The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,04:58)

Hi Dora
“all is subject to God's law[his kingdom]” is what you said . What did you mean?
PS if you get a private message check your messenger upper R screen. Bless you.

God set the laws that govern creation in the beginning…from the fall until Messiah God spoke of Messiah who would be His king…(psalm 2:6) “I (YVAH) have set my KING upon My holy hill of Zion”

God governs in the earth by Messiah because all things were created from the beginning for Messiah (the anointed ONE)…Jesus was the anointed one & there is no other…he is the only one that is appointed hier of all creation…that is his anointing, ie, to be God's king & our Lord…every knee will bow & proclaim that he is Lord…that does not mean that he is the pre-existing deity, but he was made Lord by the only deity, his father & ours (john 20:17)

if Jesus said that the Father is his deity & ours do we really want to make up a doctrine that says otherwise just so we can fit in with a group where we feel we belong? we cant love God without loving our brother, but our brothers are not always guaranteed to love us back…that doesnt eleviate our obligation to love them because that is the only command that Jesus gave…we must love one another as he has loved us

now, if he laid his life down for us that is a pretty tall order…that means if our brother hurts our feelings we have to be willing to lay our emotions down & follow Jesus' command if we call him Lord…this is compromised a great deal & i fear for the church of whom i am a member & Jesus is the head…there will be a falling away…while men are compromising thier hearts & souls to appease religion in his name they grow cold in heart…only if we abide in him are we his & some are calling on his name without knowing him as Lord…a great majority of them do so to please men & conform to thier denomination

but the law that is without law is God & what He says is so & will not change no matter what we beleive, so it is most important that we make our calling & election sure…not through traditions, or fear, or ritual, but the reality of His love found only in His son…the only way to abide in the son is to get to know his ways & follow them, for you can have all faith & do all good works, & not know him because you dont do what he says

January 11, 2005 at 8:38 am#16051

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,20:50)

Hi liljon,
1Cor 1.2
” to the church of God which is at Corinth,to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints BY CALLING ,with all who in every place CALL upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”
We are called and chosen,we call Jesus our Saviour.
But
we do not pray to him if we are in him do we?

Nick,
I would think very carefully before I told anyone not to pray to Jesus. He wants a personal relationship with us and its hard to have that with someone you ignore.

In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” The word fellowship is the Greek word “koinonia” which is also translated as the word “communion.” This verse says that we are to have an intimate fellowship with Jesus. But, how can we have fellowship with someone we never talk to?

Jesus said in John 14
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Be careful what you teach Nick.

January 11, 2005 at 4:29 pm#16052

Participant

When the Lord appeared to Annanias he said (9:14) said he (paul) was someone who was binding peopel who called on his name (prayer)
Paul in Romans applies Joel's prophecy to Jesus saying that Jesus is the Lord (YhVH)

January 11, 2005 at 5:35 pm#16053

Participant

Hi Modem mouth,
Thank you for the warning. None of us walks alone and we all need the admonition of others.
I am very careful about what I teach. That is why I do not teach the concept of trinity as it is not biblical. Do you agree?

I pray to the Father as Jesus told his followers to do.
I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus as I am in him.
I bless the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in whom I am called to fellowship.
I speak praise to my lord and his Father.

But I do not pray to Jesus in the name of Jesus.

Jn16.26 ” In that day you will ask in my name.
I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
No .The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God”

Rev 4.11 about God
” You are worthy,our Lord and God ,to receive glory and honour and power,for you created all things and by your will they were created and have their being”

Rev 5.12 about Jesus after his resurrection to glory.
” ..Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise”
Rev 6.10″..Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb”

What a privilege to be seated with the Lamb at the right hand of the Father in Glory[coll 3.1]Yeshua was given a name that is above every other name under God. Every knee shall bow to the Son of God.

I am a branch of the vine. He is my lord and the Father is Lord of all.

January 11, 2005 at 6:28 pm#16054

WhatIsTrue

Participant

liljohn,

Psalm 110:
1 The LORD[YHVH] says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Who is YHVH talking to?

January 11, 2005 at 9:55 pm#16055

Participant

Jesus who else?

