The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Mitsubishi or Toyota?

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,12:24)

K Because an “it” can't think, speak, guide, hear, comfort, strengthen, pray, be blasphemed, grieved, lead, glorify, testify etc, etc, etc.

“It” can if “it” is a direct extension of God. Where do we get the idea that the Holy Spirit is ever disconnected from God? All it is able to do derives from its source, YHWH.

Quote

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (autos) not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Again, no reason that “he” cannot be replaced with “it”, The source of all of the things that the Holy Spirit does is YHWH. It is Him that provides, but the Holy Spirit is the channel, the conduit for receiving.

Quote

Greek for Him 'autos' which means; 1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it The same greek word (autos) is used for the Father and the Son and men etc. I suppose the Father and the Son is not a him or a he but an it?

Only if the translators had a reason for using “it”. But nah, God and Yeshua are “people” so “he” works rather nicely.

Quote

Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself*; but whatsoever he shall hear, *that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come. 14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, *and shall shew it unto you*. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Spirit) *shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.

You know what this sounds like (not to make light)? An ancient way to describe television. A television takes a signal from a source and reveals what the source intends for the viewer to see and hear. Now I know that the Holy Spirit is not that, but minus any discernible personality of its own, I'm still not seeing any reason to see why the Holy Spirit is a “he” versus an “it”.

Does the Holy Spirit speak, or is it God speaking in us through the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit do the comforting, or is it God comforting through it? Since you cannot see where the Holy Spirit EVER acts on its own, it is but a vessel for God to communicate with us.

In fact, by saying that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, God is saying that blasphemy against Him is unforgivable. How can you blaspheme the Holy Spirit without blaspheming God Himself?

[Laurel]

Hi WJ,
No I am not JW. In fact I can claim no religion. I follow the Bible all of it. I don't believe there can be a complete understanding of the old covenant without the new and vice-versa. The way I see it, Paul told us to Keep the Feasts, not with the old leaven (of the Pharisees like Y'shua taught), but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I follow the commands that YHWH wrote with His own finger, because they were placed in the most set-apart place on earth, which is a shadow picture of the Judgement seat of the Messiah.

I am a sinfull being, especially when I think. I need Y'shua Messiah to show me the way to the Father. I can not do it alone. Through the Set-apart Spirit, I learn as I go why, how, and when.

I honor the 7th day Sabbath of my Lord and my Elohim. I also celebrate the Feasts under the new covenant, as Paul, says.

JW's go to church on Sun-god day. They therefore do not even try to keep the commands. I think they are under that greasy-grace, sloppy agape doctrine of the Pharisees, and the great harlot mother of all the little whore churches that go after pagen god's, like Estarte' with the eggs dyed in the blood of infants, and the play boy, I mean Estarte' bunnies humping all around doing the let do because it feels like love to me dance.

[kejonn]

Follow-up to last post: don't think I'm literally comparing the Holy Spirit to such an inanimate object as TV. But I believe that the Holy Spirit is our means to receive power, love, and so many other things from the Father through the Son.

[Laurel]

Sorry, but you who do follow the Word of God and make up new doctrines and new holydays, and new imagined idols, are just like the way Israel was when they were doing the same things, only long ago.

You all keep saying your not Israel, but you act just like them. Look what happened , they were scattered all across the world. The things they learned from Egypt, Rome which was Mesotopia, or Greece, they were scattered to Germany, USA, Austrailia, China, etc.

YHWH told Abraham his seed would be as the sands of the sea, upon every nation.

Can't you people see, that we do the same things as they did, with abortion, gay marraiges, indiscriminate sexual relations, etc. Our thought are evil, continually, and it shows in our teens who are murders, and the poor and homeless.

We all need to quit being better, that everybody esle because all we are doing is driving a wedge. As that wedge goes deeper, love suffocates. We forget we are all from Adam. Y'shua is the Son of Adam, that is the Hebrew Word for man.

Everysingle one of us came here the same way, why can't we all leave the same way. There is only one way and that way does not contradict scripture.

Hope I didn't make too many mistakes in my spelling. I did not proofread. this.

