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Hi and welcome Mrsm,
Trinity is not a bible teaching.
Thus no one can demand that anyone believes it.
We do not have to defend not accepting it as it lacks biblical validity.
Some may be fascinated by such speculations.
But for most of us it is frankly just irrelevant.
The biggest distraction against seeking truth
That promotes the vanity of the minds of menQuote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God (theo).John witnessed and recorded this act of Thomas without rebuke or correction by neither him nor Jesus.
As you know, there are other ways to interpret this passage surrounding Thomas.And since you love to quote it and say it is a passage that proves Jesus is God indefinitely…….whenever you quote it, I will also share my view.
Thomas may have used Theos when he said , “….and my God.” But that doesn't necessarily mean he was diretly this comment to Jesus. YES WE KNOW HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO JESUS, but we were not in the room. It could have went like this:
Thomas see his Teacher and falls to his feet and says, “My Lord!” and then with thankfulness to his God, he raises his hands towards heaven and says, “…and my God!”
It is possible. Period.
not3The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…
“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
How do you explain these contradictions?
You need to start believing the scriptures for what they say my friend!
You critisize me for having a Trinitarian faith.
I back my faith up with scriptures without the usual twisting and resting and ignoring them.
Jn 1:1, Math 28:19, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, 1 Tim 1:1 1 Jn 5:20, are just a few scriptures that support the deity of Jesus.
The Apostle John who witnessed Thomas acclamation toward Jesus also recorded Jn 1:1 and 1 Jn 5:20.
You should let go of your “Unitarian” belief and trust the Spirit of truth to open the scriptures to shew you all things concerning himself…Jesus the Word/God who came in the flesh, the Lord from heaven, YHWH who was pierced according to Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37.
Have you read these proof text?…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus is not God?
Can you prove that the Trinitarian faith is false by scripture?
Please enlighten us my friend with your biblical proof!
Hi not3,
It is amazing how much weight is put on one verse-the statement of Thomas.
But since the foundation of this doctrine is so weak it is understandable.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
First of all, hi WJ!
I'm not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you've shared.This above quote has always bothered me when I hear it. No, there are not passages of scripture that specifically say, “Jesus is not God.” HOWEVER COMMA, I don't believe there needs to be.
When God tells us he is One – to add anything to that would be wrong. To say he consists of anything more would be wrong. One is One. God tells us something – we should not add or take away from it.
One = three? There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is the second person of God, however there are many places that say God is one only.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,08:36) Hi not3,
It is amazing how much weight is put on one verse-the statement of Thomas.
But since the foundation of this doctrine is so weak it is understandable.
Nick you are so right.I have only shown one argument against the whole Thomas proof text, I'm sure there are others.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,07:58) Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,01:41) I don't think that not having the proper insight [or knowing if it's true or not] will send you to hell.
I don't know about this…..Peter and the boys were responsible to know who Jesus was. All around them people had varying ideas (some said he was John the Baptist and others had different opinions as it is written). But Jesus looked right into Peter's eyes and asked him, “Who do YOU say that I am?”
The answer was given to Peter from GOD HIMSELF!
So, knowing who Jesus is, I believe, is essential to salvation. I will trust Peter's answer (versus Thomas') because Jesus tells us that Peter's answer was not given to him by men, but by God, himself! And the answer was : Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I follow THAT Jesus.
John 17:3 basically tells us that it is a pre-req for eternal life to “know” the ONE TRUE God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
not3You say…
Quote So, knowing who Jesus is, I believe, is essential to salvation. Isnt this what you jumped all over Tim2 for saying.
He believes that you preach a different Jesus also!
Possibly? I don't really remember, to be honest. And I'm trying to forget Tim2!
He said that I was not saved even though I believed Jesus was the Son of God. So, I don't think this is quite the same thing. But of course you are free to interpret things as you will.
The thrust of my post is that we need to know who Jesus is. I'm sure you would agree with me.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
First of all, hi WJ! I'm not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you've shared.This above quote has always bothered me when I hear it. No, there are not passages of scripture that specifically say, “Jesus is not God.” HOWEVER COMMA, I don't believe there needs to be.
When God tells us he is One – to add anything to that would be wrong. To say he consists of anything more would be wrong. One is One. God tells us something – we should not add or take away from it.
One = three? There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is the second person of God, however there are many places that say God is one only.
not3You and your husband are one flesh!
Can you explain that? You are two yet one!
God says you are “One flesh”.
Every thing in the universe is plural, and yet one!
Tell you what name one thing that you can think of that is totally “singular”.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,08:36) Hi not3,
It is amazing how much weight is put on one verse-the statement of Thomas.
