The Trinity Doctrine

[Laurel]

If I took one large circle and called it men on earth who are saved and colored it yellow and palced it over the blue of Y'shua then all the green area would be the Spirit of YHWH, His blue and our yellow.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 03 2007,17:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:19) not3 You cant teach someone who has totally shut their mind to certain scriptures! Scriptures should be taken literrally first and foremost! not3in1 ..>thats just what trinatarians do they shut there minds and ignore all scripture evidence produces and hang on to sctiptures that can be taken different ways but you notice they simple ignor scriptures like. Jesus saying in His prayer “for thou are the ONLY TRUE GOD, or 'the word i am speaking are not mine but the words of him that sent me. or there is only ONE GOD and ONE MEDERATOR between GOD and MAN (THE MAN) Jesus Christ. not counting hundreds of other scriptures that plainly show their is no trinity. the very thing worshiping jesus is saying about you is exactly what he is doing. don't be decieved by this blind guide. hang on to what you have and remember where it say's “because they recieve not the love of the truth (GOD) will send  to them a (DELUSION) in order for them to believe (THE LIE) .  God bless and keep you and i believe He will . Your brother in Christ Jesus, Gene

Brother Gene,
Thanks so much for your encouragement – it really means a lot to me.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ July 03 2007,17:58)

If I took one large circle and called it men on earth who are saved and colored it yellow and palced it over the blue of Y'shua then all the green area would be the Spirit of YHWH, His blue and our yellow.

OK. Intersting. I'm a pretty visual person and I can see what you are saying……but I'm not totally getting it. It may come to me in the night or sometime tomorrow though. Sometimes I'm slow in getting concepts, but the light usually goes on at some point.

Are you a believer in the Oneness doctrine?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 03 2007,17:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:19) not3 You cant teach someone who has totally shut their mind to certain scriptures! Scriptures should be taken literrally first and foremost! not3in1 ..>thats just what trinatarians do they shut there minds and ignore all scripture evidence produces and hang on to sctiptures that can be taken different ways but you notice they simple ignor scriptures like. Jesus saying in His prayer “for thou are the ONLY TRUE GOD, or 'the word i am speaking are not mine but the words of him that sent me. or there is only ONE GOD and ONE MEDERATOR between GOD and MAN (THE MAN) Jesus Christ. not counting hundreds of other scriptures that plainly show their is no trinity. the very thing worshiping jesus is saying about you is exactly what he is doing. don't be decieved by this blind guide. hang on to what you have and remember where it say's “because they recieve not the love of the truth (GOD) will send  to them a (DELUSION) in order for them to believe (THE LIE) .  God bless and keep you and i believe He will . Your brother in Christ Jesus, Gene

GB

How about this scripture…

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Or this one…

Heb 1:10
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Maybe you could show us where the word “Theos” is ascribed in a “True” or “Positive” sence to any other being in the NT scriptures other than the Father and Yahshua!

Dont forget John 1:1

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

Oh and since John also wrote these surely he didnt mean anything different here…

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.

If I was one I would be stressed to.

How do you explain these contradictions?

You need to start believing the scriptures for what they say my friend!

You critisize me for having a Trinitarian faith.

I back my faith up with scriptures without the usual twisting and resting and ignoring them.

Jn 1:1, Math 28:19, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, 1 Tim 1:1 1 Jn 5:20, are just a few scriptures that support the deity of Jesus.

The Apostle John who witnessed Thomas acclamation toward Jesus also recorded Jn 1:1 and 1 Jn 5:20.

You should let go of your “Unitarian” belief and trust the Spirit of truth to open the scriptures to shew you all things concerning himself…Jesus the Word/God who came in the flesh, the Lord from heaven, YHWH who was pierced according to Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37.

Have you read these proof text?…

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus is not God?

Can you prove that the Trinitarian faith is false by scripture?

Please enlighten us my friend with your biblical proof! Rather than just making empty comments about the trinity being false.

It seems to me that you are the one ignoring scriptures. Your text dosnt say Jesus is not God.

Mine says he is.

