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I agree nick but again I did not write the scripture that said that. I do believe the Holy Spirit is the power of the will of God. You say finger I say according to first corinthians chap 2 it is like our spirit relates to us so does Gods Holy Spirit relate to Him (I again did not write this.) It is also our power to achieve the knowledge of the saving grace of God through Christ. Without the Spirit from God we cannot understand what the cross and the sacrifice accomplished by its completion. It still makes one wonder about the example of the tabernacle which is a shadow of the heavenly tabernacle. And I am fairly sure that the heavenly tabernacle is a spiritual one. (That is why the veil to the tabernacle leading to the holy of holies was torn from top to bottom. Pray and reflect on this for a while.) Outer courtyard anyone and everyone could enter here. Holy place only those who were the priests could enter here to make sacrifices for the sins to be offered up to God. And the Holy of Holies could only be entered once a year and that only by the high priest and then only after he had made atonement for his sins. ( I do not know this for sure but I have been told that when the high priest entered that tabernacle to perform this that they would tie a rope around his waist and bells upon his robes so that if he forgot a sacrifice or attonement they would know he died and be able to pull him out.) Our physical body is subject to anything and everything of this world due to its weakend sinful state Like the outer courtyard anything and everything of the world may enter into it. Our inner being is where the Holy Spirit talks with our spirit. But similair to the way the tabernacle had two inner areas the holy place and the most holy place so the word of God says that we have soul and spirit in our iternal workings. The importance of the high priest was so that the other priests serving the people were able to be cleansed and taught what the will of the Father was. They did not directly go into the Holy of Holies because that would not have been advisable to thier health and they excepted this. Only the high priest could go in to recieve instruction and also to make atonement for them and no one else. first corinth. chap 2 says that the Holy Spirit works and educates our spirit unto the spiritual truths of YWHW/GOD so our spirit is our high priest in a since receiving and transferring the truths learned to our inner being soul so that it can make our flesh obey even though it is not the nature of our flesh to do so. So the pattern I am trying to use is that in the proper alignment our spirit expresses it to our soul which in turn expresses it through our flesh in its actions. Romans says that obedience leads to righteousness and then righteousness leads to holiness ( little h for holiness signifying that it is established from the righteousness and obedience to Gods will. In the same way when we are not obedient then we lose our righteousness and that also takes away our holiness.) So we are obedient in our flesh proving our love for the word of God which brings about a righteousness from God that leads us to defy our natural nature and achieve the holiness referred to in Romans. Thus our spirit soul and body are all in the proper alignment under the direction of God. The apostles asked Jesus why do you speak to us in parables and what did he reply. It is because we are weak in our spiritual understanding. So the word had to become flesh because without the penalty for sin being paid we could never recieve the Spirit from God. I also believe that the word became flesh so that we would get it. Just like we were told spiritual things in parables during the ministry of Christ so we could get it, also we have a physical example of how to be led and restored back to the Father through the physical/spiritual example of Christ. That is why he is listed as our High Priest forever. he teaches our soul trapped in a perishable courupted state how to escape into the blood of atonement shed by Christ so that we are viewed as co hiers instead of objects of wrath.We are viewed as those that have paid the price we could not, as opposed to those who still have the price to pay. So we have the physical and historical examples in the old testament and new testament so that we may strengthen our spiritual understanding to restore the proper order of the flesh being submissive to the spirit instead of being like the animals and having our spirits submissive to our corrupted flesh. Our soul/freewill is our salvation or our condemnation depending on which is its makes our spirits mastor. The Holy Spirit of God or the fleshly desires for the spirits of this world or any other thing that is not from the Father. Please restict comments to these thoughts only. if there are some truths that need to be exposed to me here may God grant you the wisdom and knowledge of the word and open the eyes of my heart so that I may see them as clearly as I need to. Then we will build from here, I think that the things we are bringing up may get sidetracked by other things, if we do not focus and agree from here before we move on.
Hi CW,
It is our soul of heart and mind that is educated.
Our spirit just gives us life and awareness and returns to God at death.I admit that your spirit is reborn. (John chap 3) I also believe that it is our instructor as I have stated earlier. but I am not clear on how the spirit gives us life? Are we not alive before our spirit is reborn. Technically the life eternal that we will get is actually after death. Also, do you believe that spirit, then soul, and then flesh is the properly aligned order of a man? In the essence I mentioned earlier.If not please feel free to elaborate I do not completely understand from your response.