January 11, 2005 at 10:02 pm#16056

Participant

But Psalms 110 calls him Adonay which is Only used of God

January 11, 2005 at 11:14 pm#16057

Anonymous

Guest

Nick,
Lets stick to the issues and keep the trinity out of this, the issue is “should we pray to Jesus?”, regardless of who He is.
Liljon and myself have proven it is scriptural to pray to Jesus. If you maintain that we should ignore Jesus in our prayers then I can only assume that you aren't interested in the truth, only defending your own theology. If you don't want a relationship with Jesus thats fine, but consciously leading others out of a relationship with Jesus Christ is serious. You cannot have a relationship with someone you don't talk to.

Please pray about this and consider the repercussions.

January 12, 2005 at 12:01 am#16058

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/adonai.htm

Participant

Hi MM,
I agree.
We should search the scriptures to see if these things are true. Should we do as we are told as servants?
Yes we should.
So let's search.

Did Jesus ever even suggest we should pray to him?
No.
He said we should pray to the Father.
He also said to pray in his name which we do -to the Father.

Ok did any of the new testament teachers tell us to pray to Jesus . No.

Ok. The other option is to search the Book of Acts and see what they did.

Is anyone in Acts recorded as praying to Jesus. No.

So the only evidence you have is that his followers call on his name? Is that in prayer? It does not say so.

I am just appealing to you to give me more evidence than what you have that we should do so. I want to know too.

Is that fair?

January 12, 2005 at 12:24 am#16059

Adam Pastor

Participant

Quote (liljon @ Jan. 11 2005,22:02)

But Psalms 110 calls him Adonay which is Only used of God

Not so, liljon

He is actually called adoni, which is only used in regards to beings who are NOT Almighty GOD
i.e. human and angelic beings

Psalms 110.1 states: YAHWEH said unto adoni

The Hebrew word 'adoni' occurs 195 times in the OT; it is NEVER EVER used in ref. to Almighty GOD; it is solely used in ref. to beings who are NOT Almighty GOD i.e. humans & occasionally angels.
(Of course, Jesus is not an angelic being [Heb 1.5, 13, 2.5-9,etc; he is a human being [1 Tim 2.5])

Therefore, there are 195 clues in the Hebrew Bible alone to indicate to the reader that the Messiah is NOT Almighty GOD!!

Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord Messiah NOT the Lord GOD
He is Lord … the Lord Messiah [Luke 2.11, Col 3.24]

Be Berean. Check the above assertions for yourself!!
For more info, see

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/adoni.htm

http://www.geocities.com/yhwhbible/adoni.htm

January 12, 2005 at 4:30 am#16060

Anonymous

Guest

Hi Nick,
I did, perhaps you didn't see my post, so ill paste it again:

Quote

In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” The word fellowship is the Greek word “koinonia” which is also translated as the word “communion” This verse says that we are to have an intimate fellowship with Jesus. But, how can we have fellowship with someone we never talk to?

Jesus said in John 14
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

PS I hope i havent come across as being to blunt. I have been pressed for time when i have posted and brevity can often be misconstrewed as agro. Forgive me if i have offended.

That said I still think you're wrong and i think this is one thing you don't want to get wrong, and then lead others into the same error.

January 12, 2005 at 4:42 am#16061

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:03)

Hi Dora,
I think of Jesus as the light that came into the world[jn1]to dispel the darkness. The prince of darkness ruled over the kingdom of darkness. The father of lies ruled over the kingdom of lies.
Jesus is the Way the truth and the life.

The light is truth.
The word is truth.
The logos is truth.
The truth exposed the lies.
The light expelled the darkness.

The logos is also the bread that came from heaven.
He is the life.
He who eats of this bread will live forever.
Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Those that obey God love the soul food that is the word of God and feed avidly on it.

Jesus is the way.
He said 'follow me'
He died and was raised .
we must die in baptism and be raised by the Spirit.

