The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi Tim4,
Do we know?

May 18, 2007 at 1:26 pm#52510

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 18 2007,22:39)

Hi Nick,
Seriously, you said “None of the creeds were written by anointed men of God.”

How do we know for a fact that they were not anointed by God?
After all, you said that God can even use donkeys to do his will.

How do we know that the men that decided on the canon of the bible that we believe in were anointed by God?

TIm

Tim

Now you know what the Spoil of war does.There were anti Jewish back then alot of Hebrew writings were burn.The NT was layerd over for the Past 2000 years.I think the Catholic Books are 73 or 77 books and the Prodestant has 66 why the Major difference? This is one believer who dont believe that the NT was just written in Greek.It is also written in Hebrew or there sister language Arabic

But in the Last days you will see this…

Zechariah 8:23

23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

May 18, 2007 at 2:41 pm#52512

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2007,18:01)

GW,
My Mother's family is from Arkansas. Small world, huh? I visited my Auntie in Little Rock a few years back – boy the trees grow super-duper tall there. We have tall trees, but they are incrediable.

It is hard to enjoy God's creation without giving him complete credit. I tell my children that God is an amazing artist.

I've heard it said before that if it wasn't God who paid the price for our sins then we are not saved at all! Meaning, it had to be God Almighty who died or it doesn't count.

A few thoughts here: God is not a man. God cannot die. God does not change his mind.

We should abandoned the idea that God canceled out these three truths that he told us about himself. We can safely say that if he canceled these truths out – then God is liar. What else could it mean?

For me, as a Mother, it would be more difficult to offer my son as a sacrifice than it would be for me to be the sacrifice. Also, it means more to me to know that my Lord Jesus is someone I can relate to – he is my mediator. But more than that, he is also my brother. The relationship I enjoy with Jesus, to be honest, would be utterly ruined if he turned out to be God Almighty decked out in flesh.

not3

Yiou say…

Quote

The relationship I enjoy with Jesus, to be honest, would be utterly ruined if he turned out to be God Almighty decked out in flesh.

Earlier in a post I thought I read you saying since you quite believing in the trinity you stopped praying to Jesus.

My question is how can you have a relationship with Jesus without talking to him and if you do talk to him which is prayer, and you dont believe he is God, is that not against the 1st 2 commandments?

Are we supposed to pray to any other being but God?

May 18, 2007 at 2:45 pm#52513

Participant

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

May 18, 2007 at 3:31 pm#52515

Participant

Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 18 2007,19:36)

Hmmm!
Everyone shall confess to GOD that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of GOD!!

Its a no-brainer!

That is no explanation for why the strict Monotheistic Jew Paul would ascribe this scripture to Yeshua?

Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, *That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear*.

Especially when you look at the context that he pulled that scripture out of…

Isa 45:
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; *a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me*.
22 Look unto me, (Yeshua) and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for *I am God, and there is none else*.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, *That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: *even to him shall men come* (Yeshua); and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, *every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God*.

Phil 2:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.*

Dosnt it concern you that Paul did this? Do you question why he would pull out of the context where YHWH says “there is no God else beside me, there is none beside him”, “there is none else”, this verse and apply it to Yeshua?

Based on Isa 45:21,22, how can Yeshua hold the Highest place of power in the universe at the right hand of God, the right hand of power, not above him, nor beneath him, but beside him, and have a name that is above every name, if he is not God?

*a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me*.

Based on those scriptures and the 1st 2 commandments, would not Paul be committing “Idolatry” to ascribe that scripture to any other being than YHWH?

You missed the point.

Paul believes the Father and the Son are God.

If you have the Son you have the Father.

If you have the Son you have God.

Really quite simple!

May 18, 2007 at 3:35 pm#52516

Participant

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,02:45)

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

If you do how do you talk to him?

You cant have a relationship with someone without talking to them.

Talking to God is Prayer.

So should I assume that you dont have a relationship with Jesus since you dont pray to him?

And if you say you know him and have a relationship with him how do you do this without prayer?

Honest qusetions, wouldnt you say?

May 18, 2007 at 5:35 pm#52517

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,03:35)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,02:45)

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

If you do how do you talk to him?

You cant have a relationship with someone without talking to them.

Talking to God is Prayer.

So should I assume that you dont have a relationship with Jesus since you dont pray to him?

