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Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,08:11) I was simply attempting to prove the Trinity's existence, which belief or disbelief in I might add, is not essential to Salvation.
You know, I've heard this time and time again – understanding the Trinity and either accepting it or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation?Is this really true?
Am I the only one who believes that what you believe about Jesus will determine whether or not you are indeed, “saved”?
What about Paul's warnings against “another Jesus” and “a different gospel”? Didn't he say they didn't have power to save?
If you want an easy answer, I will give it to you.
There is a Trinity teaching.
There is no Trinity spoken of in the Bible.
I know a man who has offered $10,000 to anyone who can show him where in the Bible the scriptures speak of a triune God. Thousands have tried, but the man still has his money!!
You must seek God earnestly. The answers you want will not come and fall in your lap, I'm afraid. God want's you to seek him, and that takes time and energy (and a few headaches too)
Any relationship worth having is worth investing in.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,18:40) Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,08:11) I was simply attempting to prove the Trinity's existence, which belief or disbelief in I might add, is not essential to Salvation.
You know, I've heard this time and time again – understanding the Trinity and either accepting it or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation?Is this really true?
Am I the only one who believes that what you believe about Jesus will determine whether or not you are indeed, “saved”?
What about Paul's warnings against “another Jesus” and “a different gospel”? Didn't he say they didn't have power to save?
I've been trying to get someone to answer this very question on another thread, For Trinity believers only, please, but no one has really given an answer. That's one thing I've noticed about alot of topics, or at least about certain questions, on here. If no one has a good answer, they try to bring something else into the discussion, pick another part of the question and talk about it, or skip past it and act like it was never seen. Much like my thread about Christianity perhaps being polytheistic if there is no Trinity or Oneness. My assumption then? People are scared of the answer.So back to you statements here Not3in1. You speak of “another gospel” and “another Jesus” but let me ask you this: what about the Trinity takes away Jesus or God's message? What lessens the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross? How does any of it lessen the impact of John 3:16?
Now turn those same questions towards someone who does not believe in the Trinity. It all now depends on who they think Jesus is. Was he merely a perfect man imbued with the Holy Spirit? Is he a deity, an angel, or something not easily defined?
At this point I'm not certain I believe in the Trinity but I can see why the doctrine came about. I think they went overboard by throwing the Holy Spirit in just so they could have 3 parts instead of 2, but again, people see God using the pattern of threes so they thought it would be easier to comply with the Bible and people would swallow it easier.
So in the end, it all comes down to Jesus. Who is he? We know the rudimentary facts: Son of God not the Father, Word of God, Lamb of God, Prince of Peace, Lord of lords (which was also said of Yahweh and people avoided addressing that when pointed out), Mighty God (again, Yahweh was called Mighty AND Almighty in the OT, no one addressed), Eternal Father (who wants to even touch that one), and King of Kings.
He has never been called God of gods yet though.
So who is he? When we can answer that many doctrines will either crumble or remain.
Hi kj,
There is very good evidence that he is not our God but the Son of our God.
God said so.
He said so.
Peter said so,
JTB said so
John said so
Paul said so
Martha said so.
Soldiers said so.
etcDo we need to call more witnesses?
Nick,
No doubt. I believe as you do in the statements above. But who is this Jesus? He is Son of God, but what does that make him in relation to God the Father besides the only begotten Son of God? Is he deity or something else altogether? He is not an angel, he is not Almighty God, who is he? Do we just stop at Son of God and leave it there?
This is oh so vital to know if we will ever be able to fully put the truth or fallacy of the Trinity to rest.
Nick you have been doing your home work and I appreciate that there are people out in the world who know the truth. I must ask, then do you obey the 7th day Sabbath rest. I do and you must too in order to be so full of His wisdom.
On the topic of the trinity. It came from pagen sun-god worship. All who believe in a trinity are misguided by their own imaginings, and have missed the goal. Do not deny the power of Elohim, that is the Set-apart Spirit which give us an invisible but sure connection to YHWH Father, through His Son Y'shua Messiah. Y'shua studied the Torah and the prophets from a young child all through growing up. He believed the Set-apartness of the Word. He refused to be a sinner because Scripture taught Him to how our Father in heaven wants us to honor Him. Because Y'shua lived this extraordinary life of never committing a sin, then upon His baptism, and receiving the power of the Spirit, He was given ALL the wisdom from the Father, so much so that He could “see” Him. Y'shua Messiah was and always will be the only Adam who ever lived on this planet who's soul was pure enough to recieve ALL the blessings of the power and Spirit of YHWH. BUT, you will never hear Him boast about it because He knows without the Father He is nothing, and so through out His life He kept the commands of His Father, not to receive power for Himself but to honor His Father. YHWH gave us the gift of His Son. We are a gift to Him through the power of the Spirit. To seal this once and for all the Father would be nothing without the Son. The Father and the Son would like us all to obey His commands and believe so that we too can be together in mind, body, and, soul and to overcome sin here as our practice field so that we can graduate to the real thing in the perfect earth which is kingdom to come.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,23:54) My assumption then? People are scared of the answer.
