The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
LK4.1

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,07:42)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,05:44) Quote (IM4Truth @ July 06 2007,03:12) Now I like to address some of what kejonn wrote: First when I study I only us the King James Bible, because I have found that the NIV has added certain words to support the trinity doctrine.  We do have a NIV, but we never use it. I also don't believe that any Scripture is weak.  It might seem that way to you, but to others it might be just what they at that time.  You have to remember that we all grow in different levels. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a Personal Question:”  Have you been Baptized according to scripture, I mean submerged under water?” You may find it interesting that Billy Graham's wife, Ruth, was never baptized; that is, “fully submerged under water.” Do you think she will enjoy Paradise when she is raised (she just recently died)? IM4Truth – thank you for sharing the truth you know! Hi not3, Are you sure the mason BG was a true servant of God? Did you ever read his salvation message? I did and it was different to the gospel.

NH

Where is your evidence that Billy Graham was a mason?

[NickHassan]

hearsay w,
perhaps wrong.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,07:57)

Hi W, LK4.1

Yep, that is pretty much what it says in LK 4:1

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,07:57)

Hi W, LK4.1

NH

Luke 4:1 dosnt show “When Jesus was filled”.

John the baptist was filled from birth!

Do you think Jesus was greater than John?

Look at this…

Isa 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Matt 3:3
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Who was this Lord and God that John was preparing the way for?

Matt 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Wow. Our God has come in the flesh having the Spirit without measure and baptising men in the Spirit and fire!

He is just a man though right?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Working from scripture does it say Christ was filled with the Spirit before the Jordan?
We should work from scripture and not inference surely

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,12:04)

Hi W, Working from scripture does it say Christ was filled with the Spirit before the Jordan? We should work from scripture and not inference surely

NH

But it dosnt say he was filled at the Jordan either!

That is “Inference”!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Did not the Spirit of God come upon him in the Jordan and not before?

[IM4Truth]

Billy Graham was a Protestant Christian Evangelist. Who ore were did you read that Mrs. B. was never baptized. That is hard to believe since Her H. is a Christian. Most do get baptized according to scripture. 4Truth

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Off the theme but
From a quote from BG to Dr Schuller
“Dr. Graham: “Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time.”

“What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven.”

[NickHassan]

ps another site
”
MEET THE REAL REVEREND BILLY GRAHAM
HE IS NOT THE PERSON WHOM YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW!

Subtitle: With evidence garnered from places other than the public Graham Crusades, we find that Graham might be a Freemason, that his fruits are leading the church into the One-World System of Antichrist, and that his doctrines are definitely NOT Biblical.
The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again.

YOU ARE NOW ON

THE CUTTING EDGE

NEWS BRIEF: “Graham Worries Heaven Might Be Wrong Place For Him”, January 2, 2000, Fox News Interview, reported in The Calvary Contender, Vol. XVII, January 15, 2000.

“In a Jan. 2 Fox News interview, Tony Snow asked Billy Graham: 'When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?' Graham replied: 'When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: 'Well done, our good and faithful servant.' Or he may say: 'You're in the wrong place'.”

I was stunned to silence and even to a trembling of my soul when I read Billy Graham actually say that Jesus Christ may say to him, “You are in the wrong place”!! Of all the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our lives, assurance of Salvation is paramount. The Holy Spirit literally fills our hearts with the firm assurance that we are as assured of Heaven as if we are already there. Yet, here is the famous Evangelist, Billy Graham, saying he is not sure of his salvation? The reason he is unsure of his salvation becomes clearly evident in his response to Tony Snow's next question.

SNOW: “You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place? GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not – I'm not a righteous man. People put me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much.”

