The Trinity Doctrine

[Unisage]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,18:41)

Quote (Tim2 @ May 16 2007,18:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2007,18:53) HiTim2, Of course. The Spirit of God was given to Jesus. God gives His gifts without repentance. So Christ sends the Spirit of Christ to unite us to him and to God from whom the Spirit proceeds. Nick, The Spirit is also given to believers, but we don't have the authority to “send” it.  How is that Jesus has the authority to send God? And how is it that the Spirit takes of His?  John 16:15? Tim Jn 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, *I will send him unto you*. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: *for he shall receive of mine*, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, *that he shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.

Notice in verse John 16:16..Jesus said he goes to THE FATHER he didnt say “he go back to the father”.Jesus said he will send the Holy Spirit from the Father not from him self.Unless you want to have another contradiction on your hands..

WJ..You are forcing scripures to say what they dont mean.In John 16:13-15

1 Corinthians 2:12-16

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord(THE FATHER), that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 1:15-23

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 17 2007,02:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,18:41) Quote (Tim2 @ May 16 2007,18:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2007,18:53) HiTim2, Of course. The Spirit of God was given to Jesus. God gives His gifts without repentance. So Christ sends the Spirit of Christ to unite us to him and to God from whom the Spirit proceeds. Nick, The Spirit is also given to believers, but we don't have the authority to “send” it.  How is that Jesus has the authority to send God? And how is it that the Spirit takes of His?  John 16:15? Tim Jn 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, *I will send him unto you*. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: *for he shall receive of mine*, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, *that he shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you. Notice in verse John 16:16..Jesus said he goes to THE FATHER he didnt say “he go back to the father”.Jesus said he will send the Holy Spirit from the Father not from him self.Unless you want to have another contradiction on your hands.. WJ..You are forcing scripures to say what they dont mean.In John 16:13-15 1 Corinthians 2:12-16   12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord(THE FATHER), that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. Ephesians 1:15-23     15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

U

Do you see any of my own words in my post?

I am just quoting the scriptures.

Why do you accuse me of forcing scriptures!!!

[hope2u]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 10 2007,05:03)

Trinity Verses Direct statements of one God and three persons:   (pretty clear support of Trinity) -Direct statements of the oneness of God:        Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc. -no other gods:Isaiah  44:6 -Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God:           Matthew 28:19 -Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son:                              John 10:30 -Direct statements of the deity of the Son:    John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18 -Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2 John 14:26 Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit: (tend to support the Trinity) -Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit:      Acts 5:4-5     2 Corinthians 3:17 -Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son:      John 17:10      John 16:15       John 5:18        John 5:19        John 5:21        John 5:23 -Shared glory between the Father and the Son:      John 17:5 cf.  Isaiah 42:8 -Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life:  Acts 5:15 -omniscience:   John 16:30   John 21:17    -power and wisdom of God:  1 Cor 1:24 -Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God:          Mark 1:24 cf.  Isaiah 1:4 -First and Last:         Rev 1:17, 22:13 cf.  Isaiah 44:6 -Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:15          cf. Psalm 136:3          cf.  Deut. 10:17 -King of Kings:  Rev. 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:16 -Saviour:     Titus 2:13                      cf.  Isaiah 43:11           -Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son:        John 5:26 -Use of the divine Name by the Son:        John 8:58 -for the Son:Romans 10:13 -Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of the Father: John 16:27-28      John 16:30 -Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son:      John 14:11      John 17:21      John 17:23 -Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15 -(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son:      Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7 Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25 -every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day:   Philippians 2:10-11      cf.  Isaiah 45:23 -the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus:           Colossians 2:9 -Jesus existed in the form of God:         Philippians 2:6 Allusions and Hints to the Trinity: (in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity) -Allusions to the Son’s deity:  Matthew 1:23 -Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father:           Matthew 11:27       John 1:18 -Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God:   1 Cor 2:11 -Jesus will be great     Luke 1:32 -Jesus used interchangeably with God:     Luke 8:39 -the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh:                Genesis 1:27, 2:24 -woman out of man and same flesh as man:             Genesis 2:23 Middle Ground: (could go either way) -the Son of God:  God of God, or creation/mode of God?          Matthew 16:16 -firstborn of creation:  as creator or creation?        Colossians 1:15 -image of God:  because He’s God?       Colossians 1:15 Apparent polytheism   (tend to show multiple gods) -multiple gods?        Psalm 82 Apparent Contradictions   (pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity) -The Father greater than the Son:      John 16:28 -The Son not omniscient?                   Mark 13:32 -The Father the only true God:        John 17:3        1 Cor 8:6 Ephesians 4:6 -God the head of Christ:      1 Cor 11:3 -Son will be subject to the Father:    1 Cor 15:28