KJ,
Don't assume too much. The reason I say this is because if folks are like me, I have a busy schedule. There are times when I have full afternoons to endulge in the forum, but there are many more times when I read a post and think to myself, “I need to remember this so I can go back and give a thoughtful answer.” And then life gets busy and I forget. If I am reminded, I usually try to give an answer (if I have an answer).That is another thing to consider – not everyone has all the answers! For me, I am here to share what I *think* I know and what I am convinced of thus far. But mainly I am here to learn. I learn by sharing; I learn by being corrected; I learn by having my pride injured; and I learn by encouragement here. Mainly, I trust God's holy spirit to guide me as I pray, worship, and read the Word.
So, if you don't get your answers from people – I trust God will reveal them to you.
Again, I'm really glad you are here. I've enjoyed your posts and desire for the truth. Your safe to assume that people are flawed, and God is truth; seek the kingdom of God.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,23:54) So back to you statements here Not3in1. You speak of “another gospel” and “another Jesus” but let me ask you this: what about the Trinity takes away Jesus or God's message? What lessens the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross? How does any of it lessen the impact of John 3:16?
KJ,
Your answer – EVERYTHING.Let me give you a short answer here. What lessens Jesus' sacrifice on the cross if he was the “second person of God”? Well, first of all it would not of been God's only begotten SON on the cross; it would have been the literal incarnation of God.
How does it impact John 3:16? See above.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,23:54) So in the end, it all comes down to Jesus. Who is he? We know the rudimentary facts: Son of God not the Father, Word of God, Lamb of God, Prince of Peace, Lord of lords (which was also said of Yahweh and people avoided addressing that when pointed out), Mighty God (again, Yahweh was called Mighty AND Almighty in the OT, no one addressed), Eternal Father (who wants to even touch that one), and King of Kings.
Jesus considered a “Father”? Yes, it's true.Who has seen his offspring because his life was cut short? God will see his offspring! Jesus is the “firstborn” of MANY BROTHERS! Folks always concentrate on the “firstborn” part to prove their theory of choice, but it is true that WE will follow Jesus by being re-born. In essence, God has said that WE are Jesus' offspring; therefore, in that regard, Jesus is an eternal Father of us all.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,23:54) So who is he? When we can answer that many doctrines will either crumble or remain.
Many are called; few are chosen.Jesus reveals his Father to whom he chooses.
May we spend the rest of our lives seeking to know the one true God, and his Son, Jesus Christ.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2007,07:34)
KJ,
Don't assume too much. The reason I say this is because if folks are like me, I have a busy schedule. There are times when I have full afternoons to endulge in the forum, but there are many more times when I read a post and think to myself, “I need to remember this so I can go back and give a thoughtful answer.” And then life gets busy and I forget. If I am reminded, I usually try to give an answer (if I have an answer).Yes, it is just an assumption on why some questions are not answered. I remember early on in the “Trinity, True or False” thread someone kept asking T8 is he was a polytheist and kept kept avoiding the answer by saying that the poster was accusing Paul as well. This went on for a couple of pages and the poster gave up. I realize that T8 dislikes labels, but in the end you can only believe there is one God (monotheist) or more than one (poly). As I've stated already, it is my opinion that the Trinity and Oneness doctrines were born out of the fear of being Christianity being viewed as polytheistic. I at least see that coming from modern day Trinitarians because they vehemently deny being polytheistic because the Trinity is 3 parts = 1 God. Oneness is avoids this easily but is also easily disproved.
Quote That is another thing to consider – not everyone has all the answers! For me, I am here to share what I *think* I know and what I am convinced of thus far. But mainly I am here to learn. I learn by sharing; I learn by being corrected; I learn by having my pride injured; and I learn by encouragement here. Mainly, I trust God's holy spirit to guide me as I pray, worship, and read the Word.
No doubt. I certainly do not. But I wonder why some people respond to posts by making statements that do not address the questions but try to sidetrack? It would be better to not answer at all than try to change the subject in hopes to lead the thread in a different direction.Quote Again, I'm really glad you are here. I've enjoyed your posts and desire for the truth. Your safe to assume that people are flawed, and God is truth; seek the kingdom of God.