CALVARY CONTENDER COMMENT: “The basis of getting to Heaven is muddled in this interview, and is manward instead of Godward. Earlier in the interview, Graham's testimony of salvation made no mention of the Gospel, but was about knowing Christ in his heart, and a big change. When I read this the tears came to my eyes. Here, in his own words, is evidence of that which we have been observing for some time now. He is “not a righteous man” because he has not been washed in Jesus' blood. Recently we considered his definition of “repentance” …the “works” of changing and 'doing better' and 'being a better person'. Trying to do better 'from now on'. He doesn't understand repentance as being a “place” at the foot of Jesus' cross (without works), where he could then receive “the righteousness of God” (Rom1:17,3:5,3:21-22,Phil3:9) which is of faith “in Christ” (2Cor5:21, Jn1:12) It is a “gift”. (Eph2:8)

CUTTING EDGE COMMENT

A truly Born Again Christian — genuinely saved by God's Grace — will be puzzled by this seemingly contradictory statement as to whether he is going to Heaven or Hell. On the one hand, Graham seems to acknowledge that Jesus is going to accept him and commend him for his service, but then in the very next breath, he expresses doubt that Jesus will accept him. Then, Graham continues by saying that he is not a “righteous” man. In the genuine Christian context, these two statements make no sense whatsoever. But, if you assume that Graham is something other than a genuine Christian, this statement begins to make more sense. In fact, if Graham were to be a Freemason, say, then these two statements make perfect sense. Is Reverend Billy Graham a Freemason? Consider the evidence:

IS BILLY GRAHAM A FREEMASON?

This terrible lack of assurance of salvation in Graham's heart of hearts is not comprehensible if he is truly a Christian depending upon Jesus' imputed righteousness to get to Heaven; but, if Billy Graham is a Freemason, then this lack of assurance becomes very much more understandable, because Freemasons depend upon a person's own works to get into Heaven. Therefore, Freemasons do NOT have the assurance of the Holy Spirit in their inner soul, like all other pagans.

NEWS BRIEF: Reverend Billy Graham listed as a “Famous Mason” in two (2) major Freemason web-sites! On May 29-31, 1997, responding to a tip from one of our subscribers that Graham was a Freemason, I went hunting on the Internet for Masonic sites. Within a matter of minutes, I discovered two web-sites listing Reverend Billy Graham as one of them!

He was listed as a “Famous Mason” on the following sites:

Genesee Lodge No. 174, Free and Accepted Masons, Chartered January 11, 1866 A.D. — 5866 A.L., Under the Jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of the State of Michigan, 755 South Saginaw Street, Flint, Michigan, Robert (Bob) Orrison, Secretary., page. 3 of 7.
Louisiana Masonic Family, Free and Accepted Masons, Famous Masons section, listed under “Other Famous Masons”, This site listed many more men as Famous Masons than did the Genesee Lodge.
I literally could not believe my eyes, as I looked at both these sites listing Billy Graham as one of them — not one of us — just as Jerry Huffman of Calvary Contender stated, above. You see, even though Freemasons claim to be “Christian”, their claim has nothing whatever to do with a belief in Jesus Christ, but only in a belief in “God”, the Grand Architect of the Universe. They depend upon “good works' for eternal abode in Heaven. They do not believe only in Christian doctrine, but also upon the doctrines of all the old pagan religions of the past antiquity — especially the Egyptian Mysteries — whom God cursed and brought into Judgment when He led Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt.

I saved these two Masonic sites and printed out their pages, because I know that Graham's name could — and probably would — be removed immediately after I broke the story. But, I was shocked by how quickly his name was removed. Within a matter of days, I was alerted that his name no longer appeared on these sites, and sure enough, when I went back to them, I discovered his name missing. The B.G.E.A. also issued a denial of his being a Freemason, and the Louisiana Masonic Family issued a statement saying they were “in error” in placing his name in their section.

Now, let us return to our Graham's seemingly contradictory statement, to Tony Snow, above: 1). he hopes Jesus will welcome him into Heaven on the basis of his works for the Lord; but, 2). then Graham acknowledges that his works may not be enough to get him into Heaven, prompting Jesus to tell him that he is “in the wrong place”.

This statement is perfectly understandable when you understand Graham is a Freemason; they believe as do all Pagans, that a person's eternal destiny depends upon whether his works of good outweigh the bad in the final Balance Scale of Justice.

[Place the picture, “”Judgment Balance Scales”, flowing text to the right of it]

This picture is an accurate description of the Pagan belief in Judgment, as Graham expressed, above. A person's good works are placed on one side, while his evil works [sins] are placed on the other side. If the “good works” outweigh the “evil works”, the person goes to Heaven. If the “evil works” of a person's life outweighs the “good works”, then the person will be told by the Master of the Dead Souls, “you don't belong in Heaven”. Isn't this exactly what Graham expressed to Tony Snow dur
ing this interview?

