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I appreciate the responses to my question about John 1:1 but no one answered my question. “acertainchap” said Jesus is God. I fully agree with that statement, but all other answers were “Christ is not our God but is our Lord and the Son of that God” or “see fully developed threads on the Trinity, your questions have been answered there” (I read your answers on the Trinity and they don't answer my question about John 1:1), then the writing in green was hard to read but once again telling me I'm following men and not the Word – I'm asking you about the Word and I did not get an answer. I will try again.
Can someone on this blog please tell me the difference between the greek THEOS and THEOS? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS). Jesus is God. Period. I can fully have a discourse of any scriptural substance with anyone on this list but what I do not like to do is get sidetracked on comments like “I'm following traditions of men (which I do not follow) or comments like “Then why would you believe the dangerous speculations of men. If you are a pastor and you teach these nonbiblical things you put yourself doubly at the risk of the wrath of God.” Please stick to the question and I can certainly work with that. Thanks a lot. I am not trying to be rude I really just like to keep to the substance of what is being talked about and not attacking one another when you don't know me at all.:)
Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,01:41) I don't think that not having the proper insight [or knowing if it's true or not] will send you to hell.
I agree with you.Tim
Quote (pastormg @ July 03 2007,03:09) I appreciate the responses to my question about John 1:1 but no one answered my question. “acertainchap” said Jesus is God. I fully agree with that statement, but all other answers were “Christ is not our God but is our Lord and the Son of that God” or “see fully developed threads on the Trinity, your questions have been answered there” (I read your answers on the Trinity and they don't answer my question about John 1:1), then the writing in green was hard to read but once again telling me I'm following men and not the Word – I'm asking you about the Word and I did not get an answer. I will try again. Can someone on this blog please tell me the difference between the greek THEOS and THEOS? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS). Jesus is God. Period. I can fully have a discourse of any scriptural substance with anyone on this list but what I do not like to do is get sidetracked on comments like “I'm following traditions of men (which I do not follow) or comments like “Then why would you believe the dangerous speculations of men. If you are a pastor and you teach these nonbiblical things you put yourself doubly at the risk of the wrath of God.” Please stick to the question and I can certainly work with that. Thanks a lot. I am not trying to be rude I really just like to keep to the substance of what is being talked about and not attacking one another when you don't know me at all.:)
pastoringWelcome! And you are correct. This is the kind of response you will get when there is no explanation for a scripture!
They resort to simply accusitory responses rather than scriptural dialogue!
John 1:1 does not need any help in its interpretation.
The entire contextual support that the entire 1st chapter of John has for the simple interpretation of John 1:1 is unambiguous.
100s of scholars did not misinterpret or conspire to misinterpret John 1:1.
To believe such is simply ludicrous!
A solid exegesis for John 1:1 is found here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Blessings
Tim and ACC, I'd agree but I don't think many Trinitarians see it that way. In fact, in the introductory chapter of a book my pastor gave me, The Forgotten Trinity by James R. White, you find these statements:
We hang a person's very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine, yet if we are honest with ourselves, we really aren't sure exactly why.
It is the topic (the Trinity) we won’t talk about: no one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’ yet we have all sorts of questions about it we aren’t sure we can ask. Many believers have asked questions of those they thought more mature in the faith and have often been confused by the contradictory answers they received. Deciding it is best to remain confused rather than have one’s orthodoxy questioned, many simply leave the topic for that mythical future day ‘When I have more time.’ And in the process, we have lost out on a tremendous blessing.
The first statement is the key, yet the rest of the introductory chapter goes on to say that most Christians, when pressed to describe the Trinity give a broad range of answers, from confused to heretical (the author's word).
What I find so sad is that if any one believes that belief in the Trinity is so necessary, why are so many confused about it? Does that not speak volumes about the whole thing? When was the last time you heard someone witness to another person using the concept of the Trinity? After all, if a new Christian has merely placed his or her faith in Christ after hearing the simple gospel message as we see preached throughout the New Testament, then they must not be truly redeemed until they come to a full understanding of the Trinity.
Am I the only one who finds this to be troubling?
On a side note, my pastor has asked that I step down from teaching my class. I knew it might happen but I have been upfront with him about where I am right now, and that I am very uncertain about this man-made doctrine. He stated that even if I were to be certain that I avoided the subject that the rest of my theology would be skewed by the “heretical road I was traveling down”.
I previously had asked him to casually poll some church members on what they knew about the Trinity, but I'm certain he has not. I'm afraid he'd be in for a rude awaking; from “what's that?” to a gamut of varying answers. Again, very troubling for something that is supposed to be “the foundation of our faith”.
My foundation is Jesus Christ, what is yours?
Hi I am Mrs. IM4Truth! I have been reading about the trinity here. You both are not using some important scriptures to prove that the trinity doctrine is false. Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as we were called in one hope of your calling; verse 5 “one Lord “one faith”one baptism;
verse 6 “one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in “you all.We came out of the Catholic Church and I taught the trinity Doctrine to our Childreen. So I know what the trinity doctrine is. Three Persons in One and all three are equal in Power.
