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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 08 2007,19:25) STUDENT! 
If you are still around……. I have something I would like to share with you. It's a quote from the Rev. Jared Sparks, who was a Victorian era Unitarian (that sounds funny, huh?).
“Those persons who have bound themselves to a written system of faith, in the shape of a creed or confession, which they are resolved never to forsake as in the case of many clergymen, church-members and so on; such persons cannot possibly expect or hope to gain anything by examining their opinions, and comparing them with those of others, and with the standard of the Scriptures.
To change a single sentiment would be a violation of their covenant, and a crime. What conscientious man will allow the suspicion to enter his mind that anything can be wrong in a faith, which, in the most solemn manner, he has pledged his veracity to support? He may defend his adopted creed, and rally round the system to which he is chained, but he cannot go a step further.
He cannot open his mind to a new truth, nor suffer himself to concede, than an opponent's argument can have any weight, or his opinions any claim to respect. This would be to distrust the grounds of his own faith, and to betray the guilt of doubting, where he has made a sacred engagement never to doubt.
What advantage can a person, thus bound and cramped, derive from an examination of religious subjects? The public may be benefited by knowing his sentiments, and his mode of explaining and defending them; but, as for himself, his journey will be a circle; he will end where he began.”
********
I hope this has encouraged you to seek out God, and to not put him in a box lined with creeds of men!
Hi Not3in1,I had never seen that quote from Rev. Jared Sparks before.
I love it!
It finally helped me to see why I was so uncomfortable agreeing with the creed that my church expects us to be bound to.I have told my Pastor many times that I do not like to participate in the resitation of the creed during church service so I stand there quietly while every one else does.
Rev. Sparks put it so eloquently why I felt chained by the shackles of a man made creed.Thank you Not3in1. I am so happy that you participate in this forum.
Tim
To Not3in1.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,14:25) STUDENT! If you are still around……. I have something I would like to share with you. It's a quote from the Rev. Jared Sparks, who was a Victorian era Unitarian (that sounds funny, huh?).
“Those persons who have bound themselves to a written system of faith, in the shape of a creed or confession, which they are resolved never to forsake as in the case of many clergymen, church-members and so on; such persons cannot possibly expect or hope to gain anything by examining their opinions, and comparing them with those of others, and with the standard of the Scriptures.
To change a single sentiment would be a violation of their covenant, and a crime. What conscientious man will allow the suspicion to enter his mind that anything can be wrong in a faith, which, in the most solemn manner, he has pledged his veracity to support? He may defend his adopted creed, and rally round the system to which he is chained, but he cannot go a step further.
He cannot open his mind to a new truth, nor suffer himself to concede, than an opponent's argument can have any weight, or his opinions any claim to respect. This would be to distrust the grounds of his own faith, and to betray the guilt of doubting, where he has made a sacred engagement never to doubt.
What advantage can a person, thus bound and cramped, derive from an examination of religious subjects? The public may be benefited by knowing his sentiments, and his mode of explaining and defending them; but, as for himself, his journey will be a circle; he will end where he began.”
********
I hope this has encouraged you to seek out God, and to not put him in a box lined with creeds of men!
This is a great saying.What he meant by it in his own heart I do not know so therefore I am not sure if he is a great man. But the saying itself is great.
It appears from his words that he is open minded to receiving truth, but we all know that practice is another thing.
I would like to think that he also made true on this in a practical sense. But I don't know that of course.
N3n1,
You go sister………….be careful of ones that say they are praying for you because some do make it past the ceiling and could be praying to another God, then the one that is the true and living Yah.
A house divided cannot stand……….
Enjoyed reading what you have posted.
Hi,
2Peter 2” 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
To wander from the path into the arms of the whore who teaches of a trinity God not found in scripture is dangerous.
As I said on Monday, I'm no longer going to be posting on this website. But I can't stay away from message boards, so I'll be at http://www.christianforums.com/, still as “Tim2.”
I really hope everyone comes there to talk about these issues. It's an orthodox website, in that it follows the Nicene Creed, so hopefully you'll be able to give them all your hardest challenges to the Trinity, and hopefully they'll provide answers (or questions) that will help you reconsider your stance on who Jesus is.
