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Quote (Cult Buster @ July 31 2007,00:42) Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,04:28) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:21) kejonn. Quote CB,
Just interested…are you a CHRISTian or a STEPHENian?Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
So do you follow what Stephen did or what Yeshua told us?
So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I don't know what Stephen did. I know how Yeshua told us to pray. Do you then pray as he showed or pray as Stephen did?Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Perhaps Stephen remembered these words because he knew he would have to go through Yeshua to come to the Father.
Kejonn. Your reply is full of “I don't know” and “Perhaps”
It is better if you stick with scripture.So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Hi CB,
Stephen knew he was going to be with Jesus.
Jn 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Chipwhite I am glad you have a sense of Humor, believe me it is needed on this website. Ha,Ha..Sorry I have not read your Post yet. Will do.
Peace Mrs.IM4TruthSomeone pointed me to this article: What is the Doctrine of the Trinity. I found one particular phrase interesting:
But if each person is fully God and has all of God's being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.
Very interesting…so do all “persons” of the Trinity have flesh and bones?
Luk 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Another weird line from the article above
What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because He regards the Son as a “You,” even though He regards Himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being.”
If this is true, what do Trinitarians do with the multitude of OT verses that use “I” when YHWH is speaking? Who is speaking — Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Where is the “you”? When did God speak to a “you” in any other reference to another person of the triune God in the OT?
Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,16:31) Someone pointed me to this article: What is the Doctrine of the Trinity. I found one particular phrase interesting: But if each person is fully God and has all of God's being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.
Very interesting…so do all “persons” of the Trinity have flesh and bones?
Luk 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
kejonnYes Jesus was also a man!
God was manifest in the flesh!
Jesus is both God and man.
No the Father or the Spirit didnt empty themselves and take on the likeness of sinfull flesh. Phil 2
However they are nevertheless One God!
Col 2:9,10
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;Kejonn, can you think of one attribute of the Father Jesus does not have?
Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,16:38) Another weird line from the article above What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because He regards the Son as a “You,” even though He regards Himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being.”
If this is true, what do Trinitarians do with the multitude of OT verses that use “I” when YHWH is speaking? Who is speaking — Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Where is the “you”? When did God speak to a “you” in any other reference to another person of the triune God in the OT?
kejonnLook again. When YHWH was speaking it was not always the Father, though they are One!
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
God acknowledges company.
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let *us* make man in *our* image, after *our* likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,19:30) God acknowledges company. Gen 1:26
And God said, Let *us* make man in *our* image, after *our* likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Is God talking to himself?
Is God talking to the one who he made the universe through?
Or what?God isn't talking to himself and referring to the other members because God is 'him' in scripture and not 'they'.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,02:21) Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,16:31) Someone pointed me to this article: What is the Doctrine of the Trinity. I found one particular phrase interesting: But if each person is fully God and has all of God's being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.
Very interesting…so do all “persons” of the Trinity have flesh and bones?
Luk 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
kejonnYes Jesus was also a man!
God was manifest in the flesh!
Jesus is both God and man.
No the Father or the Spirit didnt empty themselves and take on the likeness of sinfull flesh. Phil 2
However they are nevertheless One God!
Col 2:9,10
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;Kejonn, can you think of one attribute of the Father Jesus does not have?
No cigar WJ. The article says “no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others”. Since I quoted Yeshua in his post-resurrection state, and the Bible does not say he ever shed his post-resurrection body, he is still flesh and bone. So if that is the case, does the Father and Holy Spirit have flesh and bone? Remember “no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others”.Also, Yeshua is not omniscient like his Father (Mat 24:36).
The Holy Spirit speaks what he hears(John 16:13), while the Father speaks as he chooses.
The Father is the source of all power, the Son and Holy Spirit must turn to the Father for power.
The Father and Son have thrones and will share a throne. What, no throne for the Holy Spirit?
These are some…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,02:30) Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,16:38) Another weird line from the article above What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because He regards the Son as a “You,” even though He regards Himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being.”
If this is true, what do Trinitarians do with the multitude of OT verses that use “I” when YHWH is speaking? Who is speaking — Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Where is the “you”? When did God speak to a “you” in any other reference to another person of the triune God in the OT?
kejonnLook again. When YHWH was speaking it was not always the Father, though they are One!
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
God acknowledges company.
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let *us* make man in *our* image, after *our* likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
But show me where God ever spoke to the Holy Spirit. Show me in the OT where He spoke to any other of the Trinity beyond the creation story because “Us” in Genesis 1 can only be implied to be the Trinity. It could as easily be all of the heavenly host.What is the point indeed, you have gone around in circles for 810 pages. WJ will believe in the trinity and that's that. You can bring a Mule to the water, but you cant make him drink. God does not want us to go on and on like that.
