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LET ME ADD THAT IF SATAN WAS LUCIFER, A HOLY ANGEL OF GOD BEFORE HE WAS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN, THAT WOULD CONTRIDICT JESUS' WORDS THAT HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING..A HOLY ANGEL OF GOD IS NOT A MURDERER & BEING AN ANGEL 1ST & THEN BEING CHANGED IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH BEING A MURDERER IN ORIGIN OR IN THE BEGINNING
Modem Mouth and liljon,
I am going to assume for the moment that both of you are Trinitarians, as that seems to be the nature of the doctrine you are espousing. If I am incorrect, please say so.
That being the case, you two are in with the overwhelming majority of “Christians” since the birth of the Messiah. You have church history – (the Roman Catholic Church, that is) – famous theologians of the past and present, and an inexhaustible source of doctrinal defenses from modern day soruces such as universities, colleges, libraries, book stores, and the internet. We who are not convinced that the Trinity is a scriptural doctrine have only the scriptures to search, the Spirit of God to lead us, and a few internet sites here and there to encourage us in our digging. (By the way, if we are wrong, the scriptures will preach against us, the Spirit is not in us, and our few friends on the internet are a curse to us.) In short, you have an extraordinary advantage over us in terms of resources for your arguments. In my opinion, that puts you in the position where proving yourself should be rather simple. So here's my challenge:
Show us the scriptures that speak plainly to each point of the doctrine of the Trinity. In other words, from the outline below, (or an outline of your own choosing, if you prefer), show us at least two scriptures that directly assert that point of the doctrine – no verses that only seem to imply the principle (i.e. no proof by implication). Given the resources at your disposal, (including your local pastor), you should be able to do this with no problem, thereby putting the matter to rest forever.
1. The Father is fully God on His own.
2. The Son is fully God on his own.
3. The Holy Spirit is fully God on [his] own.
4. Father, Son, and Spirit are coequal.
5. Father, Son, and Spirit are coeternal.
6. All three together are one God, not three gods.Again, I am looking for explicit statements of scripture. For example, Deuteronomy 6:4, which says, “YHVH is one”, does not apply to point number six because one has to assume that YHVH is three persons, which is not explicitly stated in the verse. (Of course, if you had another verse that said YHVH is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you could put the two together.) The phrase, “the three are one”, is about the only phrase I can think of that would satisfy number six explicitly, but I leave it to you, and the vast number of scholars and theologians from today and ages past to find a better fit.
Just in case your wondering, I don't think you will be able to meet my challenge because I don't think that the Trinity doctrine is taught in the bible. I think that it is a manmade doctrine that developed after the scriptures were written. That is why you can not find the phrase “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” anywhere in scripture, but you can find it in every manmade creed since the Council of Nicea in 325AD.
Think about it. If the apostle Paul wasn't enlightened enough to talk about “God the Son”, why do you? If all the apostle's of the Messiah and of God, weren't theologically brilliant enough to talk about the “triune God”, or the “three in one”, why do you? God did not leave us an incomplete Bible. Those who declare the doctrine of the Trinity act as though He did by giving greater importance to the wisdom of men than the plain words of the holy scriptures.