One thing everyone might find helpful is that they have strict rules for politeness in posts, something I think we'd all benefit from.
See you there.
Tim
Tim2,
I went to your website and I especially enjoyed the thread, “No creeds but Christ – the restoration movement”
I guess you'll have to be careful there, too.
I also noticed there was a plea for Moderator's due to difficulties. So, no site is without it's problems.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.The Spirit of God dwells in us. The person of God. How is this a third person? If I said my spirit is grieved. Is that another person? Does anyone have a spirit that is a different person? The Holy Spirit IS God and not a third separate person.
IHN&L,
Ken
gwhelchel,May 12 2007,19:01
I am teaching about the doctrine of the Trinity and believe that the strongest proof of this doctrine is the second commandment. The first commandment forbids us to worship anyone other than the one true God. The second forbids us to make an image of this one true God and worship the one true God through this image. If the image is another god, then that is covered by the first commandment.
If I am not allowed to worship the one true God through a representative of Him, then how do I understand the verses in Hebrews chapter 1 that tell me that Jesus is the exact representative of God and that throughout the New Testament I am told that I can only worship the Father through the Son? It seems to me that this would break the second commandment. So, am I to believe that the Father created an image of Himself, the Son, and asked us to break His second commandment only with this one image that He personally created?
I agree that there is only one true God, Dt. 6:4 says that God is one “echod” a unity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are three Gods. It teaches that there are three persons in the Godhead, one God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism, that the Father was God in the Old Testament, the Son in the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. It teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has existed eternally in a triune relationship. The “one” God is the same word as the man and woman being “one” if you use the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
The Bible teaches that there is only ONE true God. Thus, all others that are called God can only be false gods. The Bible teaches that there is no one that can be like or possibly compared to God yet the Bible teaches that Jesus is the EXACT representation of the Father. How do you explain this?
I am seriously interested in knowing how you would answer the second commandment as New Testament believers are commanded to worship not only Jesus but to worship the Father only through the Son. If Jesus is not God the Son, equal with God the Father, than how do you explain this in light of the second commandment?
Thanks for you time in answering these questions.
Gloria
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….p=61661
These are valid questions for the Henotheist and the Unitarians and the Arians and JWs!
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 13 2007,03:58) The Second Commandment, Ex. 20:4-6, forbids us to make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. We are not to bow down before or serve this image. The Second Commandment does not merely repeat and amplify the First Commandment by forbidding us again to worship any god other than the one true God. The Second Commandment goes one step further than the First by forbidding the worship of the one true God through any image—even one representing Jehovah God Himself. God knows that man is incapable of worshipping God through anything or anyone without transferring some of the love and adoration intended and directed toward Him to the image or representative. Think of the reverence that is given to many religious symbols (e.g., the cross, statues or pictures of Jesus, the nativity at Christmas, etc.). While one may not actually worship that symbol, it has, because of it’s symbolism and what it represents, more importance than a like image without the religious significance.
The Israelites fashioned a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. They intended this image to represent the God of Israel who had led them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:4-5). The Israelites were not worshipping “another god”; they were not breaking the First Commandment. They were instead worshipping Jehovah through an image they begged Aaron to make to represent the God who brought them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:8) and thus, were breaking the Second Commandment. The result was the death of 3,000 Israelites (Ex. 32:9, 10, 27, 18; Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-21). God was very clear. The penalty for worshipping Him through an image, likeness, or representative of Himself is death.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.
Did the writers of the New Testament really teach that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son and thus worship of the Father through the Son (because they were one God) was the same as worship of God…or did they teach that Jesus was merely a representative… never to be worshipped as God but only shown respect?
Posted: May 13 2007,03:58 by gwelchelThe Second Commandment, Ex. 20:4-6, forbids us to make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. We are not to bow down before or serve this image. The Second Commandment does not merely repeat and amplify the First Commandment by forbidding us again to worship any god other than the one true God. The Second Commandment goes one step further than the First by forbidding the worship of the one true God through any image—even one representing Jehovah God Himself.