And if you say you know him and have a relationship with him how do you do this without prayer?

Honest qusetions, wouldnt you say?

My relationship with Jesus is this ..He is my BROTHER..he is not my God. He is my Lord and Saviour.I dont pray to him.I was told by Jesus himself we go to the Father…And Jesus is Not the Father.Nor is he God.However I do thank him for what he has done.But the true Saviour is the Father for sending his Son.The Son is a Saviour in his own right. The Son didnt have todo what he did.He had a Choice.But he choose to do the will of his Father Just like we should be doing the Will of Our Father.

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.What that mean is that you deny that Jesus the Son of God came in the Flesh. You are really saying that God did..

Didnt you learn anything from Adam and Eve? When the Serpant made the offering to choose between Good and Evil?And look what happen..

The same offering is set before you again.Either you except the Son or you dont.

Yes he is the Son of God or No he is really God..

Thats the Choice you have.Dont be tricked to deny the Sonship.With out the Son you dont have life!You make him (Jesus) God you deny the Son….

May 18, 2007 at 6:18 pm#52519

Participant

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,05:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,03:35)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,02:45)

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

If you do how do you talk to him?

You cant have a relationship with someone without talking to them.

Talking to God is Prayer.

So should I assume that you dont have a relationship with Jesus since you dont pray to him?

And if you say you know him and have a relationship with him how do you do this without prayer?

Honest qusetions, wouldnt you say?

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.What that mean is that you deny that Jesus the Son of God came in the Flesh. You are really saying that God did..

Didnt you learn anything from Adam and Eve? When the Serpant made the offering to choose between Good and Evil?And look what happen..

The same offering is set before you again.Either you except the Son or you dont.

Yes he is the Son of God or No he is really God..

Thats the Choice you have.Dont be tricked to deny the Sonship.With out the Son you dont have life!You make him (Jesus) God you deny the Son….

You say…

Quote

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.

Yes

And to say I am human is to deny that I am my Fathers son? Right

God is a class of being. And this being would have us pray to no other neither talk to no other neither to “thank” no other *through prayer but him*.

Isnt that what the Catholics did? They started praying to the saints and Mary.

But now we have unitarians saying they know Jesus but never talk nor pray to him? Does Jesus speak to us? You say he is your brother. I would hope that you speak to your brother. How could you know him if you didnt?

Again this is a real delima, for even Stephen and Paul is shown to pray to Jesus.

If Jesus is not God, then how can we know him or honour him as we know and honour the Father without breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment?

This is why Jesus said…

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the *only true God, **and** Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent.

Why did Jesus put his name right next to the Father like this knowing the Hebrew scriptures and the 1st and 2nd commandments, and that men would be praying to him and calling on him to have Eternal life.

For knowing the Father and Jesus is Eternal life.

How can this be?

Would the Father draw men to Jesus if he didnt want us to pray to him?

Jesus said…
Matt 11:28
*Come unto me*, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So Jesus tells us to come to him, but when we get there we say, “Excuse me Jesus, I cant talk to you, I need to see the Father now”.

Seems kind of rediculoous dosnt it. Thats because it is.

How do men get saved without calling on his name?

Is this not Prayer.

Maybe there should be a new thread on “should we pray to Jesus who is our Lord and master”?

How do you explain this in light of Hebrew scriptures that we are only to pray to God?

May 18, 2007 at 6:47 pm#52520

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,06:18)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,05:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,03:35)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,02:45)

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

If you do how do you talk to him?

You cant have a relationship with someone without talking to them.

Talking to God is Prayer.

So should I assume that you dont have a relationship with Jesus since you dont pray to him?

And if you say you know him and have a relationship with him how do you do this without prayer?

Honest qusetions, wouldnt you say?

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.What that mean is that you deny that Jesus the Son of God came in the Flesh. You are really saying that God did..

Didnt you learn anything from Adam and Eve? When the Serpant made the offering to choose between Good and Evil?And look what happen..

The same offering is set before you again.Either you except the Son or you dont.

Yes he is the Son of God or No he is really God..

Thats the Choice you have.Dont be tricked to deny the Sonship.With out the Son you dont have life!You make him (Jesus) God you deny the Son….

You say…

Quote

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.

