The Trinity Doctrine

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2007,03:05)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. T8, have you ever seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended? It's a yes or no question….

Hi IS,

How does this compare with what Paul said

1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

Col 2:5  For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

1Th 2:17  But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while–in person, not in spirit–were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2007,20:05)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. T8, have you ever seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended? It's a yes or no question….

Is 1:18

You are correct.

Kejonn looked over that scripture in my response to him.

What they are trying to say is the term invisibility is exclusive to the Father. Therfore 1 Tim 1:17 cannot apply to Yeshua.

However the word “Invisible” is not exclusive of the Father as we see here…

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Kejonn quoted Heb 11:27  but left out the previous verse…

Heb 11:
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ (Messiah) greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Context!

Moses by faith saw the Messiah who is invisible.

Now Yeshua had appeared for a time…

Heb 9:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear *the second time* without sin unto salvation.

Surely Christ is invisble yet present, for he will appear again.

Jesus said to Thomas…

Jn 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that *have not seen*, and yet have believed.

1 Timothy 1:14-17 is clearly speaking of Yeshua in its context.

But of course for those who dont believe have to say differently because the verse clearly says Jesus is God the the Word that was with God and the Word that was God that appeared in the flesh.

Thomas who doubted, doubted no more…

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

You asked me if Jesus was born again. He was not born again but he was incarnated as the Son of God. As far as Jesus being a Spirit as the Son of God before or the Word, we do not have enough information in scriptures to know precisely what kind of body he had in glory. My position is that that is irrelevant. The truth that we must see is that he was the Son of God before coming to earth. He came from above. We must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, but Christ was born into the kingdom when he was begotten by God so he did not have to be born again.

Take care

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 21 2007,04:29)

WJ; You asked me if Jesus was born again.  He was not born again but he was incarnated as the Son of God.  As far as Jesus being a Spirit as the Son of God before or the Word, we do not have enough information in scriptures to know precisely what kind of body he had in glory.  My position is that that is irrelevant.  The truth that we must see is that he was the Son of God before coming to earth.  He came from above.  We must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, but Christ was born into the kingdom when he was begotten by God so he did not have to be born again.   Take care Steven

mr steve

You are making no sense to me.

You say he was “the Son” before he was born in the flesh, which implys by your own words that he had a beginning before coming in the flesh.

So basically you are denying that he was born at all in the flesh.

Scriptures teach very clearly that Jesus was born and became the “Son of God”.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

No way around it my friend. If you say Yeshua was born as a “Son” before the miraculous conception of Mary then you are saying Yeshua was “Born twice”.

You have not presented any scripture that says Yeshua was a Son before he was born a Son through the incarnation.

I have shown scriptures that Christ was not in the form of a Son before he came or the Apostles would have said so.

[IM4Truth]

W.J. Jesus did existed before He became a Man
Col. 1:15, Col. 1: !6, Rev. 3:14. Prov. 8:22-30
Co. 1:18 is a very important scripture because it explains that Jesus was the first in all , so He would have preeminence in all.
Jesus before He became a man, did not exist always. He had a beginning, but He was not formed out of the dust of the earth, He came forth from the Father. And it says nowhere that He was equal with the Father. He was the Son of God.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 20 2007,11:10)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2007,20:05) Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. T8, have you ever seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended? It's a yes or no question…. Is 1:18 You are correct. Kejonn looked over that scripture in my response to him.

Did I? Hmmm. Oh well. I guess I did overlook it since I can't remember ;).

Quote

What they are trying to say is the term invisibility is exclusive to the Father. Therfore 1 Tim 1:17 cannot apply to Yeshua. However the word “Invisible” is not exclusive of the Father as we see here… Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

What are these “invisible” things that were created? I can think of many: certain gases, waves of energy, emotions of people, etc. So in essence, spirit which is derived from the word for “breath” would essentially be invisible. So the spirit of Yeshua would be invisible, but is Yeshua himself invisible? He DID become a life-giving Spirit.