(matt 16:23) Jesus “turned, & said unto peter, get you behind me, satan: you are an offense to me: for you savor not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”
Jesus is saying that the flesh nature, which is against the will of God due to ignorance of God & His ways is satan…peter was one of the chosen few who followed Jesus & beleived he was Messiah…Jesus told peter that upon the revelation that he was Messiah that he would build his church & the gates of hell would not prevail against it, yet to the same man Jesus now says “you are satan”
we are told that the flesh wars with the spirit & the two are contrary one to the other…that is the definition of an adversary
in other scripture the phrase, “satan entered into him” is used…is that a spirit outside man or is it meaning that man enters into the desires that are against God & yields himself to them? in the case of judas, Jesus said he was a devil & not that the devil was “in” him
one place says that satan entered into him but satan in that case was a conspiracy against Jesus for 30 pieces of silver…Jesus said “woe” was to Judas for his betrayal, so in the case of Judas it was conspiracy & betrayal that was used to work as adversary of Jesus…judas probably thought since Jesus was Messiah that even though he sold him out that they wouldnt be able to take Jesus “by force”
that was a shock to all the disciples as they saw Jesus walk through multitudes that would have killed Jesus & Jesus was always able to avoid being hurt or attacked…i'm sure they thought a man who walks on water & speaks to trees to produce no more fruit & the tree dies, feed multitudes, & all the miraculous ability that Jesus had over nature would not suffer at the hands of evil men seeking to kill him…they saw him raise the dead so surely they thought nothing ever could hurt him…
they saw him transfigured & wanted to make him a temple of his own so they could worship him (they wanted to worship moses & elias too, and it was an abomination for any jew to worship any man as deity)…they were so glorified that they didnt think any man could approach such glory without being deity…but while they yet spoke, God spoke from heaven & told them that Jesus was His beloved son & they must hear what he says
no wonder they thought they would conqueor the world & rule with Jesus…they savored the things that be of men that were ignorant of God & His ways & acted as adversary of God in many ways & often
many times Jesus said “O ye of little faith” & “where is your faith?” meaning they forgot that YVAH is deity alone…Jesus had to continually remind them that the works that he did were done by the father as he obeyed…they just didnt get it because they savored the things that be of men & thier understanding was darkened
To DORA,
Quote (DORA @ Jan. 15 2005,14:48) THIS DOESNT MEAN THE SON WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING…IT MEANS HE WAS THE PURPOSE FOR CREATION…THAT PURPOSE WAS SPOKEN BY GOD ON DAY ONE OF CREATION, “LET THERE BE LIGHT”…THE LIGHT IS THE SON, BUT THAT ISNT WHEN THE SON WAS BEGOTTEN This discussion really belongs to the discussions 'Who is Jesus?' But I will quote you the following verses, seen as how you have raised this here. But I think it would be good if this discussion is continued in one of those discussions and leave this one for the Trinity.
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 3:13
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.DORA if you wish to comment on these verses, please do so in the 'Who is Jesus?' discussion which will be near the top of the discussion list after I have made this post there too. That would make the Forum easier to follow.
thx
Yes it would be good to discuss things that are relevant to the subject. If there is no discussion based on your point you can start a new one. We need to keep the discussions easy to follow and on the subject for the sake of the readers.
It is OK to prove a point in order to build an argument based on the subject at hand. But try not to fly off on a tangent.
cheers
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 14 2005,22:47) 1. The Father is fully God on His own.
2. The Son is fully God on his own.
3. The Holy Spirit is fully God on [his] own.
4. Father, Son, and Spirit are coequal.
5. Father, Son, and Spirit are coeternal.
6. All three together are one God, not three gods.
1Cor8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him;…Col2:8 Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Acts 5:3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and for you to keep back for yourself from the price of the land?
4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And after it was sold, was it not in your control? Why have you purposed this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.”
Philipans2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; I am the First and I am the Last; beside Me there is no God.7 Who is like Me? Let him stand, and call, and declare, and prepare for Me from the time that I made man forever; and let them tell you the things that are coming before they arrive.
Hebrews9:14 by how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, will cleanse your conscience from dead works in order that we might serve the living God?Isiah40:28 And now, have you not known? Have you not heard? The eternal God, the God that formed the ends of the earth, shall not hunger, nor be weary, and there is no searching of His understanding.
Micah5:2 And you, Bethlehem, house of Ephratha, are few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah; yet out of you shall one come forth to Me, to be a ruler of Israel; and His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity.James 2:19 You believe God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe—and they shudder
Liljon,
It would help if you showed which verses you have quoted go with the various points of the outline. As far as I can tell the following is what you have so far. (I will not bother quibbling with your interpretation of any of the verses quoted below, because they will still prove insufficient, even with a biased interpretation.)
1. The Father is fully God on His own.
1Cor8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him;…
2. The Son is fully God on his own.
Col2:8 Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
3. The Holy Spirit is fully God on [his] own.
Acts 5:3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and for you to keep back for yourself from the price of the land?
4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And after it was sold, was it not in your control? Why have you purposed this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.”
4. Father, Son, and Spirit are coequal.
Philipans2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
5. Father, Son, and Spirit are coeternal.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; I am the First and I am the Last; beside Me there is no God.
7 Who is like Me? Let him stand, and call, and declare, and prepare for Me from the time that I made man forever; and let them tell you the things that are coming before they arrive.
