The Trinity Doctrine

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 13 2007,20:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 13 2007,20:05) Why implicitly?  Why not explicitly?  The holy Spirit is God; yes. Because the words “Holy Spirit” are not explicitly mentioned in the verse…. Do you agree that this syllogism is logical and fair? 1. Since “The Holy Spirit is God” (your words) 2. And there is only One God, YHWH, Who identifies Himself as “I am” 3. Then the Holy Spirit is “I Am”

The holy spirit is WHO God is. God has a proper name; his “spirit” necessarily does not have a proper name.

So, no, I would not agree that the Holy Spirit is “I AM” in the sense that you are referring.

My spirit does not share my personal name. The reason it does not share my personal name is because my spirit is not a person —– it is who I am.

If I were to refer to my spirit by my personal name AND I was referred to by my personal name – how would I know “who” you were referring to when you said, “Mandy.”

Would you be talking to ME, or would you be talking to my spirit?

OK, brain is mush now, must hit the hay!

Goodnight

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,17:11)

K Hello. Is there a modalist here?

Label me as you wish. You've already accepted that you were a Trinitarian. But before you start labeling, you might think about actually figuring out what your labels actually mean. From Wikipedia

In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God (for us only), rather than three distinct persons (in Himself).

I say no such thing. Yeshua is Son of God, Son of Man. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit — which I'm still trying to figure out — is an extension of God and indwells both Yeshua and those who are saved by Grace. It is the bonding force that make us one and it is the reason this is said by Yeshua

John 17:23 – I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,19:00)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2007,11:26) Quote (Mr. Steve @ July 13 2007,11:09) Why did Christ command that we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost is not a distinct person? Hi Mr S, Did the disciples do so? Why not? There are threads on this verse as Eusebius claimed it was not written originally in this form but “…in my name” NH Do you follow Eusebius or the scriptures?

Hi W,
Did the apostles in Acts obey Mt 28.19?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 13 2007,19:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2007,09:14) Hi , Here is the trinity circular use of LOGIC in all it's glory “1. In John 20:28 Thomas declared Yeshua to be his Lord and God. 2. A Jewish monotheist has only ONE personal God, namely YHWH. 3. It's therefore implausible to think that Thomas had acquired another God. 4. So Yeshua must be true God.”   So simplistic. So false. It's easy to throw around ad hominems in order to avoid the argument. Which point is incorrect, and why?

Hi Is.1.18
It is because it is weakly held together only by LOGIC
not by revealed truth.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,17:15)

K Oh yes, of course the Holy Spirit prays to himself! Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Since the Holy Spirit indwells us intimately, the needs and desires of our heart are passed on to the Father through the Son. So even though we may not know how to pray for some things, God can still answer the prayers of our heart.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,18:34)

Kejonn So love comes from an it? Phil 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, The Greek for communion means “communion”. So do you have communion with an it?

Snore. You can't seem to see the words in front of you. The Holy Spirit, IMO, is what allows us to have close communion with our fellow siblings in Christ, Yeshua, and God. Its the power that binds us.

Indeed you can have fellowship with all parties via the Holy Spirit that binds us.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 13 2007,19:18)

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 13 2007,11:31) Nick You are right, We cannot be Brothers of Jesus, if one believes in the trinity. Just one more prove that the trinity doctrine is false. Prove all things Mrs.IM4TRuth Mrs.IM4Truth, I have a question for you….. Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you? You might want to think carefully before you answer.

I must say I dislike anyone, no matter what side of the Trinity belief you fall on, saying the other does not have salvation. Many people merely accept the Trinity but never have looked into it. That was me for years. Did I believe I was lost until I questioned it? NO! I've always known the proper perspective of the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as far as their roles in my life.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 13 2007,19:58)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 13 2007,19:54) Ah – great scripture in John, thank you! I just wondered why the Holy Spirit didn't claim the name like some think Jesus did? If God claimed the name, and Jesus claimed the name, why not the Holy Spirit too? YHWH never once claimed in scripture to have created the planet Saturn. And yet this is not evidence that He did not.

Sorry to butt in, but Yeshua never said he wasn't Buddhist either. He never said he wasn't Hitler. He never said he leaped tall buildings in a single bound. He never said he jumped through hoops of fire and danced the tango. So automatically, one can assume he did such things.

I hate to make this comparison, but you debate much like someone I know on another board. This person is an atheist BTW.

Why not work with what we do have and not what you want to assume because it fits you theology. “Hmmmm sounds about right to me. Let it be so”.