[Place the picture, “Judgment Egyptian Balance Scales”, flowing text to the right of it, and below it]

Now, examine the typical Freemason view of the Judgment Balance Scales, pictured here. This picture is taken from Dr. Cathy Burns' book, Hidden Secrets of the Eastern Star, p. 74. Burns explains the Egyptian meaning of this picture. “This 'Egyptian Witchcraft' scene is actually portrayed in the Masonic Lodge in the 31st degree and the balance scale is one of its symbols. In this Masonic degree the 'candidate is brought into the Court of the Dead to be judged for actions while living and to determine if he deserves to dwell among the gods'. In this picture, the god Horus has the hand of the soul of the deceased, leading him to the balance scale. Horus is the Lucifer in Egyptian Mythology!

Can you see that Billy Graham has just described this Pagan concept of the judgment of the dead in his interview with Tony Snow? Graham has the Pagan mindset: he believes Jesus will take him by the hand, leading him to the balance scale! On one side of the scale Graham's “good works” of his life — undoubtedly his work in the Crusades — will be placed, while on the other side of the scale, Graham's “evil works” of his life will be placed. If the scale tips toward the “good works”, Graham believes Jesus will say to him, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant”. But, if the scale tips toward the “evil works”, Graham believes Jesus will say to him, “You don't belong in Heaven; you are in the wrong place”. And, just as any Pagan believes, Graham is convinced he will not know whether he is going to Heaven or Hell until he actually is dead and standing before the Balance Scales of the Dead.

This statement by Billy Graham is absolutely the “smoking gun” which we have been dreading, so we can definitively determine whether Graham is Wheat or a Counterfeit Tare, whether he is Freemason or not. Now we know. He is a Counterfeit Tare, and he has just expressed the most basic of Masonic beliefs regarding eternal destiny. Christian truth is so different. Listen:

“He that believeth on him is not condemned:” [John 3:18] I really like the full meaning of the original language as captured by the Amplified Commentary: “He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation –he incurs no damnation.” If Graham truly believed the Bible he has so ardently preached all these years, he would know that no true Born Again Christian will ever face the Judgment Bar, where Jesus will hand down condemnatory sentences; rather, we stand before the “Bema” Judgment Seat of Christ, to determine rewards only.
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..” [Romans 8:1]
” I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.” [Isaiah 43:25]
No greater assurance of salvation and of eternity in Heaven is possible than by the testimony of “two or three witnesses” – God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit speaking through the Apostle Paul. Graham's own confession of the Masonic-Pagan view of final judgment squarely places him in the camp of the enemy. But, we should not be surprised, for we Fundamentalists have been warning of this state of affairs for almost 50 years, pointing out the evidences of Graham's apostasy [departure from the true faith]. Consider briefly these evidences:

GRAHAM'S LONG-TERM APOSTACY
The reason Fundamentalist Christians like me had no difficulty whatsoever in believing Graham might be Freemason is that we have been sounding the alarm for years about his apostasy. Whenever anyone doubts Graham might be a counterfeit, I also ask them upon what basis they hold their opinion of him. They always say, 'his public Crusades”. I am the first to admit that the simple Gospel Graham presents during his Crusades offers little to criticize. He seems to really present the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet, acting upon Jesus' command to examine fruits [Matthew 7:16-20], we have been mightily troubled by Graham's actions apart from his public crusades. Consider very disturbing facts:

As early As 1966 He boasted that he attended the WCC assembly in New Delhi in 1961, and he hoped he would attend the 4th assembly in Uppsala, Sweden in 1968 (which he did). He has attended all but two WCC assemblies ever since. This policy continues. The World Council of Churches is unabashedly devoted to bringing all the world's religions together in what has been called the Ecumenical Movement. New Age writers pronounce that the Ecumenical Movement is the forerunner of the Religion of their New Age Christ [Antichrist]
As early as 1964 Billy Graham's Columbus, Ohio, crusades was sponsored by the modernistic Columbus area Council of Churches. This policy continues.
As early as 1957 In the New York crusade, Billy Graham had Henry Pitt Van Dusen, President of Union Theological Seminary, take a place of responsibility and authority. U.S. News wrote that Van Dusen's school was “one of the most LIBERAL and LEFT-WING schools in America.” Yet for all this, they wrote that “Dr. Van Dusen is considered by Graham as a GREAT RELIGIOUS LEADER.” Graham has also used noted apostates in his B.G.E.A. work, notably Robert McCraken and Norman Vincent Peale. Peale was a noted Freemason, also.
As early as 1963 He had United Methodist Bishop, Gerald B. Kennedy, as his Los Angeles Crusade Chairman. Kennedy wrote in one of his books: “I believe that the testimony of the New Testament, taken as a whole, is AGAINST THE DOCTRINE OF THE DEITY OF JESUS …” Thus, we see that Graham was affiliating himself with apostate “Christian” Tares as early as 1963.
As early as 1957 He sent … 373 of his New York City decision cards to the apostate Marble Collegiate Church. This trend continues, sending decision cards to apostate Protestant churches, Catholic churches, Jewish synagogues, and elsewhere. Graham single-handedly revived modernist, apostate, Liberal Protestant churches, as well as giving the Roman Catholic Church new converts from his Crusades. These types of Protestant churches were going down in flames as so many members left rather than accept the new Liberal direction of their denominations. Without Graham sending them these new converts, Apostate churches would have closed their doors.
In 1963, Mr. Graham had spoken at the Roman Catholic Belmont (NC) Abbey College. [Cutting Edge Commentary: Denying, in 1964, that Graham had spoken at any Catholic Church, when he had, in fact, spoken at Belmont Abbey College the year earlier, does not this qualify as an bold faced lie?!] In 1967 He again spoke at this college at the Institute for Ecumenical Dialogue, receiving his honorary Doctor of Humane Letters (D.H.L.) from them and saying that this was “… a time when PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS could meet together and greet each other as BROTHERS & ” Today, Graham is regularly seen complimenting the Pope, whom Graham believes is the greatest religious figure of this century. In NEWS1052, we report that, in 1991, New World Order planners declared that the Pope would be their top religious leader in the religion of The Christ, thus making him the False Prophet. It is very revealing that Graham is closely cooperating with the future False Prophet.
As early as 1959, in Christianity Today, it was reported: “Without elaboration, the evangelist [Graham] said his thinking [about Communism] had undergone some CHANGES … and he indicated that his attitude toward EASTERN EUROPE is more open.” Of course, Graham was speaking of Communism because Eastern Europe was under the Communist yoke at the time. In 1982 He visited the Moscow Peace Conference and said: “I saw no evidence of religious persecution in Russia.” This was in spite of his visit to the Siberian Pentecostals staying in the American Embassy.
In 1973, Graham said Communist Mao Tse-Tung&#3
9;s eight precepts are basically the same as the Ten Commandments. In 1973, he praised the Roman Catholic mass as a 'very beautiful thing', and in1978, he said Muhammed Ali's beliefs in Islam 'are something we all could believe'.”
In 1961, Dr. Graham said this of infant baptism: “I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant … I believe that a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, made Christian through infant baptism.”
Apostate Leslie Weatherhead Speaking On Billy Graham's Platform In London “In 1966, Dr. Graham said: 'I remember during our London Crusade of 1954, I preached a sermon … Dr. Leslie Weatherhead sat on the platform that evening and to my surprise commended my sermon.' Dr. Weatherhead was a notorious blasphemer who wrote in his book, The Christian Agnostic, that the Lord Jesus Christ was born an illegitimate child, and that Mary was no virgin, but a temple prostitute.” Note: this is typical New Age Luciferian doctrine.
Billy Graham Doesn't Think The Heathen Are Lost “In 1978, McCall's Magazine reported Dr. Graham's 'updated' understanding of the way of salvation. 'I used to think that pagans in far-off countries were lost — were going to hell — if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT … I believe there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God — through nature, for instance — and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying yes to God.”
[This information taken from “Billy Graham's 23 years of Theological Change” by Rev. Charles Emert, 1971.] Now we are in the year, 2000, and Graham has finally uttered the one statement that has revealed him to be the counterfeit Christian leader we Fundamentalists have always feared him to be. Truly, we at the End of the Age, for one of the signs of the soon appearance of Antichrist was the apostasy of the true Church. '

[Not3in1]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 06 2007,14:20)

Billy Graham was a Protestant Christian Evangelist.  Who ore were did you read that Mrs. B. was never baptized.  That is hard to believe since Her H. is a Christian.  Most do get baptized according to scripture.     4Truth

True.