Yet we also see that Stephen was able to see Yeshua, but only the glory of God.

Act 7:55  But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Note again that it does not say that Stephen saw God, but that he saw the glory of God.

Quote

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This translation clears much up:

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is a very clear way of saying that we can see God by the creation. We cannot see the Spirit God, but we can come to “see” him in all that has been made by Him. And we see Him in His image, mankind.

Quote

Kejonn quoted Heb 11:27  but left out the previous verse… Heb 11: 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ (Messiah) greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Context!

All I can say in response is that you too need to go out a little further to get the real context ;).

Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25  choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:26  considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
Heb 11:27  By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

What do you think the “reward” was? Quite obvious, the same one that was promised to Abraham

Gen 22:18  “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

Even Moses knew of the Messiah to come some day because the knowledge of him had been passed down through Abraham and Isaac. So the context here is not pointing to Yeshua not being seen, unless you want to say he had not been physically seen yet. This can be realized in that he was only a prophecy at this point. Can anyone “see” a prophecy?

But  I have to stop right here and ask, are you certain you would like to pursue the line of reasoning that the writer of Hebrews is saying the unseen here is Yeshua? Think carefully because there has been a position put forth on this board that would crumble like a house of cards if you pursue it.

Quote

Moses by faith saw the Messiah who is invisible.

Hey, there it is. Yes, he was invisible at the time of Moses in that he was a prophecy at the time of Moses.

Quote

Now Yeshua had appeared for a time… Heb 9: 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear *the second time* without sin unto salvation.

Yes, he will return. What of it? We will be reunited with all of the dead loves ones we knoew in life one day to, so in that way, they are presently “invisible” to us.

I also know your line of reasoning in v.26, and it has to do with pre-existance, but the verse does not support it, nor does the context. Verse 26 basically tells us that his death was only required one time. Otherwise, he would have had to been brought forth from the beginning and put to death many times. One time was sufficient for all of history.

Quote

Surely Christ is invisble yet present, for he will appear again.

To the human eye, many things are invisible. I've never seen you so to me you are invisible. Christ lived with us (visible) and he will return (visible). But right now, is he “invisible”? No evidence, but he is not in our presence physically, so he is unseen.

Quote

Jesus said to Thomas… Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that *have not seen*, and yet have believed.

That has nothing to do with i
nvisibility. Do you believe Moses existed? Have you ever seen him? If you believe he existed, then by your own logic, he too is “invisible”. In fact, all spirits are invisible. But God is the only being ever called “invisible” in scripture.

But what does scripture say? You've all seen it: no one has seen God. Truly invisible in the greatest sense. Does scripture say “no one has seen Yeshua at any time”? Not invisible in the same sense.

Quote

1 Timothy 1:14-17 is clearly speaking of Yeshua in its context. But of course for those who dont believe have to say differently because the verse clearly says Jesus is God the the Word that was with God and the Word that was God that appeared in the flesh.

Not really. As I've shown, biblical context shows differently. Can I show you the context of the whole chapter to see who “God” in v17 is? The chapter starts out by clarifying it:

1Ti 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
1Ti 1:2  To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

So who is God in v17? According to the opening statement of this epistle to Timothy, it is God our Savior, further clarified by God the Father. There is no mention of “God the Son”. Thus Paul has already pointed out who he is calling God.

Quote

Thomas who doubted, doubted no more… Jn 20: 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You and I have already gone over those verses many times so I won't rehash. But I will answer one statement you made “Thomas who doubted, doubted no more”. You failed to mention what he doubted — not that Yeshua was God (no single instance that he ever considered it)

Joh 20:25  So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

The other disciples did not say “We have seen the Lord, and he is God!” did they? So what Thomas doubted was that they had seen Yeshua.

[Not3in1]

Special note to WJ and Isaiah,

Brothers, you have contributed much to my understanding of God and his Son, Jesus. Thank you for sharing from the Trinitarian side and giving us all much to ponder and pray about. I will be praying for you both during my break, and hope that when I return you both are still here – living and representing your God well.

