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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,05:11) to all how like to read……….. there are some very good books out there that will definitly strengthen your faith. one of my favorets is,:When Jesus God, by, Richard E. Rubenstiein.
another is ,: Misquoting Jesus, By, Bart D. Ehrman
you will see how much the scriptures have been
mistranslated by trinitarian Idology's.and one of my favorit books is , Out of the Flames , by, Lawerence & Nancy Goldstone. a word for word acount of the trial and execution of the spainard Michael Servetus.
by the so called great reformer John Calvin, who orchastrated the murder of Servetus because he wrote a paper on the error's of the trinity.peace to all………….gene
Hi Gene,I also love to read. I have a few favorites if anyone is interested:
1. LETTERS ADDRESSED TO RELATIVES AND FRIENDS IN REPLY TO ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY by Mary S.B. Dana (Victorian Unitarian)
2. CHURCH HISTORY – Twenty Centuries of Catholic Christianity *AND* THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH *AND* SON OF MAN & SON OF GOD by John C. Dwyer (Catholic Professor)
3. ONE GOD & ONE LORD by Graeser, Lynn and Schoenheit (Biblical Unitarian)
4. THE TRINITY – Evidence and Issues by Morey (Trinitarian)
5. WRESTED SCRIPTURES by Abel (Christadelphian)
6. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY – Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound By Buzzard & Hunting (Church of God Abrahamic Faith)
I'm also a huge fan of Swindol, McDowell and C.S. Lewis.
Gene and Not3in1 There is a very good article about the trinity that Heaven Net puts out, but it is on Google Web. “I typed in “on trinity doctrine” then several topic's come up. All written by Heaven Net. I thought that is interesting.
thank you for giving all those Books to read. Are they in the Public Library or do you have to buy them in a Bible Bookstore? Thank you
Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,08:26) One point about the Pharisees and Saducees, they did something that others on here are doing. But I guess they could be right at least one time, hmm? John 10:33 – The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Seems we still have some Pharisees and Saducees running around today, eh?
KTrue. Trinitarians are being stoned for calling Jesus God!
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 15 2007,07:13) Gene and Not3in1 There is a very good article about the trinity that Heaven Net puts out, but it is on Google Web. “I typed in “on trinity doctrine” then several topic's come up. All written by Heaven Net. I thought that is interesting.
thank you for giving all those Books to read. Are they in the Public Library or do you have to buy them in a Bible Bookstore? Thank you
Mrs.IM4Truth
You will never find anything of the opposite view of orthodoxy in your Bible Bookstores. Orthodox publishing houses will not even publish anything that is not traditional (read: Trinitarian) doctrine; unless of course, it's in the “Cult” section. You have to search the web and other sources. Here are a couple to get you started:
http://www.truthortradition.com
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com
http://www.answering-christianity.comThese folks have a great library to choose from. Most are written by them – but they also offer books by “Others” in their store. I have found many books there that have led me to other sites and further writings……
By the way, I found THIS SITE through a lead on one of the websites above. I have a list of websites somewhere that I have used – I can hunt for them if you wish?
The articles written by HeavenNet are written by the websites founder, “t8”, If I'm not mistaken? And yes, I agree that they are all very good.
You definitely have to search truth out. What is handed to you easily and readily may not be the only story…. For example, if a Christian only reads what is available in the local Christian Bookstores, they have done themselves and their religion a great dis-service, imo.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2007,07:25) Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,08:26) One point about the Pharisees and Saducees, they did something that others on here are doing. But I guess they could be right at least one time, hmm? John 10:33 – The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Seems we still have some Pharisees and Saducees running around today, eh?
KTrue. Trinitarians are being stoned for calling Jesus God!
Jesus was a Jewish man. As a Jewish man, he believed in one God WHO is the Father.John 20:17
“Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not ascended unto the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, “I am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.'”
Jesus has a God.
He did not claim to be that God that he has! That would be nonesense. The scriptures do not teach this doctrine. However it can be deduced and deducted by those with this set presupposition.
Kejonn I respect you and will not write this in Your #3 Challenge, so I will answer your Question here to tell you what the trinity teaches. I am well qualified to do so, since we were in the Cath. Church from Birth in 1938 til 1984. I taught 4 children that doctrine.
the trinity is 3 persons in 1
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
All are co-equal in Power.
the trinity doctrine is also sometimes called “Hypostasies” it still means 3Gods in 1God and they call it a Mystery.
Nowhere in your Bible can you find the Word trinity.
Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2007,05:07) Is the President of the United States greater than you? Well I guess you are not human then!
Sorry to but in, but this is an open forum so all is fair game
.No, the President is not greater than any other man. He is just a man, he was born with no more privileges than any other man. He just happen to have more political power than the average person.