However, I read this online that Ruth was a strong spirited women and although her hubby was the Great BG – she did not believe in water baptism. I'm sorry I didn't write down the source that I got this info. from. It was a respected source such as “Newsweek” or something like this.

4Truth – I am not confused as to who God is. You may have an opinion of who God is, and one that does not line up with my opinion, but I am sure that God is the Father.

[Not3in1]

Nick,

I didn't have a chance to read through all that you offered on Billy Graham, but I can say that there was a piece on him last year in Newsweek. I was surprised by what I read. It was an interview with Billy and he freely admitted that he wished he would have had more time to “be sure” of some theological ideas. That he didn't have time to really study. I was shocked, but not surprised.

It's the same with a lot of Pastor's that I have talked with. They know very little about the Trinity and it's debate. They are busy holding hands and governing church politics. In school, they had to study a wide range of topics including counseling and how to manage people. Very few Pastor's will tackle the Trinity subject.

When I left the church and my friends were very disturbed – I asked them to ask their Pastor's about the Trinity. Some of the answers that my friends received were less than satisfactory. Although, all of these friends still confess the Trinity.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,07:44)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:13) Quote (Laurel @ July 06 2007,06:07) Not 3, Simply put, the power of the Spirit makes them One. God is the Father – WHO he is. God is spirit – WHAT he is. Jesus is the Son of God – WHO he is. Jesus is a divine man – WHAT he is. Hi not3 You say “Jesus is a divine man – WHAT he is.” Is this written? He is a man. There are no divine men or women in scripture.

But GOD is Jesus' BIOLOGICAL Father.

We are adopted.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,07:41)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:13) Quote (Laurel @ July 06 2007,06:07) Not 3, Simply put, the power of the Spirit makes them One. God is the Father – WHO he is. God is spirit – WHAT he is. Jesus is the Son of God – WHO he is. Jesus is a divine man – WHAT he is. not3 I see you have been learning from t8. Well you do know that you just called Jesus God dont you. You say… Quote God is the Father – WHO he is. God is spirit – WHAT he is. So the Spirit is “What God is”. There is “One Spirit” correct? Now we know that Jesus is the Spirit according to the following… Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by *one Spirit* unto the Father. 2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty. 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Rom 8: 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit is “What God is” then Jesus is What God is! The Word was with God and the Word was God!

Hi WJ,

I learn from t8, and I learn from you!

God is spirit.  Jesus is NOT spirit; he is a man.

The “spirit of Jesus” has been explained by some here (I believe you can find this on the Holy Spirit thread).

The “spirit of Jesus” is the spirit of SONSHIP that the Father puts in our hearts.  It is not another “person.”

The spirit of sonship is not God, either.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Are you telling us what God contributed to Jesus for him to become a normal man was supernatural and not of our estate?
Is Christ an amalgam or a man?

Acts 2
” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:20)

Hi not3, Are you telling us what God contributed to Jesus for him to become a normal man was supernatural and not of our estate? Is Christ an amalgam or a man? Acts 2 ” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

Yes!

Peter also said that Jesus was the Son of the Living God.

Should we not take this literal? If not, why?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
I always have.
He is the monogenes son of God alone
who was sent into the world and conceived of Mary and God.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:54)

Hi not3, I always have. He is the monogenes son of God alone who was sent into the world and conceived of Mary and God.

If you take it literal……your last two sentences are in conflict with one another, imho.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:54)

Hi not3, I always have. He is the monogenes son of God alone who was sent into the world and conceived of Mary and God.

In your theory, Jesus begotten/conceived twice.

Once in heaven by God alone.
Once on earth by God and Mary.

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