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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2007,04:11) Quote (Laurel @ Aug. 03 2007,16:38) Gene,
I think we can study the Hebrew for the most valid writings of Scripture. Greek and Latin are like you say, sometimes written with the understanding of men, through years of being retranslated. It is a good practice to pray before reading Scripture, and ask for the Spirit of truth to be our guide.When I come upon something that dosen't make sense, it means I'm not supposed to knw. After more reading and understanding, these unknown things become known in His time. So therefore I do not use books written by theologians to interpret His Word for me. I wait and let Him do that.
Laurel….I agree that the Hebrew text is the lest tampered with, however i respectively disagree with what you said about not knowing somthing because God might not want you to know about somthing that has been written. Let me explain why.Mark4:11-12, after Jesus gave the parable of the sower his deciples came to him privately as he told them the reason he spoke in parables was to fullfill the prophecys of Issiah, that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not,least they should see and hear and turn and their sins be forgiven them.
This might be a shocker ot some, but Jesus was not trying to save everyone, only those that God was Calling . Then he reexplained the Sower Parable to his deciples. Most people stop there, but Jesus went on to say, ” is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed?, is it not to be set on a lampstand? ” for there is NOTHING hidden which will NOT BE REVEALED, nor has ANYTHING been Keep SECRET but that it should come to light, Then he say's “If anyone Has ears to hear let him hear.Jesus was encouraging those who have ears to hear to comtinue to shearch, knock, ask, and it will all be revealed to them. This was a private form of encouragement to all who God is working with.
And in Verse 24 He tell us ” take head to what you hear, with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
We are to use every tool we have to get to the truth of things, I have many times been reading and come across something that made no sense and through delegent study found the truth of the text, and while prayer is a way we should always seek things but i beleive you can pray all you want but if you don't apply yourself to study you are not seeking or knocking you will be given nothing.
God is not mocked, you must apply yourself and that is more then Just asking, for him to show you something. If it were just a matter of asking we could all throw our bibles away an simple ask.
Gene,
I need to clarify what I said, because I agree with you. What I am saying is that we are shown more as He sees we are able to grasp. There are things we need to learn first, then we are given to know more after that.Yes, we must be diligent in our study. You and I both know that we don't know everything there is to know. Not because we don't seek to know, because we do seek.
I believe the first thing we need to learn after believing that Y'shua is the Messiah and the Son of Elohim, is that we need to be obedient to His Torah. The basics of the Torah are the 10 commandments, and even more simply, the two great commands, which sum up the Torah.
He sees our faith and gives us fruits of His Spirit, by our faith, and how we use it.
Y'shua gave us the sower's parable, and it says to me that if we sow in fertile ground the seed will grow and prosper. YHWH will sow His Spirit on fertile ground also, where it will grow and prosper. YHWH will not sow His Spiritual seed on infertile ground, neither should we.
I would like to note that the Gospel is not “Y'shua”. Y'shua taught the Gospel.
To see a very good definition of the gospel read these:
Luk 4:18 The Spirit4151 of the Lord2962 is upon1909 me,1691 because3739, 1752 he hath anointed5548 me3165 to preach the gospel2097 to the poor;4434 he hath sent649 me3165 to heal2390 the3588 brokenhearted,4937, 2588 to preach2784 deliverance859 to the captives,164 and2532 recovering of sight309 to the blind,5185 to set649 at1722 liberty859 them that are bruised,2Rev 14:6 And2532 I saw1492 another243 angel32 fly4072 in1722 the midst of heaven,3321 having2192 the everlasting166 gospel2098 to preach2097 unto them that dwell2730 on1909 the3588 earth,1093 and2532 to every3956 nation,1484 and2532 kindred,5443 and2532 tongue,1100 and2532 people,2992
Rev 14:7 Saying3004 with1722 a loud3173 voice,5456 Fear5399 God,2316 and2532 give1325 glory1391 to him;846 for3754 the3588 hour5610 of his848 judgment2920 is come:2064 and2532 worship4352 him that made4160 heaven,3772 and2532 earth,1093 and2532 the3588 sea,2281 and2532 the fountains4077 of waters.5204Revelations 14:7 is the gospel that Y'shua taught.