All my best to you both!
Much love,
Mandy

[TimothyVI]

Dear sister Mandy,

God has asked for me to sit quietly and learn, not speak.
So I have been in the shadows reading what other people have to say.

I can remember when I had more posts than did you.

I will miss you while you are gone. Take care.

Tim

[Proclaimer]

[quote=IM4Truth,Sep. 21 2007,02:52]

Quote

Jesus isn't invisible, he is visible t8 What are you trying to say? Who said that? Jesus was visible when He walked this earth, but is not visible now! Or was He before He became a Man. Scriptures already given. Peace and Love Mrs.

Yes Jesus was visible as a man, but he is also visible in Heaven. It's just that we aren't in Heaven (in body).

I am sure that he is visible to angels for example, and Steven saw him when he looked up into heaven.

Likewise, I have never seen the Queen of England, because I haven't been to Buckingham Palace (in body). But I am sure that she is a visible being too.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 21 2007,07:49)

Special note to WJ and Isaiah, Brothers, you have contributed much to my understanding of God and his Son, Jesus.  Thank you for sharing from the Trinitarian side and giving us all much to ponder and pray about.  I will be praying for you both during my break, and hope that when I return you both are still here – living and representing your God well. All my best to you both! Much love, Mandy

not3

Thanks Sis. I hope we hear from you soon. May his love and grace be upon you and may his Spirit continue to lead you!

Blessings!  

[942767]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2007,20:05)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. T8, have you ever seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended? It's a yes or no question….

Hi Isaiah:

My understanding of the scripture that you quote is referring to the judgment of two or three gathered in his name judging righteously.  He is there in their midst in that He is the Word of God.

The governing authority is the Word of God.

Quote

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

God Bless

[Laurel]

94 bishop,
I have to agree with your understanding as well.
Laurel

[Worshipping Jesus]

kejonn

You say…

Quote

Did I? Hmmm. Oh well. I guess I did overlook it since I can't remember ;).

Well in my mind you didnt cover them!

Its real simple kejonn.

Invisible, greek, aoratos; which means…

1) unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible

Invisible;
1 a : incapable by nature of being seen b : inaccessible to view : HIDDEN
2 : IMPERCEPTIBLE, INCONSPICUOUS
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/invisible

Examples of Yeshua being invisible.

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In no way is Jesus saying he will be with them in their mind or some ethereal concept of his presence. Yeshua by his Spirit which is real and tangible with real substance is “in the midst of us”.
His presence is felt but our “Natural eyes” are holden so we cant see him. “Invisible”.

In fact he is the King of a kingdom which is not of this “Viisible” world. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within us! Can you see it kejonn? Have you ever seen Christ?

Lk 4:30
But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
How did he do this unless he is invisible?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Again, this is a real invisble Jesus that lives in me. His presence is real and tangible and has real substance, not just a figment of my imagination.

You say…

Quote

What are these “invisible” things that were created? I can think of many: certain gases, waves of energy, emotions of people, etc. So in essence, spirit which is derived from the word for “breath” would essentially be invisible. So the spirit of Yeshua would be invisible, but is Yeshua himself invisible? He DID become a life-giving Spirit. Yet we also see that Stephen was able to see Yeshua, but only the glory of God. Act 7:55  But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; Note again that it does not say that Stephen saw God, but that he saw the glory of God.

And what is your point?  My point is the word “invisible” is not exclusive to the Father.

Yeshua is also at this time invisible to the world.
The whole world can not see him. By faith they have to believe in an “Invisible Savior”. However Jesus can appear to anyone whenever he likes, as he did to Stephen. Did those stoning him see Yeshua?

You say…

Quote

This translation clears much up: Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. This is a very clear way of saying that we can see God by the creation. We cannot see the Spirit God, but we can come to “see” him in all that has been made by Him. And we see Him in His image, mankind.