Hebrews9:14 by how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, will cleanse your conscience from dead works in order that we might serve the living God?Isiah40:28 And now, have you not known? Have you not heard? The eternal God, the God that formed the ends of the earth, shall not hunger, nor be weary, and there is no searching of His understanding.
Micah5:2 And you, Bethlehem, house of Ephratha, are few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah; yet out of you shall one come forth to Me, to be a ruler of Israel; and His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity.6. All three together are one God, not three gods.
James 2:19 You believe God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe—and they shudder
My response:
On point #1, you have no quibble from me. Both the verse you quote and the principle are solid.On point #2, again, I will not argue your interpretation of the verse. Given your interpretation, I will consider the second point established.
On point #3, I consider this ambiguous at best. There is nothing explicit about these verses. In fact, one must wonder why Ananias had to be told that he was “not lying to men, but to God” if it was clear that he had been talking to the person, God the Holy Spirit.
On point #4, I consider this marginal and incomplete at best. Again, this is not exactly an explicit statement that Christ is equal to God, especially if you look at this verse in other translations. Moreover, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the equality equation at all.
On point #5, even though I strongly disagree with your interpretation of Micah 5:2, especially in light of other translations of this verse, I will consider it established.
On point #6, the verse that you have quoted is woefully insufficient. It says that God is one, as in Deut 6:4, not that God is three in one. Unless you have another verse that states that God consists of Father, Son, and Spirit. This verse is useless on its own to establish this point.
So far, you have established half of the outline above with unambiguous scripture. Three down, only three more to go!
(By the way, I forgot to include the point about the Son being both fully God AND fully man, but we can leave that out for now.)
Just out of curiousity, why do you think the phrases “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” are completely absent from scripture?
Pt 3 says he lied to the Hs who is God
Pt 6 is based on previous statements of jesus and hs being god tooliljon,
Do you understand the difference between explicit and implicit? I have asked you to show me explicit teachings from scripture. What you have shown me in three of the six points is implicit teaching. In other words, one has to bring certain assumptions into the verses that you have quoted in order to get the same understandings out of them that you are trying to teach.
Let me give you an example of what you are doing. If I preach that we are all Christ, I could quote the following as proof:
Matthew 25:40:
And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.”The verse does not actually say that we are all Christ, but it certainly does imply it if we bring that faulty assumption into the passage.
Again, I am asking you for explicit teachings from scripture. Can you comply with that request, or will you admit that there are no explicit passages in scripture that support the entire doctrine of the Trinity?
Also, for the third time, I will ask you why you think it is that phrases like “God the Son”, “God the Holy Spirit”, “three in one”, and “triune God” are completely missing from scripture? Don't you think such fundamental concepts should be rampant throughout scripture, or at least in the New Testament, given its importance? How do explain such glaring absences? (Why do you refuse to even address them?)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 14 2005,22:47) 1. The Father is fully God on His own.
2. The Son is fully God on his own.
3. The Holy Spirit is fully God on [his] own.
4. Father, Son, and Spirit are coequal.
5. Father, Son, and Spirit are coeternal.
6. All three together are one God, not three gods.
WIT,
I don't think you could find explicit scriptural statements to support all of the above. However, I also don't believe all biblical thruths are presented explicitly in the word of God. For example, you would find it very difficult to show that Satan is a malevolant fallen angel, with super natural powers and and the worst intentions for mankind. But the evidence will lead you to the fact that he is. Another example is Jesus in the Old Testament. You would have a hard time proving that a number of prophecies (in particular) speak of Jesus to an orthodox Jew. They arent explicit passages, His name isn't mentioned in the text, but nonetheless He is there. All Biblical thruths are not explicit WIT.Quote It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. (Prov 25:2) The trinity is the same for me. Thats where the evidence pointed, and believe me i've looked into this in depth. Ive heard most of the arguments for and against the trinity, and I found the arguments for were far more compelling. On the surface t8's (and others here) theology looked appealing and credible but left many unanswered questions. If I adopted it myself I know I would never be able to defend it with integrity because the objections that trinitarians raise are, I believe, valid and it would be disingenuous (at best) of me to try.
You all will never come to an agreement, because Jesus is God and
the Son of God.GOD WHO CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST
Ephesians 3:9
and to make all see what is the fellowship[3:9 NU-Text and M-Text read [stewardship ] (dispensation).] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;[ NU-Text omits [through Jesus Christ.