You wanna know what love is? Study your master's life and learn from a master. Follow the living Elohim, the Word, the Flesh, the Set-apart Spirit, the Father, the Son, the bride, the promise and how to keep a promise.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,13:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,11:47) NH Here is the logic of a henotheist! Hmmm, is a henotheist inferior to a polytheist? Aren't they both saying there is more than one God? Cuz slice and dice it any way you want, 3-gods-in-one is still 3 gods. Quote God made a second image of himself and then created all things through the second image of himself. Nah, doesn't say God made Yeshua, pre-earth or otherwise. But it is interesting that God made man in His image and placed him over all of the earth. Quote Not only that but he commands the angels to worship this second Image of himself and then we find all of creation worshipping this second image of himself in Rev 5. Why not, a papa wants the best for his son. Where do think we inherited the strong desire to place our children before ourselves so often? Quote Then God tells all men to come to this second image and bow down to him and accept him as their Lord and Master! Hey, all things were created for him [Yeshua] (Col 1:16). Including Man. Not my fault God planned it that way. Quote God gives him the power to forgive sins, in fact God turns all of his power and authority over to this second image of himself! Inheritance will do that for ya. Do you understand the concept of Fatherly love? A true father wants the best for his children, and wants them to be just like him. Where do you think we get that instinct from? Selfish fathers want to control and want everything for themselves. But note that the feeling goes both ways. Yeshua often emphasized that he did his Father's will. He said true worshipers would worship the Father. Yeshua shared the glory of his Father but he didn't want it in place of his Father. Lest you forget, the most important concept here is that we see the ultimate Father-Son relationship in action. Quote Then God reveals to his Apostles a new revelation. What new revelation? Quote Though God had previously said that he created all things, (of course all things would include the second image), “By himself” “Alone” and that there was “none beside him, “neither was there none like him”, (though they claim that this second image was beside him), yet now God says “surprise” I forgot to tell you that I created all things through my second image, which is a smaller god a smaller divine being than I am. I did this so you could relate to me! Yeah, not nice of ol' God to do that to us huh. Its a shame He hid the fact that he was actually 3-gods-in-1 too. Or better yet, that He was going to eventually develop a multiple personality disorder. We were all duped. Or maybe, just maybe, God didn't tell the people because it was not important for them to know at the time. They had a hard time worshiping the God they did know. And BTW, He did promise them a Messiah. Well, waddya know, God came through after all! Why would God have to tell man about another God if there really wasn't another God? Makes all the sense in the world. Quote Then God pauses and says “But wait a minute, how could I have created “all things” through the second Image if I created the second image”? O well! They wont care! Or on the flipside, maybe He said “I created everything by my first personality but it was through my second personality. Where is that third personality going to fit into all of this? Oh, I'll just add him later”. Yeshua was not created. Snore. Quote And then God says “come to me” through this image I have created of myself. Hey, God was the one who made the rule that we couldn't see Him and live. Well, at least not in this rotten body. Because of man's sin, an intercessor was necessary. But that's easy, it happens through God's 2nd personality, right? Quote And God says, “You are now under a New covenant, the 1st and second commandment is no longer valid! Why are they no longer valid? Are you talking about the first 2 that God gave the children of Israel or the greatest two Yeshua spoke of? We'll work off of both 1. “You shall have no other gods before me” Non-trinitarians worship God the Father through the Son. In fact, if you'll notice Non-Ts place more emphasis on this than Trinitarians do. Trinitarians worship either the Father or the Son, doesn't matter, they're both God. Strange though, they don't worship the Holy Spirit but its the 3rd God isn't it? In fact, if anyone is in danger of violating the First Commandment, its Trinitarians. Your user name says it all “WorshippingJesus”. Yeshua said it the best: “true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth”. 2. You shall not make for yourself an idol” Let's see, what idol can I see in non-trinitarians…hmmm. None I can think of. Now Trinitarians, they have this three-faced God… OK, on to the greatest commandments as put forth by Yeshua YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. Well, non-T's see the Father as God, so no issue here. I guess the issue is if you believe Yeshua is God, then you feel we're not loving God because we put the Father first. BUT, I guess that means I gotta love the Holy Spirit with all my soul, mind and strength. Hard to divide my full love between three Gods, but I'll try. YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. I don't know that this one is affected either way. Quote This is the kind of hogwash that men believe today. You said it. Its amazing how many people believe God is really three Gods, but yet just one God. Blows my mind.

K

Hello. Is there a modalist here?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Laurel @ July 13 2007,16:49)

Hi WJ, No I am not JW. In fact I can claim no religion. I follow the Bible all of it. I don't believe there can be a complete understanding of the old covenant without the new and vice-versa. The way I see it, Paul told us to Keep the Feasts, not with the old leaven (of the Pharisees like Y'shua taught), but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I follow the commands that YHWH wrote with His own finger, because they were placed in the most set-apart place on earth, which is a shadow picture of the Judgement seat of the Messiah. I am a sinfull being, especially when I think. I need Y'shua Messiah to show me the way to the Father. I can not do it alone. Through the Set-apart Spirit, I learn as I go why, how, and when. I honor the 7th day Sabbath of my Lord and my Elohim. I also celebrate the Feasts under the new covenant, as Paul, says. JW's go to church on Sun-god day. They therefore do not even try to keep the commands. I think they are under that greasy-grace, sloppy agape doctrine of the Pharisees, and the great harlot mother of all the little whore churches that go after pagen god's, like Estarte' with the eggs dyed in the blood of infants, and the play boy, I mean Estarte' bunnies humping all around doing the let do because it feels like love to me dance.