Yes but the invisible attributes including his “Divine nature” is “still invisible” but revealed in the creation.

Correction, man is not “his image”, man is “made” in his image and after his likeness.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Jesus however is “The image of the invisble God”. But as it shows above the “Divine nature” or the “Image of God” is still invisible unless he is seen in the creation or unless he reveals himself.

Jesus will appear again.

You say…

Quote

All I can say in response is that you too need to go out a little further to get the real context . Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, Heb 11:25  choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, Heb 11:26  considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. Heb 11:27  By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. What do you think the “reward” was? Quite obvious, the same one that was promised to Abraham Gen 22:18  “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. Even Moses knew of the Messiah to come some day because the knowledge of him had been passed down through Abraham and Isaac. So the context here is not pointing to Yeshua not being seen, unless you want to say he had not been physically seen yet. This can be realized in that he was only a prophecy at this point. Can anyone “see” a prophecy?

Nice try my friend, but look again.

The reward is..

Heb 11:26  considering the reproach of **Christ greater riches** than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Compare that with Pauls words…

Eph 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Paul also esteemed Christ greater riches higher than the riches of the world…

Phil 3:
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

Heb 11:27
So then Moses “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

You say…

Quote

But  I have to stop right here and ask, are you certain you would like to pursue the line of reasoning that the writer of Hebrews is saying the unseen here is Yeshua? Think carefully because there has been a position put forth on this board that would crumble like a house of cards if you pursue it.

There is nothing to think about. Yeshua is invisible to mans eyes and can appear to man whenever he likes.

As you know Trinitarians believe Yeshua is the “I AM” that appeared to Moses and the Prophets and Patriarchs.

In fact it is the Non-Trinitarians that have a contradiction here.

Jn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

1 Jn 4:12
N
o man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Was John contradicting himself here? He heard Jesus say no man has seen the Father, yet Yeshua is a man and has seen the Father. When did he see him? And if he is just a man then John lied! Or else Jesus wasnt a man when he saw him!

But here is the thing kejonn. Where does it say that Angels, or other beings has not seen the Father? All three scriptures says “No man”.

You say…

Quote

Hey, there it is. Yes, he was invisible at the time of Moses in that he was a prophecy at the time of Moses.

It dosnt say Christ is a prophesy. It says by faith he left Egypt for the Greater riches of Christ and endured as seeing him who is unseen.  

You say…

Quote

Yes, he will return. What of it? We will be reunited with all of the dead loves ones we knoew in life one day to, so in that way, they are presently “invisible” to us. I also know your line of reasoning in v.26, and it has to do with pre-existance, but the verse does not support it, nor does the context. Verse 26 basically tells us that his death was only required one time. Otherwise, he would have had to been brought forth from the beginning and put to death many times. One time was sufficient for all of history.

No. It dosnt just say that at all.

Lets look at it again…

Heb 9:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear *the second time* without sin unto salvation.

To appear the second time means he had to of appeared a first time. The context clearly shows that Yeshua pre-existed or else the first part of verse 26 is obsolete.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It clearly indicates he was before the foundation of the world.
This lines up with a boatload of scriptures that says Jesus came down from heaven and returned back. Now to come again.

You say…

Quote

To the human eye, many things are invisible. I've never seen you so to me you are invisible. Christ lived with us (visible) and he will return (visible). But right now, is he “invisible”? No evidence, but he is not in our presence physically, so he is unseen.

Can you see him? Then to us he is invisible. To Paul he also was invisible. And yes I believe he is in our presence. I fell his presence litterally.

The Spiritual world is real and tangible or else invisible deamons couldnt manifest themselves in human flesh. Jesus said if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils then the Kingdom of God has come unto us. He said his Kingdom is not of this world, and he also said the Kingdom of God is in us. The Kingdom of God is invisible to us!