—
God is Spirit and God uses his creation to do his will that his plan is fulfilled. God works through people and things that he created.THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD
1 Co 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of
every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the
man; and the head of Christ is god.”Note the little g in God the Father. The original text does not
have lower case letters.
—
THE WORD TRINITY IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.
THE WORD TRINITY MEAN EQUAL
Mark 10:18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me
good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
—
This Scripture is saying that they are not all equal.
Therefore trinity as a joint affair is not correct.
—
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
the (Holy) Trinity nounLITERARY
in Christianity, the existence of one God in three forms, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
===========================Lets take a better look at God. God is Spirit. God created the world through Jesus. God descended as a dove when Jesus was baptized. God appeared to Moses in the burning bush.
God is a very powerful.
God is in all things. God is man’s life force. You are the temple of God. Cleve a branch I am there.
Man was made in Gods image. That was in the garden of Eden when man was created.
===========
JESUS IS GOD
===========
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and
my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[1] because you have
seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have
not seen and yet have believed.”Take note this was after the death of Jesus. Jesus was in Spirit.
Jesus did not tell Thomas that he was not God. God made man in his image. God is Spirit and when we return to God we will be in Spirit and become a part of God. The Scriptures say that ye are Gods.=========
ONE GOD
=========
THERE IS ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN,
THE MAN CHRIST JESUS
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and
to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified
in due time.
———–
Jesus has shown the way that we are to follow.THERE IS ONE GOD OVER ALL, (AND IN YOU)
Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in youJohn 1:1-5. “In the beginning was
the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was
in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him
was not anything made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was
the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness
comprehended it not.”===========================
YOU ARE GODS, this is what Jesus said.
Not Jesus only, but YOU are Gods. That is with a capitol G. The original texts do not have lower case letters.John 10:
Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 3 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'?[2] 35If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, “You are blaspheming,' because I said, “I am the Son of God'?=====
WE ARE MADE IN GODS IMAGE, GOD IS SPIRIT
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[1:26 Syriac reads [all the wild animals of.] ] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
——–
God is over all, but we are Gods made in God's Spiritual image. We are to become sons of God in Spirit.
——–
LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD THESE ARE SONS OF GOD
Romans 8:
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”SONS OF THE LIVING GOD
Romans 9:
26″And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God.”BECAUSE YOU ARE SONS, GOD
Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE TO BECOME SONS OF GOD
==================
Colossians 1
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.THE HIM IS GOD
=========================Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.—–
To become a son of God you must be walking in your Spirit, or Ghost. Not the fleshly body.[/B]Explicit statements
Jesus is God
Hebrew 1:10-12
says “Thou Lord” (referring to jesus) but the Ot quote Says YHVHHebrews 10:15-16
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,16 “This is the covenant which I shall covenant with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws on their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds,
ModemMouth,
Thank you for weighing in on my challenge. I am glad to see you honestly responding to my premise.
Quote WIT,
I don't think you could find explicit scriptural statements to support all of the above. However, I also don't believe all biblical thruths are presented explicitly in the word of God. For example, you would find it very difficult to show that Satan is a malevolant fallen angel, with super natural powers and and the worst intentions for mankind. But the evidence will lead you to the fact that he is. Another example is Jesus in the Old Testament. You would have a hard time proving that a number of prophecies (in particular) speak of Jesus to an orthodox Jew. They arent explicit passages, His name isn't mentioned in the text, but nonetheless He is there. All Biblical thruths are not explicit WIT.I can not possibly disagree more. I think that the purpose of scripture is for establishing doctrine, reproof, and instructions in righteousness. Furthermore, I don't believe that God left important matters of faith up to hints and scattered evidence. I think that all of the important matters of faith are spelled out explicitly in God's word.
For example, assuming that you are correct about what the scriptures teach concerning Satan – (I haven't ever tried to look it up, so I wouldn't know) – exactly how important is it to your faith to know such things explicitly? Does it matter to your faith whether or not you know the exact history and nature of Satan, or is it a purely peripheral matter next to knowing who God is and what He expects of us?