K

Oh yes, of course the Holy Spirit prays to himself!

Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[Laurel]

WJ,
You qouted me and then commented something I quite didn't understand. Can you explain the comment about the holy spirit worshipping himself? That's a little over my head.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:00)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,21:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,21:32) Hi Is 1.18, You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father. So when this God introduced Himself here Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'” Who was speaking. The Father, The Son,   The Spirit or a trinity? Okay Nick, prove to me that this was the Father speaking. Give me scriptural evidence, not your personal theology. Isaiah, I would still like to hear your answer to Nick's question when you have time? WJ – would you care to answer too? Thanks, brothers.

Hi Isaiah and WJ,

I've been away on vacation and the boards have been alive! So many pages to go through……can one of you tell me if either of you got around to answering this question? And if so, on what page?

Thanks,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,16:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,12:24) K Because an “it” can't think, speak, guide, hear, comfort, strengthen, pray, be blasphemed, grieved, lead, glorify, testify etc, etc, etc. “It” can if “it” is a direct extension of God. Where do we get the idea that the Holy Spirit is ever disconnected from God? All it is able to do derives from its source, YHWH. Quote Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (autos) not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Again, no reason that “he” cannot be replaced with “it”, The source of all of the things that the Holy Spirit does is YHWH. It is Him that provides, but the Holy Spirit is the channel, the conduit for receiving. Quote Greek for Him 'autos' which means; 1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it The same greek word (autos) is used for the Father and the Son and men etc. I suppose the Father and the Son is not a him or a he but an it? Only if the translators had a reason for using “it”. But nah, God and Yeshua are “people” so “he” works rather nicely. Quote Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself*; but whatsoever he shall hear, *that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come. 14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, *and shall shew it unto you*. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Spirit) *shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*. You know what this sounds like (not to make light)? An ancient way to describe television. A television takes a signal from a source and reveals what the source intends for the viewer to see and hear. Now I know that the Holy Spirit is not that, but minus any discernible personality of its own, I'm still not seeing any reason to see why the Holy Spirit is a “he” versus an “it”. Does the Holy Spirit speak, or is it God speaking in us through the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit do the comforting, or is it God comforting through it? Since you cannot see where the Holy Spirit EVER acts on its own, it is but a vessel for God to communicate with us. In fact, by saying that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, God is saying that blasphemy against Him is unforgivable. How can you blaspheme the Holy Spirit without blaspheming God Himself?

K

Am I dreaming or did you just totally pass by all my points.

For instance this one…

Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself*; but whatsoever he shall hear, *that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, *and shall shew it unto you*.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Spirit) *shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.

Is The Father subservient to the Son?

Did you miss something here?

Maybe you could answer my questions without all the sarcasm!

Is The Father subservient to the Son?

Lets look a little closer…

Vrs 13… “he shall not speak of himself”

Is this the Father? Or as you say, “Just an extension of the Father”. In fact could you give me a scripture that says this…

Quote

“It” can if “it” is a direct extension of God.

God is Spirit!

How about this…

Vrs 13… “whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak”

Did the Father have to hear someone else before he could speak?

Vrs 13…“and he will shew you things to come”.

Of course after he heard what he was to speak then he shews us things to come. I wonder who the Father is getting this information from?

Do you know sir?

vrs 14…he shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you

Oh there it is. The Father is listening to Jesus and taking back from Jesus what he gave him and giving it to us!

Is that right sir?

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Spirit) *shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.

So the Father gives Jesus all things then takes it back from Jesus and gives unto us?

Of course he has to hear and speak only what Jesus says right?

Not!  

How do you explain this…

1 Cor 2:13
*For by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made *to drink into one Spirit*.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the *Lord is that Spirit*: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by *one Spirit* unto the Father.

We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit – Comforter – Holy Spirit that are terms being used in speaking of *God dwelling in our Body* the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
10 And if *Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by *his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

Now we see most of the terms I mentioned earlier in Rom 8:9,10,11. A close look at these scri
ptures shows Paul uses the terms interchangeably to describe the “One Spirit”, in fact to describe the one God that is in us.

Look and see!

*Father*

II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

*Son*.

II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates?

Phil. 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

*Holy Spirit*.

I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the *Holy Ghost which is in you*, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by *one Spirit* unto the Father.

How do you explain the above scriptures showing the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, living in us?

1 Cor 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

How many spirits did you recieve kejonn?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Laurel @ July 13 2007,17:20)

WJ, You qouted me and then commented something I quite didn't understand. Can you explain the comment about the holy spirit worshipping himself? That's a little over my head.

MY BAD!