Yes

And to say I am human is to deny that I am my Fathers son? Right

God is a class of being. And this being would have us pray to no other neither talk to no other neither to “thank” no other *through prayer but him*.

Isnt that what the Catholics did? They started praying to the saints and Mary.

Again this is a real delima, for even Stephen and Paul is shown to pray to Jesus.

If Jesus is not God, then how can we know him or honour him as we know and honour the Father without breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment?

This is why Jesus said…

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the *only true God, **and** Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent.

For knowing the Father and Jesus is Eternal life.

How can this be?

Would the Father draw men to Jesus if he didnt want us to pray to him?

Jesus said…
Matt 11:28
*Come unto me*, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So Jesus tells us to come to him, but when we get there we say, “Excuse me Jesus, I cant talk to you, I need to see the Father now”.

Seems kind of rediculoous dosnt it. Thats because it is.

How do men get saved without calling on his name?

Is this not Prayer.

Maybe there should be a new thread on “should we pray to Jesus who is our Lord and master”?

How do you explain this in light of Hebrew scriptures that we are only to pray to God?

There are two types of light One is God light whom no man can Approach..

And there is Jersus the Son of God light.Where he said to come onto me..Jesus is the light of the World.. :cool:

Two different lights wouldnt you say.. I do believe so ..hehehe

Oh and yes Jesus do have brother and Sisters and Mothers to..
Mark 3:35
35For whosoever shall do the will of God (FATHER)
, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Galatians 2:20

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.:D

Have to stop for now be back later…….

May 18, 2007 at 7:21 pm#52521

Participant

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,06:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,06:18)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,05:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,03:35)

Quote (Unisage @ May 19 2007,02:45)

Jesus said to pray to the Father who is unseen and to go in your closet and closed your door..Where does Jesus ever say pray to me?

Also Jesus said ask anything IN MY NAME it shall be given..So when I ask the Father for something it shall be given to me in Jesus name…

You know that is why God has a Name and the Son has a Name so that you can tell who to pray to..

Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

If you do how do you talk to him?

You cant have a relationship with someone without talking to them.

Talking to God is Prayer.

So should I assume that you dont have a relationship with Jesus since you dont pray to him?

And if you say you know him and have a relationship with him how do you do this without prayer?

Honest qusetions, wouldnt you say?

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.What that mean is that you deny that Jesus the Son of God came in the Flesh. You are really saying that God did..

Didnt you learn anything from Adam and Eve? When the Serpant made the offering to choose between Good and Evil?And look what happen..

The same offering is set before you again.Either you except the Son or you dont.

Yes he is the Son of God or No he is really God..

Thats the Choice you have.Dont be tricked to deny the Sonship.With out the Son you dont have life!You make him (Jesus) God you deny the Son….

You say…

Quote

To say Jesus is God is to deny his Sonship with the Father.

Yes

And to say I am human is to deny that I am my Fathers son? Right

God is a class of being. And this being would have us pray to no other neither talk to no other neither to “thank” no other *through prayer but him*.

Isnt that what the Catholics did? They started praying to the saints and Mary.

But now we have unitarians saying they know Jesus but never talk nor pray to him? Does Jesus speak to us? You say he is your brother. I would hope that you speak to your brother.

How could you know him if you didnt?

Again this is a real delima, for even Stephen and Paul is shown to pray to Jesus.

If Jesus is not God, then how can we know him or honour him as we know and honour the Father without breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment?

This is why Jesus said…

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the *only true God, **and** Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent.

For knowing the Father and Jesus is Eternal life.

How can this be?

Would the Father draw men to Jesus if he didnt want us to pray to him?

Jesus said…
Matt 11:28
*Come unto me*, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So Jesus tells us to come to him, but when we get there we say, “Excuse me Jesus, I cant talk to you, I need to see the Father now”.

Seems kind of rediculoous dosnt it. Thats because it is.

How do men get saved without calling on his name?

Is this not Prayer.

Maybe there should be a new thread on “should we pray to Jesus who is our Lord and master”?

How do you explain this in light of Hebrew scriptures that we are only to pray to God?

There are two types of light One is God light whom no man can Approach..

And there is Jersus the Son of God light.Where he said to come onto me..Jesus is the light of the World.. :cool:

Two different lights wouldnt you say.. I do believe so ..hehehe

Oh and yes Jesus do have brother and Sisters and Mothers to..
Mark 3:35
35For whosoever shall do the will of God (FATHER)
, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Galatians 2:20

Have to stop for now be back later…….