[kejonn]

WJ,

My apologies about the modalist post. I realize what you were getting at. You were saying that my way of representing Trinity thinking was actually more akin to modalist thinking. You are correct and it was a poor error on my part. I'm sorry, I had been answering too many of Cult Busters threads and I have the wrong mindset of what other Trinitarians thought.

Again, sorry.

[kejonn]

I must say, of all the claims of Yeshua being God, the absolute weakest is “I am”. Put John 8:58 in front of Christians and ask them what this means. 99% would say, “Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham”. Indeed.

But not diehard Trinitarians. To them, this is PROOF! Its more like poof.

Let's look at what YHWH said:

Exodus 3:3-4 – Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”

Moses wants God's name to give to the sons of Israel, so they may know who sent him. God basically tells him that “I AM” is sufficient for them. Now lets look at the weak comparison that some people make out to be something it isn't

John 8:56-58 – Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. “So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

The Jews say he is not old enough to make the claim that Abraham knew him. He answer that he existed before Abraham. Or — and hold on to your seat on this one –Abraham actually believed one of God's promises

Genesis 22:15-18 – Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Who came to save the nations? Whose death gave salvation to all, both Jew and Gentile. Drumroll….Yeshua, descendant of father Abraham (Matthew 1:1).

“Before Abraham was born, I am.” Yes, God had a plan for the savior of the world to come from the seed of Abraham, and the plan has existed since — or even before — the fall of Man.

The Jews did not ask for Yeshua's name, they asked how he could claim that Abraham knew him. Abraham knew him in that he believed the promises of God.

I just want to close with one verse from earlier in the Genesis account:

Genesis 22:8 – Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

[Laurel]

WJ,
Maybe this will help: The Set-apart Spirit is the Spirit of truth. The truth will set you free.
After we receive the gospel of salvation(the one made to Israel). we are sealed with the Set-apart Spirit of promise. (the promise made to Israel).
So if the Spirit was a being like you claim, then the person of the Spirit would be lying over our foehead as a seal. This does not make sence.
Whereas the Set-apert Spirit that comes forth from the Father through the gospel that was proclaimed by the Messiah Himself is in us and we recieve the power of the Set-apart Spirit of the Father, as His Word, His law is “remembered” and sealed in our minds.
It is the “mark” that keeps of from receiving the mark of the beast. Those who have the mark of the beast buy and sell. Those who honor His Sabbath law as well as all His laws, do not buy and sell, according to His law, on the Sabbaths. All the Sabbaths.
Can you feel the Spirit at work yet?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Not3

You say…

Quote

The holy spirit is WHO God is.

I thought you had before agreed with t8 that the Father is who God is and the Holy Spirit is what God is?

[Mr. Steve]

Laurel; You should read Romans 14 and Colossians. Let no man judge you with respect to meat or drink, holy days, or sabbaths, which are shadow of things to come. These are conscience areas and not to be asserted as sound doctrine.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2007,03:59)

Not3 You say… Quote The holy spirit is WHO God is. I thought you had before agreed with t8 that the Father is who God is and the Holy Spirit is what God is?

Hi WJ,

I'm not sure if I see the difference in what you are comparing? I said that the holy Spirit is WHO God is. In other words, my spirit is WHO I am.

We are only left to distinguish between the WHO and the WHAT when we are speaking of Jesus. It is still undetermined WHAT Jesus is – is he fully human? Is he fully God? Is he half and half? And recently……is he Superman?

“Spirit” is both the WHO and WHAT God is.

Isaiah and I were talking about attributing proper names to the Spirit of God (i.e.; “I AM”), and I disagreed that the proper name given to God should be also given to the 3rd “person” of the triune God. Mainly, because I do not believe that the “Spirit” of God is a seperate “person” from God. Neither can my spirit be seperate from me!!

1 Cor. 2: 10, 11 (emphasis mine)

“….but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?

IN THE SAME WAY no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

Ephesians 1:13, 14 (NIV)

“……Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, WHO is a depostit gauranteeing our inheritance…….

**Same verse in the ASV reads: “…the promised Holy Spirt WHICH is a deposit…..”** “Who” denotes a person, while “which” does not. Interesting.

Ephesians 4:30

“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with WHOM you were sealed…..”

**Same verse in the ASV reads: “….WHICH you were sealed…” Again, one version implicates a seperate person and one implicates a personal spirit of God in action.

The Holy Spirit [of] God is God!! Not another “person.”