So my friend you make all these bold accusations about blind guides etc, maybe you could give us your interpretation of these text.

[Laurel]

Not 3,
I understand that as a human being my Spiritual head is the Messiah. The head of the Messiah is YHWH. Y'shua the Son and YHWH Father are together Elohim it is plural and rendered as God in the KJV. They are one through the power of the Set-apart Spirit. The Father gave all to the Son because He is worthy. We as sinners may not go directly before the Father, but the Son is our Mediator. We are His sheep He, Y'shua is our Shepherd. We are His sheep because the Father gave us to Him. He also gave His Son to us, to guide us in the way that we are to go. If we repent of our sins and follow his example the best we can, we can be absolutely sure that we will see the kingdom of heaven and have the gift of everlasting life. That is my doctrine.

[Not3in1]

Quote (david @ July 03 2007,09:07)

Quote I know a man who has offered $10,000 to anyone who can show him where in the Bible the scriptures speak of a triune God.  Thousands have tried, but the man still has his money!! I am certain, and would bet 10,000 myself, if making money such a way was honest or not for greedy gain, that if you dropped a crate of Bibles into some village where no one had ever heard of God or the Bible, and they read these Bibles, they would most certainly, without any question or hesitation, not come up with the trinity. Even if those Bible's had God's name removed and replaced with Lord, as many do, if they understood this, there is no way they'd come up with that belief themselves.   It took clever wording of theologians hundreds of years to develop the trinity concept. Something else, More than anyone else, the pharisees wanted Jesus dead, removed, gone. They held about 6 mock trials and accused him of claiming to be God's son. If they wanted him out so bad, I can not imagine they wouldn't have used everything possible, including the idea that Jesus was claiming to be God himself. Since there is no indication in history or the Bible that they made this claim, I consider the case closed.  They only charged him with what he himself and his followers taught, that he was God's son.

Amen, David!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

One has to wonder if it weren't for John 1:1 that the whole idea of Trinity would ever have come about.

I think Zech Ch 14, Isa 9:6, Joh 20:28, Rom 9:5, Ti 2:13, Jud 6, Heb 1:3, Heb 1:8, Heb 1:10-12, Rev 1:17, Rev 2:8, Rev 22:13…might have raised some eyebrows.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Not that I regard it as a “problem” but the difficulty with this verse is that the Greek could be translated so many different ways that we can't really be certain what John was trying to say. I'm in agreement that the various translators ended up with the best rendering and almost all translations agree. But Logos has too many meanings and “ho theos” in one part with just “theos” in another makes for too much wiggle room.

I disagree. If you read it objectively and without bias there is only one conclusion you can take from John's statements in John 1:1. Moreover, there is no wiggle room with regards to what “theos” in John 1:1c denotes when grammar and context is fully considered. Whether the predicate noun is interpreted definitely or qualitatively (or perhaps with aspects of both) it amounts to the same assertion, ho Logos is YHWH. Unless you're proposing that two Gods existed perpetually in communion “in the beginning”.

Here is a more detailed explanation of these points.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

God knew what He was doing by allowing the NT to be written in Greek but you have to wonder what we would have if it had been written in Hebrew as the OT so we could put John 1:1 to rest once and for all. Again, God has His reasons…

True.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

My biggest contention of the idea with the Trinity is this one very bothersome fact: Jesus never once claimed equality with God.

I think you need to be specific when speaking of “equality”. Yeshua, the man, quite clearly did describe Himself in terms that demonstrated subservience to the Father (which is perfectly compatible with trinitarianism). So in this sense there is an unmistakable disparity in equality between them. But, it's also clear the the inequality does not extend to ontology. The NT writers argue for equivalency in nature or “essential attributes as shown in the form” before the incarnation in Philippians 2:6 and for equivalency in “being or essence”  after the incarnation in Hebrews 1:3. It would be difficult to argue that Yeshua is lesser in His nature in light of these scriptures, especially Hebrews 1:3.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

One would think that if this matter was a matter of true faith that the Son of God himself would set the record straight instead of letting others say such things. Yet he never did and now we're left wondering because of the words of one who never walked with him on earth (Paul) and another who was enamored with him (John). In any case, we must still work with what we have.