God knows that man is incapable of worshipping God through anything or anyone without transferring some of the love and adoration intended and directed toward Him to the image or representative. Think of the reverence that is given to many religious symbols (e.g., the cross, statues or pictures of Jesus, the nativity at Christmas, etc.). While one may not actually worship that symbol, it has, because of it’s symbolism and what it represents, more importance than a like image without the religious significance.
The Israelites fashioned a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. They intended this image to represent the God of Israel who had led them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:4-5). The Israelites were not worshipping “another god”; they were not breaking the First Commandment. They were instead worshipping Jehovah through an image they begged Aaron to make to represent the God who brought them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:8) and thus, were breaking the Second Commandment. The result was the death of 3,000 Israelites (Ex. 32:9, 10, 27, 18; Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-21). God was very clear. The penalty for worshipping Him through an image, likeness, or representative of Himself is death.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.
Did the writers of the New Testament really teach that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son and thus worship of the Father through the Son (because they were one God) was the same as worship of God…or did they teach that Jesus was merely a representative… never to be worshipped as God but only shown respect?
Very good questions!
Hi W,
You quote
” The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are three Gods.”
Trinity is not in the bible so we should stop there.” The doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism, that the Father was God in the Old Testament, the Son in the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. “
Is this your belief or another evolutionary development?We worship the Father.
Only believers in human teachings worship other gods.Hi GW,
You say
“The Second Commandment, Ex. 20:4-6, forbids us to make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. We are not to bow down before or serve this image. The Second Commandment does not merely repeat and amplify the First Commandment by forbidding us again to worship any god other than the one true God. The Second Commandment goes one step further than the First by forbidding the worship of the one true God through any image—even one representing Jehovah God Himself.God knows that man is incapable of worshipping God through anything or anyone without transferring some of the love and adoration intended and directed toward Him to the image or representative. Think of the reverence that is given to many religious symbols (e.g., the cross, statues or pictures of Jesus, the nativity at Christmas, etc.). While one may not actually worship that symbol, it has, because of it’s symbolism and what it represents, more importance than a like image without the religious significance.
The Israelites fashioned a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. They intended this image to represent the God of Israel who had led them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:4-5). The Israelites were not worshipping “another god”; they were not breaking the First Commandment. They were instead worshipping Jehovah through an image they begged Aaron to make to represent the God who brought them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:8) and thus, were breaking the Second Commandment. The result was the death of 3,000 Israelites (Ex. 32:9, 10, 27, 18; Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-21). God was very clear. The penalty for worshipping Him through an image, likeness, or representative of Himself is death.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.Did the writers of the New Testament really teach that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son and thus worship of the Father through the Son (because they were one God) was the same as worship of God…or did they teach that Jesus was merely a representative… never to be worshipped as God but only shown respect?”
O what a foolish web men weave.
There is no God the Son in scripture.
Men try to encourage us to confuse God with His Son.
They encourage us to worship other other strange gods equal with our God.
They they use such follies to try and justify amalgamating all these new gods with our God.
Building on sand cannot produce a strong building.
It must fall.We do not apply the judgements and commandments of God to Him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,10:10) Hi W,
You quote
” The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are three Gods.”
Trinity is not in the bible so we should stop there.” The doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism, that the Father was God in the Old Testament, the Son in the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. “
Is this your belief or another evolutionary development?We worship the Father.
Only believers in human teachings worship other gods.
NHThose are not my words.
Before you accuse you should be sure of who it is you accuse and why!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,11:37) Hi W,
So you disagree with what you quote?
NHNo. But you have missrepresented the writtings as usual!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,13:26) Hi W,
So you do agree?
NHI dont agree with your misrepresentation of the post!
In my notes over the years about the Trinity doctrine, I am taken back a little at all the different definitions of the Trinity (by various well-known pastor's, author's and evangelists). The only thing I can think of is that there is no set definition in the Bible and so each one decides for himself what definition he will use?
For instance, some believe that each person of the Trinity has their own personality – others believe there is one personality. Some believe there is only one will – other's believe all three have separate but united wills, and it goes on and on.
How does a Trinitarian go about deciding what part of the doctrine he will believe or disbelieve?
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