That post was for Kejonn!

Sorry!

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2007,16:21)

Mitsubishi or Toyota?

Ha! Too funny, Nick!

These symbols have been said to hold within them the numbers, 666. I've tested this theory and it's true. If you follow the symbol, you can trace out 3 distinct 6's. Whatever that means -right?

The point of these symbols is to prove that each “person” of the Trinity is not the other. It is trying to prove that each “person” is IN FACT a REAL PERSON in their own right.

I have issues with this as it relates to the Trinity.

Scripture tells us that it was the Father's “will” to crush the Son. Scripture tells us that it was the Son's “will” to let the cup pass from him (two seemingly opposing desires/wills).

Scripture tells us that we cannot have the “mind” of God, but that we have the “mind” of Christ (1 Cor 2:16).

Are these 2 “persons” mentioned above seperate or a unity? Are they 2 REAL PEOPLE, or are they 1 PERSON?

WJ tells me to follow scripture – well, scripture says this about the Father and Jesus (that they have 2 wills/2 minds).

Can ONE GOD have 2 wills and 2 minds?

[Not3in1]

WJ –

“My bad”? This is a term that my 10 year old is using! Ha!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,16:51)

Follow-up to last post: don't think I'm literally comparing the Holy Spirit to such an inanimate object as TV. But I believe that the Holy Spirit is our means to receive power, love, and so many other things from the Father through the Son.

Kejonn

So love comes from an it?

Phil 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

The Greek for communion means “communion”.

So do you have communion with an it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2007,11:26)

Quote (Mr. Steve @ July 13 2007,11:09) Why did Christ command that we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost is not a distinct person? Hi Mr S, Did the disciples do so? Why not? There are threads on this verse as Eusebius claimed it was not written originally in this form but “…in my name”

NH

Do you follow Eusebius or the scriptures?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2007,09:14)

Hi , Here is the trinity circular use of LOGIC in all it's glory “1. In John 20:28 Thomas declared Yeshua to be his Lord and God. 2. A Jewish monotheist has only ONE personal God, namely YHWH. 3. It's therefore implausible to think that Thomas had acquired another God. 4. So Yeshua must be true God.”   So simplistic. So false.

It's easy to throw around ad hominems in order to avoid the argument. Which point is incorrect, and why?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 13 2007,11:31)

Nick  You are right, We cannot be Brothers of Jesus, if one believes in the trinity.  Just one more prove that the trinity doctrine is false. Prove all things Mrs.IM4TRuth

Mrs.IM4Truth,
I have a question for you…..

Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you? You might want to think carefully before you answer.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 13 2007,18:13)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:00) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,21:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,21:32) Hi Is 1.18, You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father. So when this God introduced Himself here Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'” Who was speaking. The Father, The Son,   The Spirit or a trinity? Okay Nick, prove to me that this was the Father speaking. Give me scriptural evidence, not your personal theology. Isaiah, I would still like to hear your answer to Nick's question when you have time? WJ – would you care to answer too? Thanks, brothers. Hi Isaiah and WJ, I've been away on vacation and the boards have been alive!  So many pages to go through……can one of you tell me if either of you got around to answering this question?  And if so, on what page? Thanks, Mandy

Hi Not3,
Hope your vacation was fun. My answer to your question is it's not possible to say. The text does not offer any clue nor do any other texts outside of it.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 13 2007,19:25)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 13 2007,18:13) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:00) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,21:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,21:32) Hi Is 1.18, You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father. So when this God introduced Himself here Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'” Who was speaking. The Father, The Son,   The Spirit or a trinity? Okay Nick, prove to me that this was the Father speaking. Give me scriptural evidence, not your personal theology. Isaiah, I would still like to hear your answer to Nick's question when you have time? WJ – would you care to answer too? Thanks, brothers. Hi Isaiah and WJ, I've been away on vacation and the boards have been alive!  So many pages to go through……can one of you tell me if either of you got around to answering this question?  And if so, on what page? Thanks, Mandy Hi Not3, Hope your vacation was fun. My answer to your question is it's not possible to say. The text does not offer any clue nor do any other texts outside of it.

Hi Isaiah,

Thanks – I did have a wonderful mini-vacation with my sister from Alaska.

Regarding the “I AM” in Exodus, you say that there are no texts outside of it to give us a hint as to “who” is talking…..what about the passage that Trinitarians point to in the NT that seems to say Jesus is claiming the name, “I am…..”? I can't think of where that is off the top of my head.

[Is 1:18]

Its John 8:58. Well yes, that's quite true we do agree that Yeshua is “I AM”. But He is does not have this title to the exclusion of the Father, or the Holy Spirit. YHWH is “I AM”. Understand?

Glad you vacation was nice. I would love to go to Alaska one day.

[Author]

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