Quote Because Jesus is the Monogenes “Unique” Son Of God does not mean he is not God no more than you being being your Fathers Son means you are not human! Whys is that so hard to understand?
Lets see, Mom is human, Dad is human. Yep, I'm a human.Now, mom is human, Dad is God. Whoops, got some other stuff in the mix there. Not just Son of God, but also Son of Man. Don't forget that pesky other title.
Check out Gen 6:4. Human women for mothers, sons of God (likely fallen angels) for fathers. Did not result in in little fallen angels but something called Nephilim. From http://www.answers.com/Nephilim
Nephilim (nēfĭl'ĭm) , in the Bible, Hebrew word of no known meaning, denoting peoples of gigantic stature with superhuman strength. The term is translated as “giants” in the Authorized Version. The Book of Genesis refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between “daughters of humans” and “sons of God.” See also Anak.
Goliath was said to be of the Nephilim or another close race, Anak.
Show the union of a god and another god, and you'll have a god. But when parents are different like Yeshua's parents were, you get someone not merely what one of the parents was.
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,07:51) Show the union of a god and another god, and you'll have a god. But when parents are different like Yeshua's parents were, you get someone not merely what one of the parents was.
Amen.Quote (Not3in1 @ July 15 2007,07:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2007,07:25) Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,08:26) One point about the Pharisees and Saducees, they did something that others on here are doing. But I guess they could be right at least one time, hmm? John 10:33 – The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Seems we still have some Pharisees and Saducees running around today, eh?
KTrue. Trinitarians are being stoned for calling Jesus God!
Jesus was a Jewish man. As a Jewish man, he believed in one God WHO is the Father.John 20:17
“Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not ascended unto the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, “I am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.'”
Jesus has a God.
He did not claim to be that God that he has! That would be nonesense. The scriptures do not teach this doctrine. However it can be deduced and deducted by those with this set presupposition.
not3Of course he is not the Father he has.
No more than you are your husband! but you are still equally human!
Fallacys in an attempt to discredit the very nature of who Jesus is!
Hi W,
You say Christ is part of a trinity God and so is the Father so they are one God.
That makes Jesus his own father and
That denies
both the Father and the Son.Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,07:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2007,05:07) Is the President of the United States greater than you? Well I guess you are not human then!
Sorry to but in, but this is an open forum so all is fair game.No, the President is not greater than any other man. He is just a man, he was born with no more privileges than any other man. He just happen to have more political power than the average person.
Quote Because Jesus is the Monogenes “Unique” Son Of God does not mean he is not God no more than you being being your Fathers Son means you are not human! Whys is that so hard to understand?
Lets see, Mom is human, Dad is human. Yep, I'm a human.Now, mom is human, Dad is God. Whoops, got some other stuff in the mix there. Not just Son of God, but also Son of Man. Don't forget that pesky other title.
Check out Gen 6:4. Human women for mothers, sons of God (likely fallen angels) for fathers. Did not result in in little fallen angels but something called Nephilim. From http://www.answers.com/Nephilim
Nephilim (nēfĭl'ĭm) , in the Bible, Hebrew word of no known meaning, denoting peoples of gigantic stature with superhuman strength. The term is translated as “giants” in the Authorized Version. The Book of Genesis refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between “daughters of humans” and “sons of God.” See also Anak.
Goliath was said to be of the Nephilim or another close race, Anak.
Show the union of a god and another god, and you'll have a god. But when parents are different like Yeshua's parents were, you get someone not merely what one of the parents was.
KejonnYou say…
Quote
No, the President is not greater than any other man. He is just a man, he was born with no more privileges than any other man. He just happen to have more political power than the average person.Look around you are making my point!
Jesus is God in the flesh. John 1:1 1:14. Phil 2
Because he has submitted to the Father does not diminish his nature, does it?
You say…
Quote
Lets see, Mom is human, Dad is human. Yep, I'm a human.Now, mom is human, Dad is God. Whoops, got some other stuff in the mix there. Not just Son of God, but also Son of Man. Don't forget that pesky other title.
Yes Jesus is both God and man!
John 1:1 1:14 Phil 2. Heb 1:8.
Zech 14, (Zech 12:10 and John 19:37) and (John 12:37-41 and Isa 6:1-5) and Isa 9:6,7. etc, etc.You say…
Quote
Check out Gen 6:4. Human women for mothers, sons of God (likely fallen angels) for fathers. Did not result in in little fallen angels but something called Nephilim. From http://www.answers.com/NephilimNephilim (nēfĭl'ĭm) , in the Bible, Hebrew word of no known meaning, denoting peoples of gigantic stature with superhuman strength. The term is translated as “giants” in the Authorized Version. The Book of Genesis refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between “daughters of humans” and “sons of God.” See also Anak.