You say…

Quote

That has nothing to do with invisibility. Do you believe Moses existed? Have you ever seen him? If you believe he existed, then by your own logic, he too is “invisible”. In fact, all spirits are invisible. But God is the only being ever called “invisible” in scripture. But what does scripture say? You've all seen it: no one has seen God. Truly invisible in the greatest sense. Does scripture say “no one has seen Yeshua at any time”? Not invisible in the same sense.

Can you see Moses? Then to you he is invisible. But now you have different “sences” of Invisibility!

The scripture dosnt say “No One” has seen God! It says “No Man” has seen God. Invisible is invisible.  

You say…

Quote

Not really. As I've shown, biblical context shows differently. Can I show you the context of the whole chapter to see who “God” in v17 is? The chapter starts out by clarifying it: 1Ti 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 1Ti 1:2  To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. So who is God in v17? According to the opening statement of this epistle to Timothy, it is God our Savior, further clarified by God the Father. There is no mention of “God the Son”. Thus Paul has already pointed out who he is calling God.

So is your opinion! Verse 1 reads…

1 Tim 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

The grandville sharp rule says that the “Theos” in verse 1 is Yeshua. Therefore Paul is saying that both the Father in verse 2 and the son in verse 1 is God.

Verses 14:-17 in context confirm Jesus is God. Follow the Pronouns kejonn.

Later on in the Epistle Paul writes…

1Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Word “Theos” is found in the Greek Intelinear.

You say…

Quote

You and I have already gone over those verses many times so I won't rehash. But I will answer one statement you made “Thomas who doubted, doubted no more”. You failed to mention what he doubted — not that Yeshua was God (no single instance that he ever considered it) Joh 20:25  So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” The other disciples did not say “We have seen the Lord, and he is God!” did they? So what Thomas doubted was that they had seen Yeshua.

Hey, I never said he doubted that Jesus was God. I was simply pointing out that Thomas no longer doubting Thomas when he made the statement “My Lord and My God”, for I have heard you say to CB w
ould you believe the words of doubting Thomas.

The fact that John wrote ealier that the Apostles heard Jesus say I go to my God and your God is even more incredible that neither John nor Jesus rebuked him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

kejonn

I am still working on the other post. Thought I would get this one in.

[kejonn]

WJ,

Yes, I know .

[Proclaimer]

WJ.

No one can see God and no one has seen God at any time.

That alone rules Jesus out. He is visible. Scripture says so.

To say otherwise is to again twist that which is written to suit a certain belief.

[kejonn]

Since WJ is so prolific (He's like Max Lucado, hope that wasn't an insult!), I will break up the WJ's response for readability.
—————————————————–

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2007,01:43)

kejonn You say… Quote Did I? Hmmm. Oh well. I guess I did overlook it since I can't remember ;). Well in my mind you didnt cover them!

I can see that.

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Its real simple kejonn. Invisible, greek, aoratos; which means… 1) unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible Invisible; 1 a : incapable by nature of being seen b : inaccessible to view : HIDDEN 2 : IMPERCEPTIBLE, INCONSPICUOUS http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/invisible Examples of Yeshua being invisible. Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. In no way is Jesus saying he will be with them in their mind or some ethereal concept of his presence. Yeshua by his Spirit which is real and tangible with real substance is “in the midst of us”. His presence is felt but our “Natural eyes” are holden so we cant see him. “Invisible”.

True, but is the word “invisible” ever used of him in scripture? That is the key here, because as I pointed out to Is 1:18, Paul made similar statements. Therefore, Paul could be labeled as “invisible” by your logic. What that does then is lessen when the actual word “invisible” is applied to God.

1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus

Col 2:5  For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

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In fact he is the King of a kingdom which is not of this “Viisible” world. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within us! Can you see it kejonn? Have you ever seen Christ?

No but others have. Thus, he is not truly “invisible”, not in the same manner as God.

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Lk 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way, How did he do this unless he is invisible?

Huh? This verse says absolutely nothing of his “visibility”. This one is a stretch, don’t let your imagination make something out of this verse that is not there. The CEV version of this verse reads

Luk 4:30(CEV) But Jesus slipped through the crowd and got away.