But since the foundation of this doctrine is so weak it is understandable.
Nick you are so right.I have only shown one argument against the whole Thomas proof text, I'm sure there are others.
NH and not3!Its not just one verse and you know it.
Shall I name them all.
How about john 1:1 and Heb 1:10 to start!
WJ, I also started my post with: “I don't know about this…..”
I think if you seek God with all your heart and still come out with the “wrong” answer……who am I to say God will not save someone? On the other hand, as I said, the answer to the question, “Who do you say that I am?” was important to Jesus.
What do you think, WJ – will JW's go to hell because they believe Jesus is Michael? Will I go to hell because I believe Jesus is the true Son of God and not an incarnation of God himself? Will you be the only one saved because you alone have the truth? Maybe so, I don't know….. what are your thoughts?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
First of all, hi WJ! I'm not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you've shared.This above quote has always bothered me when I hear it. No, there are not passages of scripture that specifically say, “Jesus is not God.” HOWEVER COMMA, I don't believe there needs to be.
When God tells us he is One – to add anything to that would be wrong. To say he consists of anything more would be wrong. One is One. God tells us something – we should not add or take away from it.
One = three? There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is the second person of God, however there are many places that say God is one only.
not3You and your husband are one flesh!
Can you explain that? You are two yet one!
God says you are “One flesh”.
Every thing in the universe is plural, and yet one!
Tell you what name one thing that you can think of that is totally “singular”.
Actually I could explain how my husband and I are “one flesh” and that would be a spiritual thing. Just as Jesus and God are “one” – we can ALSO be “one” as THEY are “one.” That is; spiritually.I don't believe when they are speaking of husband and wife becoming “one flesh” that it has to do with sex. That's just my opinion, though, I could be wrong.
I love these games…..OK…..one thing that is totally singular:
GOD ALMIGHTY!There may be words to imply or uses of english that may seem to say God is plural in the OT – but they do not override God's declaration (and Pauls) that he is single and ONE.
Do you mean by “singular” that there are no “parts” to the thing?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,08:36) Hi not3,
It is amazing how much weight is put on one verse-the statement of Thomas.
But since the foundation of this doctrine is so weak it is understandable.
Nick you are so right.I have only shown one argument against the whole Thomas proof text, I'm sure there are others.
NH and not3!Its not just one verse and you know it.
Shall I name them all.
How about john 1:1 and Heb 1:10 to start!
Hi WJ,I have to run, but I want to leave you with this –
What if all the verses you have that to you prove Jesus is God, can be explained another way (like the Thomas passage)? What would you think then?
See, to me, I have looked at all these scriptures that you may quote. I studied them out with various help tools. For me, there always seemed to be a way to explain them that made sense AND that lined up with the theme throughout the whole tenor of the Bible that GOD IS ONE.
That is why I left the church, and that is why I confessed to God that He is the only God! That Jesus is his beloved begotten. I give God praise for being who he is – God alone. I do not give this particular praise to Jesus anymore.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
First of all, hi WJ! I'm not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you've shared.This above quote has always bothered me when I hear it. No, there are not passages of scripture that specifically say, “Jesus is not God.” HOWEVER COMMA, I don't believe there needs to be.
When God tells us he is One – to add anything to that would be wrong. To say he consists of anything more would be wrong. One is One. God tells us something – we should not add or take away from it.
One = three? There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is the second person of God, however there are many places that say God is one only.
not3You and your husband are one flesh!
Can you explain that? You are two yet one!
God says you are “One flesh”.
Every thing in the universe is plural, and yet one!
Tell you what name one thing that you can think of that is totally “singular”.
Actually I could explain how my husband and I are “one flesh” and that would be a spiritual thing. Just as Jesus and God are “one” – we can ALSO be “one” as THEY are “one.” That is; spiritually.I don't believe when they are speaking of husband and wife becoming “one flesh” that it has to do with sex. That's just my opinion, though, I could be wrong.
I love these games…..OK…..one thing that is totally singular:
GOD ALMIGHTY!There may be words to imply or uses of english that may seem to say God is plural in the OT – but they do not override God's declaration (and Pauls) that he is single and ONE.
Do you mean by “singular” that there are no “parts” to the thing?
not3The bible dosnt say you and your husband are “one Spirit”. It says “one flesh”.
Again you can not explain it, but that is how God sees it!
I asked for you to give me one “thing” that exist that is totally singular and not plural?
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,08:36) Hi not3,
It is amazing how much weight is put on one verse-the statement of Thomas.
