The Trinity Doctrine

[acertainchap]

Jesus is God.

[NickHassan]

Hi pmg and welcome,
It is not a popular fact that Christ is not our God but is our Lord and the Son of that God.
But this fact has an enormous amount of very important support -from God, from Christ himself, from the apostles and many others.
Rather than follow the apostate church we should believe it.
It is very important.
Life is in the Son

[Not3in1]

Pmg,

Welcome. Please see fully developed threads on th Trinity here. Your questions have been answered there by many of us. Thanks!

[Not3in1]

Quote (acertainchap @ July 02 2007,00:41)

If the trinity is false, why does the Bible speak in plural or refer to  “three separate persons?” Examples… Romans 1:1-4: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, ” Galatians 4:4-6: “God sent forth His Son … God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Ephesians 2:18: “for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. “ Titus 3:4-6: “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior”

The Bible speaks of God who is our Father. It speaks of Jesus Christ who is the Messiah; the Son of Man, and the Son of God. It speaks of God's holy spirit.

Just because these are mentioned together does not make them seperate persons. It certainly doesn't make them seperate persons in “one” person. Right?'

The “spirit of Jesus” is one of sonship. It is symbolic of the sonship that we share with Jesus. There is only One spirit and that is God.

So, just because they are mentioned together doesn't make the Trinity true. There are some disciples that are mentioned together too and that doesn't make them “one person” any more than God, Jesus, and holy spirit mentioned together make up on God.

[NickHassan]

Hi pmg,
Who told you God is a trinity?
Did God say so through Christ or any of the prophets and apostles?
No.
Thenwhy would you believe the dangerous speculations of men.
If you are a pastor and you teach these nonbiblical things you put yourself doubly at the risk of the wrath of God.

2Tim 1
” 13Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.”

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,08:38)

1. The Heavenly Father of Jesus is true God 2. The Son (Jesus) is true God 3. The Holy Spirit is true God 4. There is only one true God Nick, Not3, Kenrch, Tim….which one is untrue? and why?

I'm not on the list, but I'm gonna throw my two cents in anyways (sorry)

1. The Heavenly Father is THE true God – John 17:3
2. The Son is God in the sense that the judges of Israel were said to be gods. The judges were appointed of God to represent His judgment on earth. That is why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34. Jesus is the ultimate representative of God on earth, but this does not make him God the Father or equal with God. He is God by representation of the nature and character of God the Father, the Almighty God, God of gods. And he has the nature of God through his conception — has there been another who was born of God? And while Jesus may share the title of Lord of lords by his inheritance, he does not share the honor and position of God of gods (Deuteronomy 10:17).
3. The Holy Spirit is inseparable from God. It indwells us as an extension of Him, as it fully indwelled the Son. The Holy Spirit has never been worshiped and has always done the Will of God. There is no indication of it being apart and separate from God. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God continues to teach us, communicate with us, and comfort us. It is not God but of God — God the Father.
4. There is only one true Yahweh God. His Son Yeshua was a “true God” in the sense that, like the judges of Israel, he represented the one True God, Yahweh, God the Father. Yet Jesus could earn the title of “God” with a capital “G” because he is the only to fully be able to represent God to us, in perfection, while taking the form of Man. He is the only begotten Son of God, yet Son of Man. None other has been — or will be — able to represent God the Father to Man in a manner which we can see and understand. The judges were merely imperfect humans and were only called “gods” — Jesus is the only one of humanity worthy of the title of “God” because of his Father.

Thanks for the list.

[Proclaimer]

Is there any point to having this discussion?

It seems like another Trinity thread of which there are a few.

Is this discussion distinctive enough to have it's own identity?

[Proclaimer]

The Father is the one true God.
Jesus is the son of the one true God.
Jesus is the prototype son.
We are sons and will be like him.
He will call us brothers.
But we will never be the prototype, just as Jesus is not and never will be the one true God.

The Father is the one True God. The first commandment teaches that God is one. Too many here try to teach that he is triune.

This is a departure that has serious consequences.

The apostasy still exists in our time and we shouldn't partake of it.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ July 02 2007,16:48)

The apostasy still exists in our time and we shouldn't partake of it.

Thanks for the warning, t8.

Sometimes I find it difficult to answer those here who quote the same scriptures over and over again.