If he was “invisible” why would he need to “slip through the crowd”?

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2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Again, this is a real invisble Jesus that lives in me. His presence is real and tangible and has real substance, not just a figment of my imagination.

This is true, but again I must re-emphasize that the word “invisible” in the Bible was never applied to him. That, as I am pointing out, is the true measure. The fact of the matter is that he has been both visible and invisible, but God is always invisible as God is Spirit. No humanity to God, no “solid” substance.

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You say… Quote What are these “invisible” things that were created? I can think of many: certain gases, waves of energy, emotions of people, etc. So in essence, spirit which is derived from the word for “breath” would essentially be invisible. So the spirit of Yeshua would be invisible, but is Yeshua himself invisible? He DID become a life-giving Spirit. Yet we also see that Stephen was able to see Yeshua, but only the glory of God. Act 7:55  But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; Note again that it does not say that Stephen saw God, but that he saw the glory of God. And what is your point?  My point is the word “invisible” is not exclusive to the Father.

In the Bible, the actual word is. The only other time you see the actual word “invisible” used is in relation to all things created . Every other use is applied to God alone. So while you’re examples of him being unseen are true, the actual usage of the word in scripture never once is applied to Yeshua.

To go further, the Greek word used for “invisible” is “aoratos”, and it is applied to God only in Rom 1:20, Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17, and Heb 11:27. The only other instance of “aoratos” is for the “invisible” things of creation in Col 1:16. Thus, scripturally, only God is called “invisible”, and only by implication is Yeshua thought to be “invisible”.

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Yeshua is also at this time invisible to the world. The whole world can not see him. By faith they have to believe in an “Invisible Savior”. However Jesus can appear to anyone whenever he likes, as he did to Stephen. Did those stoning him see Yeshua?

No, but they would see him for who he was while he walked among them either. But you miss the point of how Stephen was able to see the Yeshua:

Act 7:55  But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Stephen could not see Yeshua in heaven lest he be filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not in those who stoned him.

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You say… Quote This translation clears much up: Rom 1:20  For since the creat ion of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. This is a very clear way of saying that we can see God by the creation. We cannot see the Spirit God, but we can come to “see” him in all that has been made by Him. And we see Him in His image, mankind. Yes but the invisible attributes including his “Divine nature” is “still invisible” but revealed in the creation. Correction, man is not “his image”, man is “made” in his image and after his likeness.

And Yeshua was a man. Regardless, both mankind and Yeshua are the image of God. You can’t escape the fact that man was made in the image of God and that Yeshua was born a man (not adult obviously). The two go hand-in-hand. However, he was a truer image of God because he is the Son of God. My own son is a truer image of me than some other person who does not have my genetics. And Yeshua was sent by his Father to be His “word” to humanity.

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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Jesus however is “The image of the invisble God”. But as it shows above the “Divine nature” or the “Image of God” is still invisible unless he is seen in the creation or unless he reveals himself.

Actually, it is basically saying that Yeshua is the image of the God who is invisible. Thus, the “invisible God”. Does God have any other nature besides a “divine” nature? He is fully and wholly divine.

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Nice try my friend, but look again. The reward is.. Heb 11:26  considering the reproach of **Christ greater riches** than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Obviously, you are missing out in the wording of this verse: “he was looking to the reward”. The sense of this verse states that Moses was looking to the future for a reward that was promised. He was not looking at some present reality. Here are some other translations that clarify the sense of this verse

(CEV)  Moses knew that the treasures of Egypt were not as wonderful as what he would receive from suffering for the Messiah, and he looked forward to his reward.

(ISV)  He thought that being insulted for the sake of Christ was of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

(NIV)  He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

(NLT)  He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of the Messiah than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to the great reward that God would give him.

Thus, Moses was looking to some future reward. Now, one can envision such a thing in the mind, but there was no present visual reality for Moses.