Goliath was said to be of the Nephilim or another close race, Anak.
Show the union of a god and another god, and you'll have a god. But when parents are different like Yeshua's parents were, you get someone not merely what one of the parents was.
Exactly. You get “God and Man”. You get the “Monogenes” 'Unique' Son of God.
Son of God. Son of man.
Not merely God! Not merely man! But both God and Man!
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.You should stick with scriptures my friend, they are more trust worthy than the ideas of the carnal mind!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,08:30) Hi W,
You say Christ is part of a trinity God and so is the Father so they are one God.
That makes Jesus his own father and
That denies
both the Father and the Son.
NHAgain, fallacies in an attempt to deny the scriptures and make the Lord our God into a mere man!
Hi WJ,
I do not follow the trinity doctrine. It is because I learned that the Set-Apart Spirit is not a personage. The Spirit is the power of YHWH. It is His hand, His will.
If you try to see that, you will never ever find a contradiction in Scripture where He speaks of the Father, the Son, or the Spirit.
The Set-apart Spirit is how we communicate with our Father in heaven. See you know we communicate through the Son, then you can say, the Son is the Spirit, of the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. Also the Word we read from Scripture is also the Spirit of YHWH. Y'shua Messiah is the Word.Look at it this way and “see” for yourself. You can't lose, you will be prooving Scripture as we were commanded.
You can say then from this enlightened view, that the Spirit is a Comforter, the Spirit is Truth.
Quote (t8 @ July 14 2007,22:13) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,11:55) Quote it's we because it's the same spirit of the Father
Gene,
Why then did Yeshua use plural pronouns in this verse?:John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Why?
Why?
Why?
Because because because:John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
This doesn't account for the fact that two distinct personages are said to indwell multiple believers (John 14:23), and yet scripture explicitly specifies that only One Spirit and One God (Eph 4:6) indwells us…..Is1:18,
I went to Sun-day church this past Feast of Weeks, because it always falls on the first day of the week.
This was a church I belonged to as a child untill I got married. The pastor there said we believe in the trinity. He said he did not understand the trinity.You nor he nor anyone who believes the trinity doctrine will never understand it, because like the Messiah in Christmas, does not exist.
So you can keep trying to force it, but it will never be born, except in the form of the anti-messiah.
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 15 2007,03:14) It is said, that HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, finds its best expression in his late work “Adversus Praxean”. And it is in this doctrine and in Christology, that he made his greatest contribution to THEOLOGY. STOP! Back up a bit; let's read that again:
HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY?” Well now I'm not surprised anymore, that I can't find it in the Bible.
Why wouldn't Tertullian invent a triune God; all the other religion had more than one, it made Christianity more popular.
Tertullian died after 220A.D.
Paul calls the Gospel that was entrusted to him – “my Gospel” (2 Timothy 2:8). That does not mean he invented it…..It's not proof.
Where is the evidence that Tertullian was the very first person to concieve the doctrine? And even if there was such evidence, you'll still need to show that the Holy Spirit unequivocally did not reveal it to him, for it to be a legitimate “man made” doctrine.Blessings
Quote (Laurel @ July 15 2007,09:21) Is1:18,
I went to Sun-day church this past Feast of Weeks, because it always falls on the first day of the week.
This was a church I belonged to as a child untill I got married. The pastor there said we believe in the trinity. He said he did not understand the trinity.You nor he nor anyone who believes the trinity doctrine will never understand it, because like the Messiah in Christmas, does not exist.
So you can keep trying to force it, but it will never be born, except in the form of the anti-messiah.
Alright Laurel,
Set me straight. Tell me the exact truth about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we'll see if it withstands the scrutiny of a scriptural examination…..Hi Is 1.18,
Were these men inspired to bring new teachings after the apostles?
The proof is whether or not they referenced the teachings of Jesus as the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but reminds us of the words of Christ.
So as they brought new teachings the answer is no.
They were guided by some other spirit.Is 1:18
First, Scripture teaches that the Father always esteemed the Son. Nothing was made that wasn't made without Him (Messiah).
YHWH made everything about creation for His Son.
Second, the Son always esteemed the Father. “Not My will, but yours.”We can now see the Spirit working in them, makes them a team, two witnesses that no evil will ever overcome.
When we believe that the Messiah is the Son of Elohim, (Father by the power of the Spirit), and do the commands of YHWH, that Y'shua Himself did. We will be called into the unity of the Father and the Son, by the power and through the power of the Set-Apart Spirit.
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