Hi cw,
Our spirit is not reborn.
WE are reborn OF the Spirit.
Then our spirit can agree with THE Spirit [Rom 8]
Our spirit leaves at death as it did with Jesus[Mt 27.50]
THE Spirit abides with us and will raise us at the return of Jesus.Hi cw,
The same as Peter spoke about in Acts 2
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
'
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus.Look again!
From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)
Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:
Jesus is Yahweh God. Worship Him
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Cult Buster (catchy name by the way) I have read some of your more recent posts and as my posts stated earlier I am a believer in some of the things you are. I am just trying to map it out from the most elementary things such as laying a foundation to see if there is any flaw in the construction of the foundation of Christ I am building on. You might have also said. “Today you will be with me in paradise.” or ” Your faith has made you whole.” or ” Your sins are forgiven go and sin no more.” etc.etc. there are many examples of Christs ultimate authority down here on earth. Most of the posts I see on this site so far do not dissagree with Christ's authority, but more importantly, the very origin of Christ and what He is. So I will test what I believe with an open heart so that if there is something within me that needs to be exposed then it will be so. We are in accord about the Triune nature of God and man I hope.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,06:26) Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus.Look again!
From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)
Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:
Jesus is Yahweh God. Worship Him
CB,
Just interested…are you a CHRISTian or a STEPHENian?Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
So do you follow what Stephen did or what Yeshua told us?
Mat 10:32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
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Luk 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.I think therein lies a big difference between Trinitarians and modalists and those who do not believe this way: we pay much more heed to what Yeshua said than what others said of him. If anyone would know the truth of Yeshua, it would be Yeshua himself.
1Cr 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”
1Cr 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?kejonn.
Quote CB,
Just interested…are you a CHRISTian or a STEPHENian?Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
So do you follow what Stephen did or what Yeshua told us?
So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
hello nick, this one is for you. When Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil what happened? God told him he would surely die. Adam lived centuries after that (hopefully this not in dispute as well or I have a long road ahead of me. he he he) When God found adam later in the garden why was Adam hiding. And God said “Who told you you were naked.” Adam was in such spiritual harmony and communion with God that he did not even recognize that he had no covering. When he sinned something died within him and I believe that was his spirit. It was not his flesh or soul/mind/conscience that died, those lived on for almost another melinium,it was his spirit that died and therefore severed his communion with the Spirit of the Father.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:21) kejonn. Quote CB,
Just interested…are you a CHRISTian or a STEPHENian?Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
So do you follow what Stephen did or what Yeshua told us?
So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I don't know what Stephen did. I know how Yeshua told us to pray. Do you then pray as he showed or pray as Stephen did?Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Perhaps Stephen remembered these words because he knew he would have to go through Yeshua to come to the Father.
Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,04:28) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:21) kejonn. Quote CB,
Just interested…are you a CHRISTian or a STEPHENian?Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
So do you follow what Stephen did or what Yeshua told us?
So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I don't know what Stephen did. I know how Yeshua told us to pray. Do you then pray as he showed or pray as Stephen did?Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Perhaps Stephen remembered these words because he knew he would have to go through Yeshua to come to the Father.
Kejonn. Your reply is full of “I don't know” and “Perhaps”
It is better if you stick with scripture.So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:42) So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Quote I don't know what Stephen did. I know how Yeshua told us to pray. Do you then pray as he showed or pray as Stephen did? Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Perhaps Stephen remembered these words because he knew he would have to go through Yeshua to come to the Father.
Kejonn. Your reply is full of “I don't know” and “Perhaps”
It is better if you stick with scripture.So tell us kejonn. Did Stephen commit idolatry? If you think that he did, then why was he full of the Holy Ghost when he knelt and prayed to Jesus?