To me it is very easy to prove that the trinity doctrine is false by reading Ephesians 5-6
I do not study Greek. I do however understand that in places where the word Theos is used it refers to the Hebrew Elohim. Greek for Word is logo. There are places where the Greek renders Master as Lord as it should, BUT also in Greek YHWH is rendered as Lord, which is an error on account of the Pharisee tradition that the Name of YHWH is ineffable so they rendered Him as Adoni or LORD.
As far as the trinity, it is a pagen custom, Satan devised way back at Babel to keep the truth hidden form the average person, which most of us are, like cattle just follow the leader. As followers of Messiah we are taught to proove Scripture with Scripture. Elohim is plural and includes YHWH Father, Y'shua Son, together by the power of the Set-apart Spirit. By believing in the trinity we are kept from knowing the mighty power of His Spirit.Hello! This is Mrs. IM4Truth I am happy to hear that most of you are leaning to believe that the trinity doctrine is false. We came out of the Catholic Church and I taght the triniity doctrine to our Childeen, so I know what it teaches. There is one Scripture that has been important to me to prove it false
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope for your calling;
verse 5 “one Lord,”one faith,”one baptism;
verse 6 ” one GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all,and in 'you all.tinity teaches three person in one. SCRIPTURE TEACHES ME DIFFRENT. I AM GOING WITH SCRIPTURE WHAT ABOUT YOU?
Hi Mrs. IM4Truth! Oh, those verses have been used many times. They are ignored though because other ambiguous verses supposedly support the Trinity.
Hi acertainchap! This is Mrs. IM4Truth. Please dont give up. Read the Bible daily. Not3in1 is giveing you good advise; I do want to add a couple of scriptures that has helped me.
We came out of the Cath.Church and I taught the trinity doctrine to our Childreen, so I know what it teaches. THREE PERSONS IN ONE AND EACH IS EQUAL IN POWER.THE SCRIPTURE THAT PROVED IT WRONG TO ME IS:”
EPHISIAN 4:4 “There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
verse5 “one Lord, “one faith,”one baptism;
verse 6 “one GOD and FATHER of all, who is ABOVE all, and through all. and in “you all.Quote (Laurel @ July 03 2007,07:16) I do not study Greek. I do however understand that in places where the word Theos is used it refers to the Hebrew Elohim. Greek for Word is logo. There are places where the Greek renders Master as Lord as it should, BUT also in Greek YHWH is rendered as Lord, which is an error on account of the Pharisee tradition that the Name of YHWH is ineffable so they rendered Him as Adoni or LORD.
As far as the trinity, it is a pagen custom, Satan devised way back at Babel to keep the truth hidden form the average person, which most of us are, like cattle just follow the leader. As followers of Messiah we are taught to proove Scripture with Scripture. Elohim is plural and includes YHWH Father, Y'shua Son, together by the power of the Set-apart Spirit. By believing in the trinity we are kept from knowing the mighty power of His Spirit.
LaurelI would rather follow the scriptures then be like a cattle as you say.
John knew what “theos” meant to him. He could have used another greek word but he didnt.
Thomas also knew who his Lord and God was.
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God (theo).John witnessed and recorded this act of Thomas without rebuke or correction by neither him nor Jesus.
There are no other examples found in NT scriptures where “Theos” is ascribed in a “True” or “Positive” sence other than Father or Yahshua!
We can twist, ignore, white out these scriptures or we can believe them as they are.
You say…
Quote As far as the trinity, it is a pagen custom, Satan devised way back at Babel to keep the truth hidden form the average person, which most of us are, like cattle just follow the leader. As followers of Messiah we are taught to proove Scripture with Scripture. Since you can not prove that John 1:1 or 20:28 as well as other scriptures say that Jesus is not God, then you would be better off to follow the scriptures as they say rather than being like the cattle that follows the unbelievers of these words of the Apostles.
Simply because you or anyone says that the trinity is false does not make it so.
There is no scripture any where that says Jesus is not God, however there are many places that say he is God!
Hi pmg,
Let scripture teach you.
The teaching that “the Word was with God” appears three times in the bible
-twice in Jn1 and once in 1 jn 1.
Since the proof is found through witnesses [2Cor 13] then this fact is proven.
So what of your question?
Where are the witnesses?
If there are none then perhaps it needs to be viewed another way?Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,00:02) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,13:47) Quote (acertainchap @ July 02 2007,00:41) If the trinity is false, why does the Bible speak in plural or refer to “three separate persons?” Examples…
Romans 1:1-4: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, ”
Galatians 4:4-6: “God sent forth His Son … God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Ephesians 2:18: “for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. “
Titus 3:4-6: “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
The Bible speaks of God who is our Father. It speaks of Jesus Christ who is the Messiah; the Son of Man, and the Son of God. It speaks of God's holy spirit.Just because these are mentioned together does not make them seperate persons. It certainly doesn't make them seperate persons in “one” person. Right?'