Let me start with Strong’s Concordance explanation of God (eloheem).
Eloheem is (gods) in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
And this is Strong’s Concordance explanation of LORD (YHVH).
From H1961; (the) self existent or eternal; Jehovah (I prefer Yahavah) Jewish national name of God.

God’s name, YHVH, was actually given to Moses in Exodus 6:2,3– And Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him, “I (am) YHVH;I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shadai, but by my name, YHVH,I was not known to them.”

In Psalm 119 each chapter is headed by a letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Each of the letters of YHVH came from ancient pictographs. Y is the Hebrew yod or yud and the pictograph is a simple line drawing of an open hand. H is the Hebrew hey and the pictograph is a stick person kneeled with upraised hands. The V is the Hebrew vav and the pictograph is a circle representing a slave hook or ring. Get the picture of the meaning of YHVH?

Y is the Righteousness of God (hand of God)–Psalms 119:73-80; Ezekiel 20:33-38
H is to Humble yourselves before God (stick person with upraised hands)–Psalms 119:33-40;Romans 1:16-19
V is the command to Serve the Lord (slave ring)–Psalms 119:41-48; Amos 4:2
H is Humble yourselves before God (hand of God)–Nehemiah 8:6; 1Kings 8:54

We know that the Hebrew people, a.k.a. Israel, were not polytheists. They lived in the middle of nations around them that were polytheists. Those nations were constantly trying to impose their polytheist beliefs onto Israel. Israel, being a theist (one God) nation, was constantly warned by God through His prophets to remember that He is the one and only God, ergo, your very first reference: Deut. 6:4 (KJV)—4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) is one LORD (YHVH): 5 And thou shalt love the LORD (YHVH) thy God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

The way I see it is that the spirit of antichrist that possessed the polytheistic nations of old is still at work and trying to make one self existent, eternal, mighty, exceedingly great God into three. Can’t be done according to what the Bible says. Anyone who chooses to believe that eloheem in reference to YHVH means more than one is being deceived.

One more thought to share and this one is based partly on logic. Gen 1:26—‘And God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

Why YHVH gave it to Moses to write, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” is a mystery and probably should remain a mystery until we have an absolute answer. In the mean time we know that we are m
ade in His image, a spirit being with one spirit (soul and spirit being the same). The point is that YHVH has one spirit and man was made to have one spirit. To say that the Holy Spirit is a separate spirit apart from YHVH with all the power of YHVH is to say our God is polytheistic when the truth is that He is one mighty, self existent, eternal, exceedingly great God and Jesus is His Son. Jesus is the son of God and born a sinless man and is not self existent. We receive the power of YHVH's spirit through His son because he is the sinless son of God, who paid the price on the cross for the sin of all mankind from Adam. If God hasn’t stated an answer to our questions in be Bible then it should be left alone to be answered by him when we see him. He didn't give us the date of Jesus' birth either, so man created a date that happens to be the same birthdate as Antiochus IV of Syria who desecrated the altar in the temple with pig's blood and tried to Helenize Israel. I for one don't appreciate the association for any reason, even if it may have been done to counter the influence of what Antiochus IV did before Christ.
usourour

[olive]

Blessings Ken:

Quote

When I was a “babe” in Christ and realized who I was I used to play with insects commanding them to get out the way or to come close. I'm talking warsp that could sting me! But I had faith that I was above those insects. Sadly over the years of religion, I began to doubt “only Jesus could do that”. The Lord is trying to re-kindle that fire I once had.