Furthermore, Moses knew there would be a Messiah, a Christ. He did not know anything about him other than what God had revealed to him. Now let’s break down the actual verse in question.

Heb 11:27(KJV)  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

I chose to use the KJV here because it uses “invisible” because the Greek word is “aoratos”, as I’ve already covered. But what about the word used for “seeing” in this verse? The Greek word is “horao”, which according to Strong’s is

Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: – behold, perceive, see, take heed.

Thus, “seeing” here does not necessarily mean “seeing” in the visual sense with the eye. It could be “perceived” as well, and we know that Moses “perceived” God on many occasions.

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Compare that with Pauls words… Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

C’mon WJ, you’re starting to get off track here. We’re talking about the word “invisible” and how it is applied to God and you go into other avenues to prove your point. Look at how other translations render this verse so you can gain a greater sense for the Greek word “anexichniastos” used here for “unsearchable”

(CEV)  I am the least important of all God's people. But God was kind and chose me to tell the Gentiles that because of Christ there are blessings that cannot be measured.

(ISV)  To me, the very least of all the saints, this grace was given so that I might proclaim to the gentiles the immeasurable wealth of Christ

(NASB)  To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Strong’s says the word basically means:

From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2487; not tracked out, that is, (by implication) untraceable: – past finding out, unsearchable.

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Paul also esteemed Christ greater riches higher than the riches of the world… Phil 3: 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

What does this have to do with the “invisibility” of Yeshua?

On to the next part….

[Worshipping Jesus]

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WJ. No one can see God and no one has seen God at any time. That alone rules Jesus out. He is visible. Scripture says so. To say otherwise is to again twist that which is written to suit a certain belief. whom no one has seen or can see, no man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

t8

The scriputers do not say “NO ONE” has seen God.

It says “No One” has seen the Father”.

Look again…
Jn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

The Father.

1 Jn 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Context is the Father.

Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The Father.

1 Tim 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yeshua here dwells in the light which no man hath seen, nor can see, the Father.

If you say that God has not been seen then you contradict or deny that he Appeared and was seen by Moses, the Patriarchs and the Prophets.

But again, the Father is not the only one invisible, he is the only one that will never be seen. The Father cannot be seen by mortal men, but Yeshua who is the “Image of the Invisible God” has revealed him.

Yet this same Jesus is now invisile to the world untill he appears again.

If Yeshua was just a man and you say no one has seen the Father, you have a contradiction.

Yeshua is God and has seen the Father.

[Mr. Steve]

To all;

I'm trying to find the point in whether or not God is invisible or visible, and what kind of body, if any, God and Jesus possess. Where is this an issue in scripture?

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

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True, but is the word “invisible” ever used of him in scripture?

Yes, 1 Tim 1:16.

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That is the key here, because as I pointed out to Is 1:18, Paul made similar statements. Therefore, Paul could be labeled as “invisible” by your logic. What that does then is lessen when the actual word “invisible” is applied to God. 1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Col 2:5  For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

What are you saying? That Paul was dwelling in them or that he was standing in their midst?

Quite different from…

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jesus is litterally in us and with us. Paul or no man can do that.

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No but others have. Thus, he is not truly “invisible”, not in the same manner as God.

Yes the Father cannot be seen, but Jesus is just as invisible to man as the Father is.

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Huh? This verse says absolutely nothing of his “visibility”. This one is a stretch, don’t let your imagination make something out of this verse that is not there. The CEV version of this verse reads Luk 4:30(CEV) But Jesus slipped through the crowd and got away. If he was “invisible” why would he need to “slip through the crowd”?

All the other translations use the word “Passing”.

Lk 4: NIV This is your version.
29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff.
30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

NASB
29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.

Looks like he was invisible to me.

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This is true, but again I must re-emphasize that the word “invisible” in the Bible was never applied to him.

1 Tim 1:16.

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That, as I am pointing out, is the true measure. The fact of the matter is that he has been both visible and invisible, but God is always invisible as God is Spirit. No humanity to God, no “solid” substance.