Secondly, the OT prophecies about the Messiah, giving hints and clues as to who he will be. But the NT explicitly identifies him. It does not merely hint at it, or leave us scattered evidence. It states it plainly. An orthodox jew must decide whether or not the NT is true or false, but he could not possibly pick up the NT and say that it does not identify the Messiah. It is an important matter, and therefore, spelled out explicitly.
Again, consider this: If the concept of God being a Trinity was so foundational to the faith, and it was revealed to the apostle's during their extraordinary mission, why don't we see phrases like “God the Son” or “three in one” in their writings? Why do they seem to be generally oblivious to a Trinity concept, especially in light of the fact that this would have been a major theological shift in understanding from what they had been taught about God their whole lives?
liljon,
You have just referenced two of the most aggregious examples of translation bias in the NT, but I won't get into that now. You can check out the article below if you have any interest in the evidence against your understanding of those passages.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/echad4.htm
In any case, let's just jump to point #6. I will rest my case there. Find me two passages, (or even one), that talk about God being three persons but one god, and I will consider your case defended. Otherwise, you have not defined a Trinity; you have merely opened the door for God consisting of many different people. Remember this passage in John:
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'? (John 10:34)
So unless you have a scripture that defines your god as three, we could all be God. (In fact, that is what Mormons believe.)
By the way, I ask you for the fourth time, why do you think it is that phrases like “God the Son”, “God the Holy Spirit”, “three in one”, and “triune God” are completely missing from scripture?
You know WhatIsTrue all you ever seem to do is throw up challenges and then follow with a barrage of objections. Why don't you try and answer some questions for a change? Here is a list of questions I want you to answer WhatIsTrue:
1. If Jesus is not God, then why is He called God by the Father (Heb 1:8), Paul (Ti 2:13), John (Jn 1:1), Thomas (Jn 20:28)?
2. If Jesus is not God, why is He named great God in Ti 2:13, Mighty God in Is 9:6?, and Almighty God in Rev 1:8.
3. Why is Jesus named YHWH in some Old Testament escatological prophecies, e.g. Zech 14?
4. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Isaiah 40:3, applied to Jesus by New Testament writers (Mark 1:3)?
5. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Jer. 31:33, applied to the Holy Spirit by New Testament writers (Heb 10:15-17)? (also, Ps 95:11 and Heb 3:7-11)
6. Why is a plural (not a singular or even a dual) noun used when refering to God in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7, Isaiah 6:8?
7. Why are the Father and the Holy Spirit mentioned in the same triadic verses? e.g. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Pet 1:2. (wouldn't this be redundant if the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father?)
8. How is it that the Old Testament teaches that God will judge the world, e.g. 1 Chr 16:33, but the New Testament teaches that Jesus alone will be the judge (Matt 25:31, Jn 12:48, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10)?
Thank you
Hi
God works through people and his creation.THERE IS ONE GOD OVER ALL, (AND IN YOU)
Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you
==================
YOU ARE GODS, this is what Jesus said.
Not Jesus only, but YOU are Gods.
John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'?[2] 35If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
==================
JESUS IS GOD
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and
my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[1] because you have
seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have
not seen and yet have believed.”Take note this was after the death of Jesus. Jesus was in Spirit.
Jesus did not tell Thomas that he was not God. God made man in his image. God is Spirit and when we return to God we will be in Spirit and become a part of God. The Scriptures say that ye are Gods.
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Jesus said I and the Father are one.
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WE ARE MADE IN GODS IMAGE, GOD IS SPIRIT
GOD SAID “LET US”.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[1:26 Syriac reads [all the wild animals of.] ] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
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God is over all, but we are Gods made in God's Spiritual image. We are to become sons of God in Spirit.
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MAN HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:==================
LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD THESE ARE SONS OF GOD
Romans 8:
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
=================Karyl
====Modem Mouth,
Quote 1. If Jesus is not God, then why is He called God by the Father (Heb 1:8), Paul (Ti 2:13), John (Jn 1:1), Thomas (Jn 20:28)? For the Hebrew passage, see the link in my last post.