Wonder no longer kejonn! Yeshua “set the record straight” in Revelation 1:17, 2:8 and 22:13:

Revelation 1:17
“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 2:8
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:13
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

There is only one “first and last”, YHWH.

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

John 1:1 – If we don't bother with the Greek and leave it “as is”, one still can not escape the word “was” when considering the word “became” in verse 14. We cannot truly pin down who Jesus was before he came to earth because it is rather obscure, but we know what he became.

It's not obscure at all. If we don't bother with the Greek and leave it as it is then we cannot escape the conclusion that ho Logos was God, because that is what the text explicitly records. When you go beneath the English text and examine the Greek it's declared even more emphatically. Yes verse 14 records that the Word became flesh, but it does not say the He stopped becoming the Word (who “was God”) in the process. There are scriptures that bear out the Yeshua remains “the Word” (1 John 1:1, Rev 19:13 and possibly Heb 4:12-13).

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

And what he became is what he remained with the exception of gaining greater glory upon returning to his Father. That is the important part. If I was a child and became a man, I am no longer a child. When I get to Heaven, I will be glorified through his death, but I will not be God.

I agree that He remained a man forever. But I disagree that He divested Himself of what He was before. To my mind John 1:1 & 14, Phil 2:5-8 and Col 2:9 bear out that 'deity put on humanity'. When Yeshua returned to the Father the glory that they shared (John 17:5) was restored.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Philippians 2:6-7 – This goes hand-in-hand with “was” and “became” of John 1:1 & 14. Verse 6 talks of the equality, verse 7 tells us that he emptied himself of it. IOW, “was”, “became”.

I won't disagree with that. What did He empty Himself of IYO?

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Colossians 2:9 loses its strength as a verse for the equality of the Son to the Father when you compare it side by side with Ephesians 3:19. Colossians 2:9 – For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Ephesians 3:19 –  and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Not at all. The word “theotes” does not appear in Ephesians 3:19, “theos” does. These are different words and both mean different things.

Theotes

cf.

Theos

Although Paul used similar language in both passages he was pressing two different thoughts. Theotes was used in Col 2:9  as an abstract noun for ‘theos’. It does not designate that Jesus was filled with the Father Himself. Nor can you translate “theotes” to mean a simple quality or attribute of godliness, it goes well beyond this, and instead refers to ‘divine essence’ or simply put the essence of what makes God….well…God! So Colossians 2:9 does not lose strength at all. The “state of being God” or the “very essence of God” was intrinsic to Him. It's not easy to avoid the impact of a statement like that.

“But in the second passage (Col. 2:9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son” (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotes indicates the “Divine” essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His “Divine” nature and properties.”
http://www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000789

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

These verses tell us that we have one thing in common with the human Son: we have the capability of being filled fully with the Holy Spirit of God. Are we part of the Trinity too then?

The word “theotes” does not appear in Ephesians 3:19. It it did you would have a good point.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Hebrews 1:1-12 – Compare verse 4 with 10. 10 speaks of his pre-earth form and glory

Verse 10 speaks of Yeshua as YHWH. The writer applied to Him an OT text that exclusively references YHWH. According to the writer v10 was a statement uttered to the Son by the Father. A statement which explicitly affirmed He was the Creator of the universe.

Here is an expansion of that: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

which we are still not certain about. However, what does verse 4 tell us?

Verse 4 tells us that the position lo Logos relinquished when he “took on the form of a bond-servant was restored to Him at the resurrection. He was made lower (positionally) lower than the angels for time but because of the suffering of death He was crowned with glory and honor (Heb 2:9).

BTW, who is the “we” that you mention here?

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

What he has become, what he is now. There is no escaping that whatever Jesus was prior to coming to earth — and I think the key is understanding Logos — he no longer is. In verse 4 he “became much better than the angels, having inherited a much better name than they”. If Jesus has always been, why would he “become” better than the angels if he was there prior to their creation?