What are you saying? That Jesus is not Spirit? It is he that dwells in us. The last time I looked he is invisible. But again ch 3:16 Paul says God came in the flesh so obviously Paul is not limiting the term God to just the Father.

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In the Bible, the actual word is. The only other time you see the actual word “invisible” used is in relation to all things created . Every other use is applied to God alone. So while you’re examples of him being unseen are true, the actual usage of the word in scripture never once is applied to Yeshua.

Yes, but the word “Invisible” is used for all things created, Right? My contention is not that the Father can be seen. But that the Father is not the only one “Invisible”. So your argument that 1 Tim 1:16 is the Father because of this, is not true. Especially in light of 1 Tim 1:1 and 3:16.

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To go further, the Greek word used for “invisible” is “aoratos”, and it is applied to God only in Rom 1:20, Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17, and Heb 11:27. The only other instance of “aoratos” is for the “invisible” things of creation in Col 1:16. Thus, scripturally, only God is called “invisible”, and only by implication is Yeshua thought to be “invisible”.

Not by implication. Yeshua is invisible to humanity at this time.
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No, but they would see him for who he was while he walked among them either. But you miss the point of how Stephen was able to see the Yeshua: Act 7:55  But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; Stephen could not see Yeshua in heaven lest he be filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not in those who stoned him.

No I am not missing the point. Yeshua is invisible to Stephen and those stoning him until Yeshua reveals himself. Since Yeshua is the image of the invisible God then Stephen was seeing the visual image of God therefore seeing God. “If you have seen me you have seen the Father (God)”.

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And Yeshua was a man. Regardless, both mankind and Yeshua are the image of God. You can’t escape the fact that man was made in the image of God and that Yeshua was born a man (not adult obviously). The two go hand-in-hand. However, he was a truer image of God because he is the Son of God. My own son is a truer image of me than some other person who does not have my genetics. And Yeshua was sent by his Father to be His “word” to humanity.

What are you saying? That Yeshua is only flesh? “Made in the image of God” and “Being the Image of God” is two different things. The term “Image of the invisible God” and “Image of God” is only ascribed to Yeshua.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, afterour likeness:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Can you show me a scripture that says Yeshua is made in the image of God?

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Actually, it is basically saying that Yeshua is the image of the God who is invisible. Thus, the “invisible God”. Does God have any other nature besides a “divine” nature? He is fully and wholly divine.

Are you saying Yeshua is not fully and wholly divine?

Boy you like the NLT don’t you? There is no other translation on Blueletterbible.com that translates it… “the image of the God who is invisible”.

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Obviously, you are missing out in the wording of this verse: “he was looking to the reward”. The sense of this verse states that Moses was looking to the future for a reward that was promised. He was not looking at some present reality. Here are some other translations that clarify the sense of this verse

The context in fact the very verse shows what the reward is look again…

Heb 11:26 NASB
considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
The reward is Christ riches that he esteemed greater than the treasures of Egypt.
Yes he was looking ahead to Christ as the coming Messiah.

But he also seen the invisible Christ.
Heb 11:27(KJV)  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
The context is clearly showing he saw him who is invisible.

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Thus, “seeing” here does not necessarily mean “seeing” in the visual sense with the eye. It could be “perceived” as well, and we know that Moses “perceived” God on many occasions.

Yes but none of the translators translated it that way. I will trust their judgment over yours.

You say…

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C’mon WJ, you’re starting to get off track here. We’re talking about the word “invisible” and how it is applied to God and you go into other avenues to prove your point. Look at how other translations render this verse so you can gain a greater sense for the Greek word “anexichniastos” used here for “unsearchable” I will go with the majority of the translations. But you are missing my point. I am saying Moses was looking for the same thing we are Christ riches. To win Christ in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge dwells. You say…[quote] What does this have to do with the “invisibility” of Yeshua? On to the next part….

See above…

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