What do you think?

whew! you have made quite a statement & responding to it is shall we say, quite a task

thanks for the challenge

you say you believe that Jesus was the light that came into the world to dispel the darkness…well, that darkness that was upon the face of the deep before God spoke, “light be” does not seem to be a “prince”…it was the absence of light & God is light…the darkness was there because the earth was yet without form & void…the vast vacuum of the void was covered with a fog or some form of condensation called “the face of the deep”…the word deep is an expanse of abyss

this is very interesting bc the word face in that scripture is literal…in other words it means the face of God…the way that face is used is as one turning their face away or toward something…in this case, the darkness was there bc the face of God was turned away…& then the spirit of God moved God to turn His face toward the darkness & God's face is light…when God turns His face toward you the scriptures say His face shines on you, ie, favor, or His goodness is extended to you & He is glorified for His goodness

what happened when light shines on water? there is refelction…thus God beheld His express image as in a miror…thus began His purpose for creation, ie, to bring about His express image & His express image is light…there is one difference however…the light that is God is not made or spoken into being…HE IS…whew, awesome, huh?

the 1st thing that God said was “light be”…in other words the light that is shall be…He is the light that is & His express image, the logos, or “light be” was predestined…God made Adam & set him apart in a garden, or spiritual abode filled with the goodness of God

when God spoke His purpose on day one of creation, He separated the light from the darkness…He called the light day & the darkness He called night…He said the light was good but he didnt call the night good

now, many would think this darkness was God creating satan, but what is was is simply the absence of the presence of God…the day of the Lord is Messiah, who is the light made flesh…the light is the word (logos)…it is the 1st word spoken by God…thus john 1:1 means that there was only God in the beginning & His purpose, the logos, was divine & his purpose was to create the heavens & earth for his son who was not yet born…but God saw the end from the beginning & purposed that His express image would be found in flesh

it is God who created procreation to bring forth His son in the birth process…there is nothing evil about the flesh…it is what the flesh appetites have become that is evil, but Jesus destroyed the works of the devil in his own flesh body…the incarnation theory completely ignores the precious flesh body of Jesus & that is an antichrist spirit, ie, it is against the truth about Messiah

Jesus said the devil was a murderer from the beginning…this is not a holy angel…it is a murderer…who was the 1st murderer? Adam…adam murdered eve…how so? bc he knew she was decieved & did nothing to help her…he was there with her (gen 3:6)..adam was not decieved & he knew if she ate she would die & he did nothing to stop her

who was the next murderer? Cain, adam's son, ie, the seed of the serpent…cain killed his brother bc of jealousy & religion…religion? yes…God required sacrifice of blood for sin & cain decided to make his own rules…that is religion

the curse on cain was that he was cut off from the presence of God forever & he was a vagabond & fugitive in the earth…cain said the Lord had driven him out from the face of the earth & from the face of God (which is His favor) & he said that every man that would find him would kill him (gen 4)

what was the mark that God put upon cain to spare him from being killed? we dont know, but we can safely say that the punishment of cain fits the description of satan who goes to & fro in the earth & up & down in it, ie, seeking who he may devour…we are never told what happened to cain…we arent told when he died or how, but cain's eternal soul was cut off from God without hope of reconciliation…he was the 1st son of God to be eternally damned due to murder

Adam repented & was reconciled…thus, guess what? cain became an evil spirit, a devil, satan & is held in chains under darkness until the judgement…he left his 1st habitation which was favor with God (jude 6)…the fallen angels in jude & peter are apostates…angel = messenger…we are all spiritual messengers in the earth either for light or for darkness, but fallen angels are those who were once enlightened as was cain

hatred is the same as murder & all who hate are not of God…hatred mixed with faith is the seed of the serpent bc it is a form of idolotry & witchcraft as is stubborness & rebellion

it is easy to put together phrases & statements without understanding & there are many religious slogans that arent explained

January 12, 2005 at 11:20 am#16062

Participant

Hi Modem mouth,

In the Body of Christ, Jesus is the head.
He is Lord.
We bear his name.
He call us his brothers[Heb 2.11]
He is the vine and we are the branches.
Without him we can do nothing.
He supplies the sap to the branches so they can produce fruit for the gardener.
He sends us the Holy Spirit.

He is again the agent who does and supplies whatever we ask the Father in his name.

But we worship and pray to the Father.