This is explained in Heb 2:9, I believe.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Perhaps this goes with verse 2:9 where he became lower than the angels on earth, but verse 4 does not say he became equal with the father, merely higher than the angels. Again, why was there no “and he became equal with his Father”?

He he…guess I should have read ahead! Yes I think you are right. However, I don't think it's plausible that ho Logos was a higher being than the angels, emptied himself of his very nature and became a whole new being, and then got an ontological upgrade at the resurrection to again become the being he was before. If we understand these passages to speak of a positional change rather than an ontological one it makes a lot more sense.

Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,23:34)

Thanks again for the reply.

No problem. Thanks for yours.

Blessings

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Laurel @ July 03 2007,17:58)

If I took one large circle and called it men on earth who are saved and colored it yellow and palced it over the blue of Y'shua then all the green area would be the Spirit of YHWH, His blue and our yellow.

Interesting perspective. Are you a synesthete?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father.
So when this God introduced Himself here
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”

Who was speaking.

The Father,

The Son,

The Spirit

or a trinity?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Laurel @ July 03 2007,18:34)

Not 3, I understand that as a human being my Spiritual head is the Messiah. The head of the Messiah is YHWH. Y'shua the Son and YHWH Father are together Elohim it is plural and rendered as God in the KJV. They are one through the power of the Set-apart Spirit. The Father gave all to the Son because He is worthy. We as sinners may not go directly before the Father, but the Son is our Mediator. We are His sheep He, Y'shua is our Shepherd. We are His sheep because the Father gave us to Him. He also gave His Son to us, to guide us in the way that we are to go. If we repent of our sins and follow his example the best we can, we can be absolutely sure that we will see the kingdom of heaven and have the gift of everlasting life. That is my doctrine.

Hi Laurel,
You say
“I understand that as a human being my Spiritual head is the Messiah. “
True as Jesus has been appointed Lord of All.

Acts 10:36
“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)–

He will judge the nations.

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

But it is better to be in Him, and destined to rule with him, than just to be in the nations under his authority. It is better that he really is your spiritual head and to be found in his body. The nations are under his temporal authority.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 03 2007,06:55)

Hi I am Mrs. IM4Truth!   I have been reading about the trinity here.  You both are not using some important scriptures to prove that the trinity doctrine is false.  Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as we were called in one hope of your calling; verse 5 “one Lord “one faith”one baptism; verse 6 “one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in “you all. We came out of the Catholic Church and I taught the trinity Doctrine to our Childreen.  So I know what the trinity doctrine is.  Three Persons in One and all three are equal in Power. To me it is very easy to prove that the trinity doctrine is false by reading Ephesians 5-6

Hello Mrs. IM4Truth,
Tell me something. How do you reconcile this verse:

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

…with these:

John 14:20
20In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

2 Corinthians 3:16-18
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

Ephesians 3:17
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 8:9-11
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

…or this one:

John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

How is it that the “One God” that said to be “in us” in Eph 4:6 includes the “Spirit of Christ”? How does that concept fit within your theology? Look forward to your thoughts.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,21:32)

Hi Is 1.18, You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father. So when this God introduced Himself here Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'” Who was speaking. The Father, The Son,   The Spirit or a trinity?

Okay Nick, prove to me that this was the Father speaking. Give me scriptural evidence, not your personal theology.

[acertainchap]

Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,11:06)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,07:53) Hey, Tim – are you and Chap brothers?  You look alike!  (Your Avatars, that is)   Really, I thought that I was better looking. Tim

Two aragorns ha! LoL Lol Lol more like Baromir and Faromir….. < _ _ >

[acertainchap]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 03 2007,07:45)

THE SCRIPTURE THAT PROVED IT WRONG TO ME IS:” EPHISIAN 4:4  “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; verse5  “one Lord, “one faith,”one baptism; verse 6  “one GOD and FATHER of all, who is ABOVE all, and through all. and in “you all.

I found my answer. The trinity is false because this is Biblical proof. Thank you so very very much this verse will silence many trinity believers claims like it did for me.