The gospel message is not authentic unless it ends with a warning that judgment is near.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 04 2007,10:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2007,17:39) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 04 2007,08:59) Seeking, I would surmise that many teachers amd preachers you mentioned don't really think of the Trinity the same way those on this board do. They stay busy teaching and studying other things. I took the Trinity doctrine for granted (and true) for 20 years because I have been in Southern Baptist churches my whole Christian life. The fact of the matter is, you rarely hear the Trinity being brought up in most churches and almost as rarely do you hear people say Jesus is God.
Yet, we are told that the Trinity is foundational to Christian faith. The lack of teaching denies this IMO. And I think that it is not taught because trying to explain it to the masses is not easy. So my assumption is that most take a silent support position.
When I told my former pastor I no longer believed the Trinity, he gave me a book called The Forgotten Trinity. The title says it all. Most people do not really know what it is and most put it to the back of their mind and avoid talking about it.
kejonnI am curious as to how you know what all these Churches preaches since you spent 20 years in a Baptist denomination
Have you been in any full Gospel, penticostal, charismatic churches long enough to know what they teach?
While it is true that most ministers are busy preaching Jesus and him crucified does not mean that there is not teaching going on the churches regarding the trinity. I have been in full Gospell churches for 33 years and the trinity is understood and Jesus is praised and worshipped as God. There is also much teaching on the work of the Holy Spirit which trinitarians believe is God also.
Just curious as to how you can make the observation that they dont talk about it because it is hard to understand.
I dont find this so at all.
WJ,Just curious, but why would a book need to be written called The Forgotten Trinity? Seems the title pretty much tells you that most denominations do not teach it much at all. I've never even seen a Full Gospel Church in my neck of the woods and I live smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt
.If you did a impromptu survey you'd find out that most Christians don't have a clue on the Trinity. Try it some day, I bet you would be surprised.
kejonnI dont know why the guy wrote the book.
But I doubt very seriously that the one book measures the temperature of millions of believers in the Body of Christ world wide.
All you have to do is type in google the trinity and you will get plenty of teaching and books on the subject. So its not such a big secret like you think!
Maybe t8 could do a survey on this site to see how many here was saved as a trinitarian and then left it.
WJ,
You are a JW correct?
If so, why do you worship on the 1st day of the week. JW's seem to have more truths than other churches, but this one thing I can't figure out? Why Sun-day?Quote (Laurel @ Aug. 04 2007,18:06) WJ,
You are a JW correct?
If so, why do you worship on the 1st day of the week. JW's seem to have more truths than other churches, but this one thing I can't figure out? Why Sun-day?
laurelNo I am not a JW.
I meet on sunday because the early Christians met on sunday celebrating the resurection of our Lord on the 1st day of the week.
“When he had gone through those districts and had given them much exhortation, he came to Greece. And there he spent three months, and when a plot was formed against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. And he was accompanied by Sopater of Berea, the son of Pyrrhus, and by Aristarchus and Secundus of the Thessalonians, and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy, and Tychicus and Trophimus of Asia. But these had gone on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas. We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days. And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. And there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. And there was a certain young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor, and was picked up dead. But Paul went down and fell upon him and after embracing him, he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.” And when he had gone back up, and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. And they took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted. (Acts 20:7-12)
http://www.bible.ca/7-sunday-weekly-communion-acts-20-7.htm
I see you base your Sun-day tradition on the fact that the Jews who followed Messiah kept their tradition of a meal together after the Sabbath, and ignore the fact that they still worshiped on the Sabbath and kept the Feasts. OK
I see also that you did not study the Scriptures or the words of the Messiah who said He would be in the tomb for three days and three nights. That was the “only” sign He gave to us that He was truely the Messiah. You believe Y'shua was a liar since Friday sundown to Sun-day sunrise is only one and one half days.
Laurel my sabbath honoring friend, first let me say happy sabbath then let me say I have a post for you on pg 814 that there has been no comment back. I know It is a long one, but what you brought up required such a long response, GOD bless you Chip.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 05 2007,00:49) Casiphus Nick is on Vacation He will not be able to reply til next week.