Sometimes it gets frustrating when Greek words are brought into the conversation and I haven't a clue what is being said.

Sometimes I wonder why God would chose to reveal himself differently to me than to others here……

I'm thinking out loud here, sorry.

[Laurel]

Welcome pastor,
I'm new here also. I agree with these fellows of Messiah. Y'shua Messiah is the Son. Y'shua speaks of and to His Father in heaven, and I believe He was not talking to Himself. He prayed for the wrath from sin which was represented by a cup, to be taken from Himself, BUT that it be His Father's will and not His that should be done. So then, how can this be? Only through the divine and mighty power of the Set-apart Spirit. If we deny that power then we are powerless and unsaved. If any denies Y'shua came in the flesh, this one is not His. The same power that made heaven and earth in 6 literal days is the same that gave us His Son to be an ensample to us on how we should live, and raised Him from the dead. Y'shua being dead was asleep according to the definition of death in Scripture and in no possible way could He have raised Himself. We do not bow to idol symbols of a Roman “electric chair”or a dead body on it, we worship the living Elohim who IS alive and well within the hearts, minds and souls of us who believe in the Son, and the Father, and are blessed to receive Him through the Set-apart Spirit, and obey His commands, all of them. You will never proove a trinity, since there is none. Also you will never proove many other false doctrine that Christain pastor all over the earth teach. I am speaking of commands and traditions of men. We here as far as I can tell, are those who have been called out of pagen worship that we inherited from our fathers, but were called by the power of the Spirit of Elohim to hear the truth the doctrine written in His Set-apart Word. We choose to believe it rather that traditions of men. We have open discussion to speak of the things we have been privvy to and prove with Scripture those things. Nick is correct when he says if you are actually a pastor, you will have a lot of explaining to do upon judgement, if you teach your flock to follow after mans imaginations rather that His Set-apart Word. If you would like quotes I can post all day and night, but you will never see the truth untill you humble yourself very low, as a child who hears something for the first time, and trusts the Word as it is written. Orthodoxy is the root of Babylon, and the “church” never had and will never have the power to change the truth that is revealed through His Spirit.

[Not3in1]

Hey Laurel,

Would you mind changing the color of your posts? The green is too light for me to read without squinting? Sorry, if you love green, no big deal – I'll cope!

[Laurel]

Sorry about the green. I can't figure out how I made it green to start with. Help?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ July 02 2007,17:25)

Sorry about the green. I can't figure out how I made it green to start with. Help?

Ha! OK, well, go into “Your Control Panel” which is located in the upper left section of your screen. There you should be able to add a picture (called an “Avatar”) for under your name, and also be able to change your posting color.

Hope this helps?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,18:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,08:38) 1. Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,08:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,08:25) Hi ACC, You still speak with the voice of a stranger quoting the speculations of men. Check whether you have the necessary witnesses in heaven. 1Jn 5 “6This is he who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I was only trying to see if the trinity was real or not. If each of these four precepts are biblically true, then the trinity is true: 1. The Heavenly Father of Jesus is true God 2. The Son (Jesus) is true God 3. The Holy Spirit is true God 4. There is only one true God Nick, Not3, Kenrch, Tim….which one is untrue? and why? OK, I'll take a stab at this. 1.  The heavenly Father is the only God 2.  Jesus is the only begotten of the only God 3.  The holy spirit of God – is God himself 4.  The Father is the only true God Verses do come to mind, but it's getting late and I'll check back this weekend. Isaiah, I believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was/is only ONE GOD.  In the OT, God is jealous, and he goes to great lengths to tell us he is only ONE; why would he do that if he wasn't?  Indeed you say that you believe in One God, but that is only changing what language means.  One God that is “made up” of three persons is NOT ONE.  I know you are a clever man……but one does not equal three no matter how many greek words you introduce.

Thanks Not3. I found the answer you gave to #3 very curious. I might take that up with you in the Holy Spirit thread.

kejonn> your answers were interesting too. Jesus is God in the representative sense only. Hmmm. I think that notion is challenged by a lot of scriptures, some of which are John 1:1, Phil 2:6-7, Col 2:9, Heb 1:2-12….

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1,18,
Christ is not the God of Whom he is the son.