[acertainchap]

Here is Biblical truth given to me by Mrs. IM4Truth that proves the “trinity” doesn't exist and if anybody still argues for it after reading this passage, then you are lost in the marshes of confusion. Read this carefully and this will settle the “trinity” dispute once and for all.

Ep 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 one GOD and father of all, who is above all, and through all. and in [you] all.”

That settles it. There is one God and Father above all that works his spirit through all and in all.

Case closed.

One of the best Bible sites: http://www.biblegateway.com

[acertainchap]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,12:33)

Hi pmg and welcome, It is not a popular fact that Christ is not our God but is our Lord and the Son of that God. But this fact has an enormous amount of very important support -from God, from Christ himself, from the apostles and many others. Rather than follow the apostate church we should believe it. It is very important. Life is in the Son

Ep 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 one GOD and father of all, who is above all, and through all. and in [you] all.”

Yes I just found out about this verse of Scripture that says that proves that God and Father of all works his spirit through all and that Jesus is Lord and Savior of mankind that seems to indicate that he is not God.

[acertainchap]

Quote (pastormg @ July 03 2007,03:09)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS).”

Forgive me, please from my last statement. This Bible verse does indicate that Jesus (the Word) is God. Where does that leave us then? There is no trinity, proven.

Ep 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 one GOD and father of all, who is above all, and through all. and in [you] all.”

But Jesus is God.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS).”

Or 'the Word was God.” This is past tense indicating that Jesus at one point in time was in Unity with “with God.”

Then after he was born of the virgin….

John 1:14 (New International Version)

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He became “our” Lord and “our” Savior. This is compared to God the Father who is “the” Lord, keyword “the”.

[acertainchap]

God considers Jesus to be one with him, correct? Therefore God the Father shares his power and Glory with his Son.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

*Note that these verses are all very important but this one seems to indicate that there is an important place of postion, power and glory granted Jesus, with him being at “his right hand” or the Father's right hand. A cooperative sharing of God the Father's glory, authority, and position with his Son

18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

* One more thing. My last sentence in my last post my have been a bit confusing to some so forgive me. God the Father is “the” Lord of all and sense God had Jesus do the work of saving mankind for him, I have come to think that God the Father considers him to be “our” [mankinds'] Lord as opposed to “the” Lord. Jesus was the one that suffered on the Cross for “our” sins so having doing so that makes him “our” Lord and “our” Savior.

[acertainchap]

I felt the need to prove the “trinity” doctrine wrong. Please read on.

Ep 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 one GOD and father of all, who is above all, and through all. and in [you] all.”

Yes I just found out about this verse of Scripture that says that proves that God and Father of all works his spirit through all and that Jesus is Lord and Savior of mankind that seems to indicate that he is God as well.
———————
Quote (pastormg @ July 03 2007,03:09)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS).”

This Bible verse does indicate that Jesus (the Word) is God. Where does that leave us then? There is no trinity, proven.

Ep 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 one GOD and father of all, who is above all, and through all. and in [you] all.”

But Jesus is God.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS).”

Or ‘the Word was God.” This is past tense indicating that Jesus at one point in time was in Unity with “with God.”

Then after he was born of the virgin….

John 1:14 (New International Version)

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He became “our” Lord and “our” Savior. This is compared to God the Father who is “the” Lord, keyword “the”.

God considers Jesus to be one with him, correct? Therefore God the Father shares his power and Glory with his Son.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

*Note that these verses are all very important but this one seems to indicate that there is an important place of postion, power and glory granted Jesus, with him being at “his right hand” or the Father’s right hand. A cooperative sharing of God the Father’s glory, authority, and position with his Son

18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

* One more thing. My last sentence in my last post my have been a bit confusing to some so forgive me. God the Father is “the” Lord of all and sense God had Jesus do the work of saving mankind for him, I have come to think that God the Father considers him to be “our” [mankinds’] Lord as opposed to “the” Lord. Jesus was the one that suffered on the Cross for “our” sins so having done so, that makes him “our” Lord and “our” Savior. “The Good sheperd” of mankind.

[Laurel]

You got it!!! Awesome.

[Author]

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