Mrs.IM4TruthMr. steve and Mrs IM,
Its not so much about “converting” WJ, but defending one's beliefs. We all try to display truth as we feel God has shown us through the working of the Holy Spirit.My purpose is not to convince WJ. Only God can do that. I'm certain he feels confidant that he has the truth too. Else, why does he defend his view so strongly. I admire him for his stand. I just roll my eyes at some of his special pleading when it comes to interpretation
. But I'm certain he feels the same way about me in this 
.In any case, I believe WJ knows that Yeshua is not his Father and he knows he is not the source of all things. I believe he has the requisite knowledge for salvation just as I feel I do. We both try to glorify God. In the end, I think we'll both see each other in heaven one day and laugh over all the differences we had. And then we will all know the real truth as only God can show us fully when we stand before him with our robes washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.
Kejonn;
It is remarkable how much it makes you search the scriptures. I read every trinity site I find to try to understand how they can make the conclusions they do about the Godhead. It's normally the same scriptures that are not on point with the Godhead. Or, they make conclusions about ambiguous scriptures when other scriptures express otherwise. You're right though, the main thing is to do will of God and we'll probably have a great chuckle someday.
I was reading John 17 earlier today and noticed something I never saw before. Look at this verse:
Jhn 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
If the triune God is YHWH of the OT, would Yeshua not already have had these men to begin with, since he is supposed to be co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, before men were even created? Why does he then say that the men were the Father's and they were then given to him?
Just some food for thought.
Quote But show me where God ever spoke to the Holy Spirit. Show me in the OT where He spoke to any other of the Trinity beyond the creation story because “Us” in Genesis 1 can only be implied to be the Trinity. It could as easily be all of the heavenly host.
It could also be the one by whom God created all things through.Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 01 2007,06:35) What is the point indeed, you have gone around in circles for 810 pages. WJ will believe in the trinity and that's that. You can bring a Mule to the water, but you cant make him drink. God does not want us to go on and on like that.
Mrs.IM4Truth
Hi Im4truth.I agree that some people are not worth the time because they are time wasters and have no thought to change. Trying to convert some people is like chasing a white rabbit.
But for me, I reply to them only for the benefit of the readers.
Often readers come here and they are searching. When they see a question and a good reply, they might learn something.
To me WJ and others are useful for such a purpose and even God in his wisdom uses the devil in such a way, so can we use these guys to prove the truth?
For these guys sake it would certainly be better that we didn't continue talking with them because every scripture they are given and ignore, isn't good for their judgement. However as Christians we should also take note of what Paul is saying here:
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.WJ and others represent a popular argument or knowledge that is against the knowledge of God. So is it our duty to make it obedient to Christ, who is the truth?
Perhaps such a subject deserves its own discussion?
t8 You are right! Just sometimes I get so tired of all the arguments and Labeling.
kejonn When I read scriptures like John 17verses 5-7 and others like them shows me that the possibility that Christ existed before creation is real. When a Jehovah W. first brought this to my attention I thought He was crazy. But over time meditating on them and asking God for His Wisdom and guidance i have come to the conclusion that He did preexisted. Just because a J.W. said it, some want to go away from them as far as they can, but all Churches have some truths. Don't you agree?Over the last many days I have been focusing on what Jesus had to say himself regarding who he was and the relationship between him and the Father. Today I realized that the Father also identified who Jesus was in scripture. In every gospel the baptism of Jesus is recorded. When Christ was baptized he came up out of the water and the Father said, “Thou art my Son in whom I am well pleased”. The Father speaking in the New Testament tells us who Jesus is – The Son of God. The Father does not say “Thou art the Word made flesh”, or “Thou art God in the Flesh”, or “Thou art Yaweh”, “Thou art the second person of the trinity” “Thou art my eternal Son in the Godhead”, “Thou art eternally deity” “Thou art the same as I in substance, degree, and form” or otherwise. The Father says “my Son”, meaning, this could only be God the Father speaking because he said Jesus was his Son. Therefore, the Son of God. Jesus is the only person in the New Testament that the Father speaks to directly in the presence of witnesses. Also, on the Mount transfiguration, same story. Peter sites this occurrence in his second epistle. Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He is begotten not made because begotten requires personal involvement of the being of another in the begetting. Christ as a person therefore must of had a beginning because he was begotten of God by virtue of being God's Son. However, when Christ was begotten has not been revealed to us because Christ has been given something by the Father that no other can claim, “Thou art a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.” Paul says that means without beginning of days or end of life, it is eternal. Therefore, Christ has been given eternality by divine decree because he is the express image of the Father who has no beginning.
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