Peace Mrs.IM4Truth
Actually, I thought that he was going to be gone for six weeks.Tim
Chip,
I reread your post and I think what you want me to respond to is that they, Adam and Eve, died a Spiritual death when they ate. My first thought was that it is probably true, but then I remembered something from the Messianic Writings (the N.T.) that said, once a person has received the Spirit of truth and sins on purpose after that, there is no sacrifice for sin.That verse tells me that Adam and Eve were on a level other than what the N.T. is speaking of. I mean Adam and Eve did not know the Messiah before they sinned.
However, After they sinned there became a need for them to know of the Messiah. There became a need for Elohim to cloth them in animal skin. The plant coverings they had already clothed themselves in did not satisfy Elohim, just as Cain's sacrifice to YHWH was not suffisient because Cain offered fruit of the ground or plants, while Able offered a “blood” sacrifice which was sufficient in YHWH's eyes. They both had the opportunity to know what type of offering Elohim commanded, but only Able obeyed.
Remember this is what caused Cain to kill Able.
So Elohim showed Adam and Eve what the blood sacrifice meant, He covered their sin with blood, to teach them about the coming Messiah who would be the ultimate and final Sacrifice. They were no longer naked in their sin, but covered with the veil.
I hope you see this, it did not come from my imagination. Elohim showed this to me, a while back, but clarified it more so that I could share it with you.
All through the OT (Tenach), there were always a remnant who knew of the Messiah. I stand firm on the belief that no one then and no one now can enter the kingdom of Elohim without the belief in Messiah, and obedience to His Torah. I will add here so there is no confusion, if we sin by mistake after we recieve the Spirit, and repent, we ARE forgiven, BUT if we sin on purpose after we know the truth, there is no forgiveness of that sin, and we will suffer the consequences, however He see fit. His wrath may show up as a disease, or emotional separation from Him, or unruly children, or He may wait until judgement day and judge us to death if we deserve it.
Laurel;
It is true that the pattern in the new testament is to meet on Sunday that day Christ was resurrrected. This was a wonderful way for the believers to witness to the jews on the Sabbath and worship Christ together on Sunday.
See Romans 14:5
Laurel thank you for your response It is moving foward quickly. Sorry if It seems like I am leading you but everyone on this web site is so certain that we have not died a spiritual death in the garden. Even though it seems evident to me and I am told by some people they used to believe that way to and now do not so I throw it out there but just sticking with my post and not moving ahead to cain and able that scripture is clear enough. With your ability to check the original words for Lord God I guess that it what you mean by elohim. Regardless of what you call him he was walking in the cool of the day (hinting that he enjoyed it more so than the hot part of the day) he called out to adam and eve. he asked them questions. they were trying to hide from his presence which leads me to believe he was not everywhere or in a spiritual state in the garden. Again I am not trying to prove anything as much as I am trying to test things.
I just wanted to say that because I do not like debate unless it is healthy and bringing me closer to God.
So please do not take me as argumentative but just committed to what I believe. even that was cultured through the word and fellowship with other believers. I am only going to bring in the scripture that says that “adam was created in the pattern of the one to come.” Also that cain and able were not in adams image but seth was. why is there so much in these first few chapters of the bible seems like we could almost spend alot of prayer and reflecting time here. IF it seems like I am wanting you to say something that would be the half empty it is simply that I want to see what made you change your mind the half full. Now without bringing Yashua or Ywhw into this let me ask a point blank question for clarity to maybe avoid some of the circles we get stuck in. Is our biblical make up that of flesh,soul,and spirit or are we just flesh and spirit like the animals. Or is there some other way you see yourself and other believers to be created.hello steve, I am taking baby steps all I am saying is what is the composition of man what are we created as (Not to do or be but what are we.)
I believe from the scriptures that we are flesh soul and spirit that we have 3 parts and those 3 parts are what make us different from animals, from angels, and anything else God has made except for Christ.
do you believe that we have a tri une nature and that is what according to the scriptures makes us differnt from the animals and the rest of creation?
Animals do not have souls like we do. Ecclesiastes says something about the spirit of the beast goes back to God who made it. The animal ceases to exist.
Exactly, we are the only created thing with 3 parts flesh soul and spirit, even if we were not the bible still says that we have flesh soul and spirit. Now the bible also says in corinthians chap 2 “wisdom for the mature that the spirit of man has a similiar work within his nature as the Spirit which is from God works in relationship to the father. Unless there is some evidence that this section is also tampered with by the trinitarians.
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