoted by the Spirit in Hebrews 1 for example. His deity is as an image of the Father above all created beings including the other sons of God[Gen 1,Jb1.2.38] His deity does not compare with that of his God. He is mighty.But he did not seek equality with the Father.

[NickHassan]

Hi roberts,
Your argument is with Yeshua who quoted the words of the Spirit in Jn 10.35. It is worth looking deeper at these verses.

Hi liljon,
I agree Paul pleaded with Christ. Yeshua is our mediator with the Father so we need to be able to call on him. All individual christians can sup with him.[Rev 3.20]True worshippers do not worship him or any other god but worship the Father.[Jn 4.23]

Yes Yeshua revealed the Father as he was filled with the Spirit of the Father and worked in the name of the Father.But ,as you say, the Father is in heaven.

[K2marsh]

Hi Nick Hassan and all,

YOU ARE GODS, this is what Jesus said.  That makes us Gods.
Not Jesus only, but YOU are Gods.
John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'?[2] 35If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

WE ARE MADE IN GODS IMAGE, GOD IS SPIRIT
GOD SAID “LET US”.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[1:26 Syriac reads [all the wild animals of.] ] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
——–
God is over all, but we are Gods made in God's Spiritual image. We are to become sons of God in Spirit.
=======================

The old man must die. When we are dead and our spirit is reborn we are not in the body, but spirit. We are the temple of God so our spirit dwells within us when we are not out of our body in spirit. Then in the final resurrection we will live Christ.

Romans 6:5-9 (New King James Version)
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
——

Joel 2:28
[ God's Spirit Poured Out ] “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.
—
How do you come by the notion that these are demonic spirits???

I think you are missing something. Christianity is Spiritual.

Living for the Devil  is done in Spirit.

We are to choose this day who we will serve. Choosing the Lord you worship God. God is Spirit. The only way you can worship God is in Spirit and truth.
—-
2 Corinthians 12:1-3
1 It is doubtless[a] not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man–whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows–
============

Karyl
====

[NickHassan]

Hi k2m,
a few queries.In your opinion:
Are all saved?
Are all temples of the Holy Spirit or only those who are baptised into Christ?
Does the word of Jn 10.35 say that all are gods or “those to whom this scripture is addressed”?
Has the prophecy in Joel been fulfilled yet or does it await the changes in the Sun and moon and stars?
Does the word say we are made in God's image or God's spiritual image?
The body dies in baptism but does our spirit?
Have you never seen demonic spirits in action?

[Author]

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