The “spirit of Jesus” is one of sonship. It is symbolic of the sonship that we share with Jesus. There is only One spirit and that is God.
So, just because they are mentioned together doesn't make the Trinity true. There are some disciples that are mentioned together too and that doesn't make them “one person” any more than God, Jesus, and holy spirit mentioned together make up on God.
I am starting to lean more toward the 'no' trinity side. Is this a good thing?
Chap,It's a good thing if you are leaning towards the fact that God is One only…….if you are allowing God's holy spirit to teach you and not making your decisions soley on what we say here.
Of course, I encourage you with all that I am to pray and seek God. God will show you that there is NO ONE like him.
HE ALONE IS GOD!
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 03 2007,07:22) Hello! This is Mrs. IM4Truth I am happy to hear that most of you are leaning to believe that the trinity doctrine is false. We came out of the Catholic Church and I taght the triniity doctrine to our Childeen, so I know what it teaches. There is one Scripture that has been important to me to prove it false
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope for your calling;
verse 5 “one Lord,”one faith,”one baptism;
verse 6 ” one GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all,and in 'you all.tinity teaches three person in one. SCRIPTURE TEACHES ME DIFFRENT. I AM GOING WITH SCRIPTURE WHAT ABOUT YOU?
Amen, 4truth!Hi pmg,
Of course THEOS does not apply exclusively to our God.
2Cor 4.4
” 4In whom the god [THEOS}of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
So what is your point?Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,01:41) I don't think that not having the proper insight [or knowing if it's true or not] will send you to hell.
I don't know about this…..Peter and the boys were responsible to know who Jesus was. All around them people had varying ideas (some said he was John the Baptist and others had different opinions as it is written). But Jesus looked right into Peter's eyes and asked him, “Who do YOU say that I am?”
The answer was given to Peter from GOD HIMSELF!
So, knowing who Jesus is, I believe, is essential to salvation. I will trust Peter's answer (versus Thomas') because Jesus tells us that Peter's answer was not given to him by men, but by God, himself! And the answer was : Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I follow THAT Jesus.
John 17:3 basically tells us that it is a pre-req for eternal life to “know” the ONE TRUE God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Quote (pastormg @ July 03 2007,03:09) Can someone on this blog please tell me the difference between the greek THEOS and THEOS? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (THEOS) and the Word was God (THEOS)
If you are indeed a Pastor….then please share your knowledge with us regarding THEOS, since our answers did not satisfy. I will look forward to your teaching.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God (theo).John witnessed and recorded this act of Thomas without rebuke or correction by neither him nor Jesus.
As you know, there are other ways to interpret this passage surrounding Thomas.And since you love to quote it and say it is a passage that proves Jesus is God indefinitely…….whenever you quote it, I will also share my view.
Thomas may have used Theos when he said , “….and my God.” But that doesn't necessarily mean he was diretly this comment to Jesus. YES WE KNOW HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO JESUS, but we were not in the room. It could have went like this:
Thomas see his Teacher and falls to his feet and says, “My Lord!” and then with thankfulness to his God, he raises his hands towards heaven and says, “…and my God!”
It is possible. Period.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:45) Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God (theo).John witnessed and recorded this act of Thomas without rebuke or correction by neither him nor Jesus.
As you know, there are other ways to interpret this passage surrounding Thomas.And since you love to quote it and say it is a passage that proves Jesus is God indefinitely…….whenever you quote it, I will also share my view.
Thomas may have used Theos when he said , “….and my God.” But that doesn't necessarily mean he was diretly this comment to Jesus. YES WE KNOW HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO JESUS, but we were not in the room. It could have went like this:
Thomas see his Teacher and falls to his feet and says, “My Lord!” and then with thankfulness to his God, he raises his hands towards heaven and says, “…and my God!”
It is possible. Period.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,07:58) Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,01:41) I don't think that not having the proper insight [or knowing if it's true or not] will send you to hell.
I don't know about this…..Peter and the boys were responsible to know who Jesus was. All around them people had varying ideas (some said he was John the Baptist and others had different opinions as it is written). But Jesus looked right into Peter's eyes and asked him, “Who do YOU say that I am?”
The answer was given to Peter from GOD HIMSELF!
So, knowing who Jesus is, I believe, is essential to salvation. I will trust Peter's answer (versus Thomas') because Jesus tells us that Peter's answer was not given to him by men, but by God, himself! And the answer was : Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I follow THAT Jesus.
John 17:3 basically tells us that it is a pre-req for eternal life to “know” the ONE TRUE God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
not3You say…
Quote So, knowing who Jesus is, I believe, is essential to salvation. Isnt this what you jumped all over Tim2 for saying.
He believes that you preach a different Jesus also!
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