Thanks! Yeah, I've known people are flawed from day 1. That is why I don't get as discouraged when people let me down…I know I do the same on many occasions.Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2007,07:41) Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,23:54) So back to you statements here Not3in1. You speak of “another gospel” and “another Jesus” but let me ask you this: what about the Trinity takes away Jesus or God's message? What lessens the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross? How does any of it lessen the impact of John 3:16?
KJ,
Your answer – EVERYTHING.Let me give you a short answer here. What lessens Jesus' sacrifice on the cross if he was the “second person of God”? Well, first of all it would not of been God's only begotten SON on the cross; it would have been the literal incarnation of God.
How does it impact John 3:16? See above.
Hehe, you'll have to forgive me. I'm a teacher so I often ask questions to get other people to think about the answers rather than just supplying what I believe God has revealed to me. I've often said that the same thing as you. In fact, I recently told my pastor the same thing: what good is the death of someone who theoretically cannot die? Yes, a body can die, as Jesus' did, but of what value is a dead flesh sack? Jesus had to die completely: body, soul, spirit, all.Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,00:33) Nick, No doubt. I believe as you do in the statements above. But who is this Jesus? He is Son of God, but what does that make him in relation to God the Father besides the only begotten Son of God? Is he deity or something else altogether? He is not an angel, he is not Almighty God, who is he? Do we just stop at Son of God and leave it there?
This is oh so vital to know if we will ever be able to fully put the truth or fallacy of the Trinity to rest.
Hi KJ,
The Monogenes son is unique. He is in a class of his own being the image of God. The trinity theory can be put to bed because it has no scriptural teaching that supports it.[2Jn]Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2007,14:42) isa 1:18..>tell me what does the word (word) mean.i believe the meanning is , expressed intellegence
Which makes no sense at all Gene.- Expressed thought cannot rightly be said to have always existed “in the beginning” – v 1a.
- Expressed thought cannot rightly be said to have been “with” (Gr. pros = face to face in communion) “God” – v 1b.
- Expressed thought cannot rightly be said to have (always) been God “in the beginning” – v 1c.
- Expressed thought cannot rightly be said to have “made” anything – v 3.
- Expressed thought cannot rightly be said to have “life in Him” – v 4.
Reading “Expressed thought” into the word Logos does not fit the context of John 1:1-4. It's as simple as that Gene.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,18:33) OK, I'll take a stab at this. 1. The heavenly Father is the only God
2. Jesus is the only begotten of the only God
3. The holy spirit of God – is God himself
4. The Father is the only true GodVerses do come to mind, but it's getting late and I'll check back this weekend.
Verses come to mind for me too….lots of them. I will have to leave thids post for another day though…..Gene
Quote isa 1:18..>tell me what does the word (word) mean.i believe the meanning is , expressed intellegence [CODE] Let the Bible explain just WHO the Word is.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,There you are. Jesus (the Word) was God and dwelt among us. So simple!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,12:59) Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,11:59) What is Logos?
Logos is one of the Greek words that translates in the English to “Word” (e.g. refer John 1:1)
Oh alrightIf the trinity is false, why does the Bible speak in plural or refer to “three separate persons?”
Examples…
Romans 1:1-4: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, ”
Galatians 4:4-6: “God sent forth His Son … God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Ephesians 2:18: “for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. “
Titus 3:4-6: “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
Hi ACC,
I cannot see trinity written there.Romans 1:1-4: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, “
God in heaven filled Jesus with His Spirit and Christ worked in that power and fulfilled the proof shown in Acts 2 that he was the Messiah and prophet sent by God by not rotting in the grave or being abandoned to Hades but being raised from the dead.
Galatians 4:4-6: “God sent forth His Son … God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
God in heaven sent His Son and filled him with His Spirit, and made the Son for us in him, the Source of that Spirit, so we too are sons of God enabled to relate to God in that Spirit.
Ephesians 2:18: “for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. “
Indeed we who are in Christ have access to God in His Spirit.
Titus 3:4-6: “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
God sent Jesus that we might listen to his gospel and repent and be born again of water and the Spirit unto eternity.
I came across your website and you say in your teaching on the Trinity that “Jesus is not God.” You claim that Jesus is the Son of God which means He is not God. Explain, John 1:1. Please do more than say it is . .”the Word was a god or . . .the Word was god (little g). In the original language it is Theos and it is the same word when it says (In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (theos) and the Word was God (theos). Now, how can you come to the conclusion scripturally that it means little god (created).
Thanks
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