ASKING IN THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, YAHUSHA SEND KEN THE SPIRIT TO UPLIFT HIM, SO WHEN THEY SEE HIM, THEY SEE YOU, THAT HIS FIRE NEVER BURNS LOW, SO ALL MAY SEE YOUR YOUR GLORY THROUGH THE FIRE YOU GIVE HIM. WHOOAA, PRAISE YAH, THANK YOU YAHUSHA. MOVE THOSE MOUNTIANS !!!!!!!!! FAN HIS FLAME !!!!!!!!!11

much love and peace

[hope2u]

quote: We receive the power of YHVH's spirit through His son because he is the sinless son of God, who paid the price on the cross for the sin of all mankind from Adam.

Please understand that only those who receive the truth of what Christ did on the cross and accept Him as their Lord and Savior are washed of the sin of Adam by the born-again experience in the power of the Holy Spirit given to believers to reprove and teach the Body of Christ in preparation for the return of His Son when he will resurrect the dead in Christ and those who are still alive and faithful to take them out before he delivers the wrath of God.

[olive]

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 16 2007,18:13)

Blessings GW,

It is written,
Pro 15:1 A soft answer turneth back fury, And a grievous word raiseth up anger.

Gal 6:2 of one another the burdens bear ye, and so fill up the law of the Christ,

I empathize w/ your fustration.

They only advise I can offer, is to speak scriptures all day. If someone ask you how your day is, it is the day YAH has made, I will rejoice in it…………there is not one question, not one answer, that scripture cannot be used.

At times, shouting the word helps, singing praises, even if your shouting is singing, I don't think he worries what key we are in as long as we know he is the key.

Thank you for being open w/ me, a blessing you have sent.

Luk 12:32 `Fear not, little flock, because your Father did delight to give you the reign;

much love and peace

[olive]

Quote

And I think that God wanted for the children to know Him.

Mat 18:4-6  whoever then may humble himself as this child, he is the greater in the reign of the heavens.
`And he who may receive one such child in my name, doth receive me,
and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

[NickHassan]

HiH2u,
Repentance and a plea for forgiveness expressed in submission to water baptism does bring the inner washing preparaing our vessel to hold the treasure of the Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi guest,
You say
“The Son of man according to the scripture is Yahweh”
So God is a man?

What of Jb 25
“4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?”

Does this refer to our God? Nonsense.

[Tim2]

Hope2u,

Quote

The way I see it is that the spirit of antichrist that possessed the polytheistic nations of old is still at work and trying to make one self existent, eternal, mighty, exceedingly great God into three. Can’t be done according to what the Bible says. Anyone who chooses to believe that eloheem in reference to YHVH means more than one is being deceived.

I think it's important that we know what we're disagreeing about. I am on this forum to advocate for the ecumenical creeds, located here, http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html Nowhere in any of these creeds does it say “God is three” or “YHVH is more than one.” Rather, they all affirm that there is one God, and only one God.

Quote

To say that the Holy Spirit is a separate spirit apart from YHVH with all the power of YHVH is to say our God is polytheistic when the truth is that He is one mighty, self existent, eternal, exceedingly great God and Jesus is His Son.

I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is not a separate Spirit apart from YHVH. The creeds affirm that the Holy Spirit is God, YHVH.

So do you disagree with anything in the ecumenical creeds?

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi tim2,
None of the creeds were written by anointed men of God.
Why follow deceived men?