January 12, 2005 at 11:43 am#16063

Participant

Hi Dora,
I will read your posts fully as I always do.But I would like to make some points.
This forum is most effective when it is used for the direct exposition of scripture with backup scriptures as further evidence. We all share the same bible and other versions often add light.
When teachers use derived or denominational doctrines then it can cause confusion. We do not all share the same basis of belief and so it tends to divide.
Emphasis on interpretation rather than truth itself has the same effect as we often reach different conclusions initially on a verse or a word. Allegory and synonym are tools of this type. Scripture will, however, interpret itself if we allow it and patiently search.
Human wisdom is deceptive. That is why Jesus thanked the Father for revealing to the merest children what he witheld from the wise and clever. As Paul said

'For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom”
And James
” But the wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere”

At first glance[no offence] your teachings and spiritual constructs seem to me to be a little intellectual and abstract and at times perhaps bizarre?

I prefer simple clear bible revelation.

Where do you get your concept of spirit+body = soul from in the bible for example??

Anyone whose logic can define the dangerous spiritual being called Satan out of existence will always raise my eyebrows.

January 12, 2005 at 1:00 pm#16064

Participant

Actually Adoni can be used of GOD (at least that's what my Strongs concordance says) Plus I was referrring to 110:5 not 1

January 12, 2005 at 2:36 pm#16065

Adam Pastor

Participant

Quote (liljon @ Jan. 12 2005,13:00)

Actually Adoni can be used of GOD (at least that's what my Strongs concordance says) Plus I was referrring to 110:5 not 1

Psalm 110.5 is speaking of YAHWEH who when it comes to striking through the kings, will be at the Messiah's right hand i.e. will be the source of the Messiah's strength, power & victory.
This will commence at the Second Coming of the Messiah.

Whilst verse 1: YAHWEH invites the Messiah to sit at his right hand. This was fulfiled at the ascension of the Messiah.

Adonai is the title which denotes Almighty GOD alone.
It is His title, which denotes Him as the Supreme Lord!
Hence, the Jews use this title today when speaking of GOD.
Generally, translated in the KJV as 'Lord'

Used with his name esp. frequently in Ezekiel i.e.
Adonai YAHWEH = the Lord YAHWEH
translated in the KJV as (note the case)
the Lord GOD

As for the Strong's concordance ..
altho' a great tool, it does not differentiate between
adon and adoni, which are similar yet different Hebrew words. It assigns them the very same number.

Indeed, adon is used in regards to men the majority of cases; and used in regards to Almighty GOD about 25 times.
However, adoni, is never ever used in regards to GOD; its used solely to reflect beings who are NOT GOD.

Software, such as Bibleworks, where you can search the actual Hebrew words, would show you the difference.

Hope I have clarified things.

January 12, 2005 at 4:12 pm#16067

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2005,11:43)

At first glance[no offence] your teachings and spiritual constructs seem to me to be a little intellectual and abstract and at times perhaps bizarre?

I prefer simple clear bible revelation.

Where do you get your concept of spirit+body = soul from in the bible for example??

Anyone whose logic can define the dangerous spiritual being called Satan out of existence will always raise my eyebrows.

I respect your criticism & admonishion, Nick, & this is your site…of course I will honor your requests & opinions…I dont wish to be an instrument of division…I have just come here to share “my part” in the body…it may not be the same as another but we are all one body & members in particular

i dont blame you for being leary of what i say about “satan” & the theory of him being a fallen angel, but i'm sorry, i cant agree with something that is not sound scripturally no matter how it may appear to be revealed by certain verses that are misunderstood…however, i certainly will not insist on viewing what i see in this respect if it it disturbs you

anything i say can be backed with scripture, but i agree is isnt the established doctrines that say Jesus is deity incarnate & satan is a fallen angel because that is not sound based on scripture theme or content…if you find that bazaar it is because you have not researched it to see if it be true…you have judged it according to what you believe

what i find in scripture is gleaned with prayer & fasting & waiting on God & not logic, but if that is what you see i respect your opinion

i will answer your question about the soul>>the main example we have is Adam…Adam's body was formed 1st & then God breathed into him the breath of life, ie, spirit, & he became a living soul…the body is dead without the spirit, but the spirit lives without the body…i glean from all scripture combined that the soul is the result of the body & spirit as a whole…for instance, if we were not born we would not have a body or a spirit & there would be no expression of such, which is the soul

why do you disagree?

January 12, 2005 at 4:16 pm#16068

Participant

Adam pastor, i very much like what you have to say & i agree

January 12, 2005 at 4:31 pm#16069