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
CB,I see what Stephen did. However, was this a normal prayer? This was Stephen's dying words. He knew his life was at an end and he knew that he could not come unto the Father except through Yeshua, just as I revealed in the John quote. Here are some more interesting ones
Mat 10:32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
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Jhn 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
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Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
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Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
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Jhn 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.As you can see, in each point, Yeshua shows who is at the root of all: The Father. So showing that Stephen “prayed” to Yeshua is not in itself a strong proof for a triune God, not when you consider that Yeshua is our mediator. None of us can stand before the Father unless Yeshua acts on our behalf, and that included Stephen. So it is quite natural that Stephen would cry out to Yeshua to receive his spirit as it would be Yeshua who would intercede for Stephen on his behalf to cover his sins before God and allow him entry to the Kingdom.
Think of it in a lawyer-client type relationship. A lawyer typically speaks for his client in all things unless the client is called to the stand. We have a “lawyer” in Christ who speaks on our behalf to represent us before God. Just as the client places his life in the lawyer's hands, so we can commit our spirits to Yeshua to present us before God with clean robes, washed white as snow in the blood of the Lamb. Without Yeshua this is not possible.
So no, Stephen was not committing idolatry. He was just doing as Yeshua taught. He knew who his mediator was.
Quote (chipwhite @ July 31 2007,00:25) hello nick, this one is for you. When Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil what happened? God told him he would surely die. Adam lived centuries after that (hopefully this not in dispute as well or I have a long road ahead of me. he he he) When God found adam later in the garden why was Adam hiding. And God said “Who told you you were naked.” Adam was in such spiritual harmony and communion with God that he did not even recognize that he had no covering. When he sinned something died within him and I believe that was his spirit. It was not his flesh or soul/mind/conscience that died, those lived on for almost another melinium,it was his spirit that died and therefore severed his communion with the Spirit of the Father.
Hi CW,
It is a popular false theory that Adam's spirit died and the basis of many doctrines. It has no substantiation in scripture. A man with no spirit is a physically dead man[Jas]But a day in the eyes of the lord is 1000 years[2Peter and ps 90] and Adam died before 1000 years.
My opinion?
The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil gave him an educated conscience about sin, something he was not ready for, and scruples took over when he seemed to think nakedness was sin.
He had submitted to the god of this world. Satan, thus making Satan his father. His simple relationship with God ended and ignorance was no longer an excuse as far as sin went.I am 4 truth: if you ask me that a thousand times I will clearly say no matter what this chat room reveals, that the Father is greater than the begotten son. I do not now, nor will I ever think, there can be anyone or anything greater than the Father/God/Ywhw/The Theos or whatever title He is given here. He will always be supreme. ( Even in my Trinitarian belief He is supreme,all things are for and come from His Glory.)
Nick your answer is going to take alot longer and I must go but “I'll be back” so God bless all. Food for thought: “Is it possible to believe in the trinity without Exalting the Holy Spirit or Christ above the Father who has no begining or end.”chipwhite If you believe that the Father is greater then the Son, you don't believe in the trinity doctrine. I was born into the Catholic Church and taught the trinity Doctrine to our 4 children for 25 years. Trinity is 3 persons in 1 equal in power. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. If that would not be the case, the Holy Spirit would be the Father of Jesus. I don't use Labels either I simple say Jesus or Father, even though I know their names, and I am not trying to upset you , please understand that. You seem irritated by my question, it is not my intention to do so and if I did I apologize.
Maybe I should rethink what I consider to be the Trinity doctrine. I believe just as we are three parts so God is 3 parts. That each of our parts has a specific function in the whole spirit,soul,body relationship. Just as the three parts of God have different functions in there relationship.( Let me stress I get this from scripture only.) So maybe I am a pour trinitarian as well. I prefer the word Tri une nature to Trinity anyway. If I sounded irritable I am so sorry but I did not want their to be any doubt how I felt about God so maybe I stated it a bit strong. That is why in my posts I am starting with the tabernacle/human/God examples and working from there because through many hours of prayer and bible study this is what I believe. So maybe if it is flawed by throwing it out there maybe there is something my fellow belivers may impart to me in this venue to bring me closer to God.There is so much I want to say at one time but we are gonna have to go through this post after post after post so please do not become frustrated with me I am not totally slow after 4 or 5 times I will get it. ha ha.
Since Christ came in the flesh and is now our Savior and High Priest, you may pray to Christ. If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. We go through our advocate. This is essentially what we are doing as Christians when we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name…
Steven
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