You say…

Quote

There are two types of light One is God light whom no man can Approach..

And there is Jersus the Son of God light.Where he said to come onto me..Jesus is the light of the World

So we have one light that leads to Jesus and another light that leads to God?

Which light do we follow?

You cant have two masters.

How can we follow Jesus light if we cant speak to him or he to us.

Is not our fellowship with the Father and the Son and the spirit?

1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and *truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ*.

Fellowship, Greek, 'koinonia', which means…

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint
participation, intercourse

a) the share which one has in anything, participation

b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

2 Cor. 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the *communion (koinonia)* of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

To know some one involves communication and sharing and intimacy.

It is impossible to know the Father apart from knowing Jesus!

You cant know the Father apart from the Son.

To know Jesus is to have “koinonia” with him, and that can only be done through prayer.

May 18, 2007 at 7:24 pm#52522

TimothyVI

Participant

Hi Unisage,

Are you saying that we can not trust the New testament?

Tim

May 18, 2007 at 8:22 pm#52523

Not3in1

Participant

WJ,

Fair question regarding my relationship with Jesus if I don't pray to him.

See, this is the thing, Jesus gave me an example – when we asked him how to pray, he prayed to the Father. This I do. However, we have fellowship with God and his Son because of the wonderful spirit God has given us.

May 18, 2007 at 8:36 pm#52525

Participant

Hi w,
You say
“God is a class of being.”
Mystery Babylon!!.

God is the Father of Jesus [jn8.54].

May 18, 2007 at 8:59 pm#52528

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2007,08:36)

Hi w,
You say
“God is a class of being.”
Mystery Babylon!!.

God is the Father of Jesus [jn8.54].

What? Do you think God does not stand alone as class of being by himself?

Is there any “Creature” that is compared to him?

Yet, in contrast to the OT scriptures men say that they have a Savior who is their Lord and Master and that they follow him and they pray to him and obey him and his words.

God has given us commandments against having any being before him or besides him that we should bow to or devote our love and adoration to and pray to or through!

May 18, 2007 at 9:11 pm#52530

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,08:22)

WJ,

Fair question regarding my relationship with Jesus if I don't pray to him.

Not3

I am glad that you have fellowship with the Father and with the Son.

“koinonia”

But I would ask you to sincerely consider that fellowship with the Son is through prayer.

Look at it from the overall perspective of OT scriptures and NT scriptures.

Is their any being men should call out to be saved but God?

Is their any being they should pray to to be saved but God?

May 18, 2007 at 9:22 pm#52533

Participant

Hi W,
Where is this written? Paul's letter to the THEOLOGIANS?
This is not a theology site so such musings are useless folly.
God is One
God has a son.
That is written

May 18, 2007 at 9:30 pm#52534

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2007,09:22)

Hi W,
Where is this written? Paul's letter to the THEOLOGIANS?
This is not a theology site so such musings are useless folly.
God is One
God has a son.
That is written

Yes!

God is One
God has a son.
That is written

Folly? No!

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!!!

It is found in the pages of your Bible if you will believe it!!

May 18, 2007 at 9:45 pm#52536

Participant

Hi W,
Where is it written or must you make a patchwork quilt of verses?
God speaks as to the simple and the so called wise destroy themselves with their complicated greek views.

May 19, 2007 at 1:02 am#52551

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,09:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2007,09:22)

Hi W,
Where is this written? Paul's letter to the THEOLOGIANS?
This is not a theology site so such musings are useless folly.
God is One
God has a son.
That is written

Yes!

God is One
God has a son.
That is written

Folly? No!

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!!!

It is found in the pages of your Bible if you will believe it!!

Three Person EQUAL One God??

So you do admit that Jesus is his own Father..

There is no if about it..You say Jesus is God..He is the Father by YOUR Standards..as you say ONLY one God.That makes Jesus the Father Period! You are no different than the Jesus Only!
The only different between you and the Jesus Only.. Is that you seperate them. And the Jesus Only dont.They claim Jesus is the Father and you are no different from them ..They to say Jesus is God..

As the Jesus Only say about the Trinity..It takes three Gods to beat up one devil…….

May 19, 2007 at 1:37 am#52553