But since the foundation of this doctrine is so weak it is understandable.
Nick you are so right.I have only shown one argument against the whole Thomas proof text, I'm sure there are others.
NH and not3!Its not just one verse and you know it.
Shall I name them all.
How about john 1:1 and Heb 1:10 to start!
Hi WJ,I have to run, but I want to leave you with this –
What if all the verses you have that to you prove Jesus is God, can be explained another way (like the Thomas passage)? What would you think then?
See, to me, I have looked at all these scriptures that you may quote. I studied them out with various help tools. For me, there always seemed to be a way to explain them that made sense AND that lined up with the theme throughout the whole tenor of the Bible that GOD IS ONE.
That is why I left the church, and that is why I confessed to God that He is the only God! That Jesus is his beloved begotten. I give God praise for being who he is – God alone. I do not give this particular praise to Jesus anymore.
not3You say…
Quote
What if all the verses you have that to you prove Jesus is God, can be explained another way (like the Thomas passage)? What would you think then?Then you show me how they can be explained another way!
Quote I know a man who has offered $10,000 to anyone who can show him where in the Bible the scriptures speak of a triune God. Thousands have tried, but the man still has his money!! I am certain, and would bet 10,000 myself, if making money such a way was honest or not for greedy gain, that if you dropped a crate of Bibles into some village where no one had ever heard of God or the Bible, and they read these Bibles, they would most certainly, without any question or hesitation, not come up with the trinity.
Even if those Bible's had God's name removed and replaced with Lord, as many do, if they understood this, there is no way they'd come up with that belief themselves.
It took clever wording of theologians hundreds of years to develop the trinity concept.Something else,
More than anyone else, the pharisees wanted Jesus dead, removed, gone.
They held about 6 mock trials and accused him of claiming to be God's son.
If they wanted him out so bad, I can not imagine they wouldn't have used everything possible, including the idea that Jesus was claiming to be God himself.
Since there is no indication in history or the Bible that they made this claim, I consider the case closed. They only charged him with what he himself and his followers taught, that he was God's son.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,08:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
First of all, hi WJ! I'm not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you've shared.This above quote has always bothered me when I hear it. No, there are not passages of scripture that specifically say, “Jesus is not God.” HOWEVER COMMA, I don't believe there needs to be.
When God tells us he is One – to add anything to that would be wrong. To say he consists of anything more would be wrong. One is One. God tells us something – we should not add or take away from it.
One = three? There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is the second person of God, however there are many places that say God is one only.
not3You and your husband are one flesh!
Can you explain that? You are two yet one!
God says you are “One flesh”.
Every thing in the universe is plural, and yet one!
Tell you what name one thing that you can think of that is totally “singular”.
Hi W,
So is everything in the universe in threes?
What is your point?
The relationship between God and His son is not as marriage.Have you gone back to your binity idea?
The “third person” really gets so little press.Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,07:53) Hey, Tim – are you and Chap brothers? You look alike! (Your Avatars, that is)
Really, I thought that I was better looking. Tim
I would like to state for a fact the word Elohim which was translated to the Greek Theos or God in English is plural. I know this to be true because the Torah and Genesis 1 says in the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth which is shadowed by John where the Word says in the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh. It is plain to me that Elohim is Y'shua, Spirit and YHWH. These are not three persons as the “trinity” depicts. These are two connected by the Spirit. You will never hear me say that Y'shua is not God because Elohim is plural. You will however note that the Father and the Son are two and the Father or YHWH is the head over the Son. Just as Y'shua Messiah is the head over man and man over his woman. Nothing can come between a woman and her man, nothing can come between the Messiah and His deciples and nothing comes between the Father and the Son. The only way to the Father is through the Son. In other words if you are the man you are responsible for the Spiritual health of your wife and your children. You answer only to the Messiah who in turn speaks to our Father on our behalf. Pastors are servants and are below the family unit, created by Elohim to lift up the family and not to come between the husband and wife, just as the man of the house does not come between the Father and the Son. The Son did the works of His Father. We are to follow His example.
The big problem arises when people who aren't familiar with the Father who refuse to do His commands, do not understand that Elohim (God) is plural. If you think for a second that the Father IS Christ then you are wrong and you deny the Spirit or the power of YHWH who placed His Spirit in the Son. He did so because they have perfect understanding and respect for eachother. Y'shua was and is the only man who ever lived who earned the seat at His Father right hand. And not by His works, but because He lived to please and esteem His Father and showed it by His works. Can we move on now or are we gonna drink this milk untill the cow runs dry?
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