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ July 14 2007,02:20)

WJ, Maybe this will  help: The Set-apart Spirit is the Spirit of truth. The truth will set you free. After we receive the gospel of salvation(the one made to Israel). we are sealed with the Set-apart Spirit of promise. (the promise made to Israel). So if the Spirit was a being like you claim, then the person of the Spirit would be lying over our foehead as a seal. This does not make sence. Whereas the Set-apert Spirit that comes forth from the Father through the gospel that was proclaimed by the Messiah Himself is in us and we recieve the power of the Set-apart Spirit of the Father, as His Word, His law is “remembered” and sealed in our minds. It is the “mark” that keeps of from receiving the mark of the beast. Those who have the mark of the beast buy and sell. Those who honor His Sabbath law as well as all His laws, do not buy and sell, according to His law, on the Sabbaths. All the Sabbaths. Can you feel the Spirit at work yet?

Hi Laurel,

If you stick with Biblical language, teachings become easier to understand.

I am not used to hearing such terminology such as: “Set-apart Spirit” and so on. This sounds foreign to my ears. When things sound foreign to me, I tend to question the teaching.

If the “Set-apart Spirit” that you teach is in fact, the “Spirit of Truth” spoken of in the Bible —– why not just say the “Spirit of Truth”?

It is my personal opinion that we have too many “Jesus'” and too many “spirits” floating around on this board. It will only get more confusing when you stray from Biblical language and begin to use terminology that comes from your own creation.

If there is a “Set-apart Spirit” spoken of in the Bible, please lead me to those passages of scripture for review, and I thank you.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Laurel @ July 14 2007,02:20)

WJ, Maybe this will  help: The Set-apart Spirit is the Spirit of truth. The truth will set you free. After we receive the gospel of salvation(the one made to Israel). we are sealed with the Set-apart Spirit of promise. (the promise made to Israel). So if the Spirit was a being like you claim, then the person of the Spirit would be lying over our foehead as a seal. This does not make sence. Whereas the Set-apert Spirit that comes forth from the Father through the gospel that was proclaimed by the Messiah Himself is in us and we recieve the power of the Set-apart Spirit of the Father, as His Word, His law is “remembered” and sealed in our minds. It is the “mark” that keeps of from receiving the mark of the beast. Those who have the mark of the beast buy and sell. Those who honor His Sabbath law as well as all His laws, do not buy and sell, according to His law, on the Sabbaths. All the Sabbaths. Can you feel the Spirit at work yet?

Hi L,
Hearing the gospel does not ensure that seed takes root. It must be given room in good soil and must be obeyed and submitted to to have effect. We have to play our part in response to the command of God to be born again. It is not magic but requires a response of faith. God is only once shown to have given the Spirit only on the hearing of the gospel and that was Acts 10. If we do not allow truth to change us the seeds of the gospel are stolen or only flourish for a time. The Spirit is a promise that follows obedience.

Acts 2
” 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.”

There are other spirits were were warned about.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2007,07:39)

Hi L, Hearing the gospel does not ensure that seed takes root. It must be given room in good soil and must be obeyed and submitted to to have effect. We have to play our part in response to the command of God to be born again. It is not magic but requires a response of faith. God is only once shown to have given the Spirit only on the hearing of the gospel and that was Acts 10. If we do not allow truth to change us the seeds of the gospel are stolen or only flourish for a time. The Spirit is a promise that follows obedience.

Amen.

Also see Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Having believed, we were also marked with God's holy Spirit.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Laurel @ July 13 2007,04:07)

WJ The Spirit is not a person, it is the power of the Father, period.

And your saying “period” makes it so?

[kejonn]

So, what exactly does Yeshua mean when he says “I am”? Let's do a little study overview

Matt 16:15-17 – He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matt 14:61-62 –  But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Luke 22:70 – And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”

John 6:48 – “I am the bread of life.”

John 8:12 – Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

John 10:7-9 – So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 11:25-27 – Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

John 13:13 – “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.”

John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 15:1 –  “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”

John 18:5 – They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.

Now you know the “I am” of Yeshua, the predestined saviour of the world, the one who eventually took Isaac's place because of the faith of Abraham.

Son of God. The Christ. The bread of life. The Light of the World. The door of the sheep. The resurrection and the life. Teacher and Lord. The way, and the truth, and the life. The true vine.

Jesus, the Nazarene.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Laurel @ July 13 2007,04:11)

Scripture is black and white. There is no grey area except for the discription os Satan who is the master of deception. If you do not see a crystal clear picture when you read Scripture, you are on the other side of grace.

L

And what is clear to you may not be clear to me.

The Pharasees and Saducees thought they “clearly” understoood the scriptures and missed who the messiah was, they also persecuted him, resisted his words, and eventually put him to death!

Like the Apostle Paul, they thought they were seeing clearly and doing the right thing!

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