In the KJV, Titus 2:13 reads thusly:
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
There is obviously a difference of opinion on how this verse should be translated, but it appears that a translation, (the KJV), that maintains God and Yeshua as separate has been considered legitimate for quite some time. Moreover, if you look at the first verse in the book of Titus, it is clear that Paul considered God and Yeshua to be two separate entities:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
There are two issues with John 1:1, both having to do with how it is translated. Firstly, the construct of the Greek allows a more likely translation of the last sentence as, “and the Word was divine.” Take note:
“In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine wisdom and word was there with God and it was what God was. (The Complete Gospels, Ed Miller, Annotated Scholars Version, revised, Harper, 1994)”
Secondly, the Word was not always thought of as a “him” as we see in our translations now. The Word was referred to as an “it”. (see bottom of http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/WTT.htm) The term Logos literally refers to God’s divine plan. (See a Strong’s concordance for reference.)
As far as John 20:28 goes, if Thomas’ confession was intended to identify Yeshua as God, then the writer of the gospel missed this point only a few verses later:
John 20:31:” but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”
The whole episode in the latter part of John 20 is about Thomas’ refusal to believe that Yeshua had risen. It was not about believing that Yeshua is God. Read it in context.
Quote 2. If Jesus is not God, why is He named great God in Ti 2:13, Mighty God in Is 9:6?, and Almighty God in Rev 1:8. See point #1 for Titus 2:13.
As for Isaiah 9:6, the Hebrew term used for “god” in this verse is “el”, which can be used for either God or man. In this case, it denotes the mightiest of men, the Messiah. (See a Strong’s concordance for reference.)
Revelations is a reference to the Almighty, and not to Yeshua. Look at the verse in context:
Revelations 1:“ 4John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. … 8’I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,’ says the Lord, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’”
The “who was and is to come” is identified as someone separate from Yeshua in the preceding verses, so verse 8 is not Yeshua speaking.
Quote 3. Why is Jesus named YHWH in some Old Testament escatological prophecies, e.g. Zech 14? For the record, Yeshua is not identified in this passage, nor is it referenced from the NT as far as I can tell, but for further clarification see point #8.
Quote 4. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Isaiah 40:3, applied to Jesus by New Testament writers (Mark 1:3)? Read the Isaiah verse in context:
Isaiah 40: 3The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make straight in the desert[a]
A highway for our God.
4Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
5The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”Compare with the following:
Deuteronomy 18:18I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Mark is clearly telling us that Yeshua is the one being talked about in the Deuteronomy passage.
Quote 5. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Jer. 31:33, applied to the Holy Spirit by New Testament writers (Heb 10:15-17)? (also, Ps 95:11 and Heb 3:7-11) Hebrews 10:15-17 is self-explanatory. It says that God will put His laws in our hearts. How will he do that? By the Holy Spirit. (See point #7 for further explanation.)
The other verses will also be better explained by point #7.
Quote 6. Why is a plural (not a singular or even a dual) noun used when refering to God in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7, Isaiah 6:8? God is speaking to His heavenly court. The imagery in Isaiah 6 confirms that. (By the way, He could also be using the “royal we”.) Take note that God is never referred to in plural pronouns by any biblical writer. These are rare occurrences that only happen when God is speaking to His heavenly court.
Quote 7. Why are the Father and the Holy Spirit mentioned in the same triadic verses? e.g. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Pet 1:2. (wouldn't this be redundant if the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father?) This is a whole topic in itself, but to be brief, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God’s power and knowledge. You will see throughout scripture God’s servants being anointed with His Spirit in order to perform great works – everyone from the Prophets to David to Yeshua. So the Spirit is something God can give, it is not God Himself.
Quote 8. How is it that the Old Testament teaches that God will judge the world, e.g. 1 Chr 16:33, but the New Testament teaches that Jesus alone will be the judge (Matt 25:31, Jn 12:48, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10)? Study this passage and und
erstand what it is truly saying:1 Corinthians 15: 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Note that Yeshua rules because God has given him the authority to do so, but in the end, the kingdom is God’s and Yeshua will be subject to Him along with everyone else. Yeshua is God’s proxy in judging the earth.
Now that I have answered your questions, can you answer mine? For the record, they are as follows:
Quote If the concept of God being a Trinity was so foundational to the faith, and it was revealed to the apostle's during their extraordinary mission, why don't we see phrases like “God the Son” or “three in one” in their writings? Why do they seem to be generally oblivious to a Trinity concept, especially in light of the fact that this would have been a major theological shift in understanding from what they had been taught about God their whole lives? Thank you.
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