[kejonn]

Is 1:18,

Thanks for the response. One has to wonder if it weren't for John 1:1 that the whole idea of Trinity would ever have come about. Not that I regard it as a “problem” but the difficulty with this verse is that the Greek could be translated so many different ways that we can't really be certain what John was trying to say. I'm in agreement that the various translators ended up with the best rendering and almost all translations agree. But Logos has too many meanings and “ho theos” in one part with just “theos” in another makes for too much wiggle room. God knew what He was doing by allowing the NT to be written in Greek but you have to wonder what we would have if it had been written in Hebrew as the OT so we could put John 1:1 to rest once and for all. Again, God has His reasons…

My biggest contention of the idea with the Trinity is this one very bothersome fact: Jesus never once claimed equality with God. One would think that if this matter was a matter of true faith that the Son of God himself would set the record straight instead of letting others say such things. Yet he never did and now we're left wondering because of the words of one who never walked with him on earth (Paul) and another who was enamored with him (John).

In any case, we must still work with what we have.

John 1:1 – If we don't bother with the Greek and leave it “as is”, one still can not escape the word “was” when considering the word “became” in verse 14. We cannot truly pin down who Jesus was before he came to earth because it is rather obscure, but we know what he became. And what he became is what he remained with the exception of gaining greater glory upon returning to his Father. That is the important part. If I was a child and became a man, I am no longer a child. When I get to Heaven, I will be glorified through his death, but I will not be God.

Philippians 2:6-7 – This goes hand-in-hand with “was” and “became” of John 1:1 & 14. Verse 6 talks of the equality, verse 7 tells us that he emptied himself of it. IOW, “was”, “became”.

Colossians 2:9 loses its strength as a verse for the equality of the Son to the Father when you compare it side by side with Ephesians 3:19.

Colossians 2:9 – For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Ephesians 3:19 – and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

These verses tell us that we have one thing in common with the human Son: we have the capability of being filled fully with the Holy Spirit of God. Are we part of the Trinity too then?

Hebrews 1:1-12 – Compare verse 4 with 10. 10 speaks of his pre-earth form and glory, which we are still not certain about. However, what does verse 4 tell us? What he has become, what he is now. There is no escaping that whatever Jesus was prior to coming to earth — and I think the key is understanding Logos — he no longer is. In verse 4 he “became much better than the angels, having inherited a much better name than they”. If Jesus has always been, why would he “become” better than the angels if he was there prior to their creation? Perhaps this goes with verse 2:9 where he became lower than the angels on earth, but verse 4 does not say he became equal with the father, merely higher than the angels. Again, why was there no “and he became equal with his Father”?

Thanks again for the reply.

[acertainchap]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 02 2007,13:47)

Quote (acertainchap @ July 02 2007,00:41) If the trinity is false, why does the Bible speak in plural or refer to  “three separate persons?” Examples… Romans 1:1-4: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, ” Galatians 4:4-6: “God sent forth His Son … God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Ephesians 2:18: “for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. “ Titus 3:4-6: “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior” The Bible speaks of God who is our Father.  It speaks of Jesus Christ who is the Messiah; the Son of Man, and the Son of God.  It speaks of God's holy spirit. Just because these are mentioned together does not make them seperate persons.  It certainly doesn't make them seperate persons in “one” person.  Right?' The “spirit of Jesus” is one of sonship.  It is symbolic of the sonship that we share with Jesus.  There is only One spirit and that is God. So, just because they are mentioned together doesn't make the Trinity true.  There are some disciples that are mentioned together too and that doesn't make them “one person” any more than God, Jesus, and holy spirit mentioned together make up on God.

I am starting to lean more toward the 'no' trinity side. Is this a good thing?

[acertainchap]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,10:22)

Nick, The Monogenes son is unique. He is in a class of his own being the image of God.

Meaning what?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,00:02)

[] I am starting to lean more toward the 'no' trinity side. Is this a good thing?

Depends upon who you ask.
You will hear both that it is a good thing and that it will send you to hell.

I am comfortable not believing in the trinity because I can not find it written anywhere in scriptures.
Many people can find it inferred throughout scriptures.

Tim

[acertainchap]

I don't think that not having the proper insight [or knowing if it's true or not] will send you to hell.

[Author]

Posts