[gwhelchel]

There are many verses that clearly teach that Jesus is God and even more that teach that there is only ONE God. If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then you have two Gods or two persons who are somehow one God. Stand back and look at a mere glimpse of the whole story. I know, I know…you will all scream and yell that the label of this doctrine is not written in the Bible…you are right. Now, can you just get over it for one moment and answer the dilemma that is written in the Bible instead of side-stepping, dismissing it, and never addressing it? What do you fear so much that you can’t even look at it? I doubt that it is possible but please try, even for a moment, to look beyond the label and look at the substance. Nick, you are right, no one in their right mind would believe what you think the doctrine of the trinity teaches. You, however, have a very twisted and warped understanding of this doctrine; and since you listen with your fingers in your ears and look with your hand over your eyes, that will never change. But, there are some out there who are willing to listen and hear and challenge themselves to look and show me my error; not by name-calling but by standing scripture-to-scripture with me. Nick, I too would hate what you think is this doctrine. You are wrong and do not understand what it teaches. Answer the questions don’t just throw out inane comments that sound more like “your Momma wear combat boots”. These are only some examples of the verses that support that Jesus is God (others tell us that the Father is God) and that there is only one God.

Isa. 43:10 “You are My witnesses’’, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me.”

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior….”

Jn. 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD.”

Mt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us”. (actually the Greek says “the God with us”).

Jn. 20:28 “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (actually the Greek says, “the Lord of me and the God of me”).

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior…”

Tit. 1:3-4 “…according to the commandment of God our Savior…and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Tit. 2:13 “…and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.”

Tit. 3:4-6 “But when the kindness of God our Savior…through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

Isa. 41:4 “Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.” Compare this verse with Rev. 1:17 “And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me saying, ‘Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Rev. 1:7-8 “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’”

Heb. 1:8 “But of the Son He says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions.”

Jn. 10:33-36 “The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God…do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the word, ‘You are blaspheming, because I said, “I am the Son of God.’”

Mk. 14:61-64 “…’Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, ‘What further need do we have of witnesses? ‘You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?’ And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.” To claim to be the Son of God was to claim to be God. The Jews understood this and picked up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy.

Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.”

Rev. 19:16 “And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Isa. 44:6-7 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD OF HOSTS; I am the first and I am the last; and there is no God besides Me. And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare…”

Jn. 1:48-49 “Nathanael said to Him, “How do you know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.’ Nathanael answered Him, ‘Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.’”

Isa. 44:8 “…Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.”

Isa. 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.”

Col. 1:16 “For by Him all things were created, both in the havens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Isa. 40:27 “Why do you say, O Jacob, and assert, O Israel, My way is hidden from the LORD, and the justice due me escapes the notice of my God?’ Do you not know? Have you not heart? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.”

Isa. 42:5 “Thus says God the LORD, who created the havens and stretched them out…”

Isa 45:18 “For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it. He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), I am the LORD, and there is none else.”

Isa. 45:21-22 “…And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me…For I am God, and there is no other.”

Isa. 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. A am the LORD, and there is no other. The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity. I am the LORD who does all these.”

Isa. 45:23 “…That to Me every knee will hob, every tongue will swear allegiance…”

Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.”

Isa. 46:9 “Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.”

Isa. 48:12-13 “…I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens…”

[NickHassan]

Hi GW,
God is the Father of Jesus.
Jesus said so and we should believe him rather than you surely?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 16 2007,22:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,11:56) I guess you missed my point. I said no one has to understand the trinity to accept Jesus in their heart. You are correct WorshippingJesus, I did miss that point, and that is a perfect statement. I apologize. Many times you can say something that is profoundly true and it gets lost in all of the intellectualizing. Tim

Tim

No problem friend. I have been guilty of this many of times I am sure.

Blessings!

[NickHassan]

Hi GW,
You quote.
Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.”
You should walk with Paul.
He knew who his Lord is and Who his God is.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,17:21)

Hi tim2, None of the creeds were written by anointed men of God. Why follow deceived men?

Hi Nick,

I too do not follow creeds, however, does the fact that we have not explicitly been told whether or not these men were anointed men of God, mean that they were not?

Were the men that decided on the canon anointed men of God?

Tim

[Not3in1]

GW,
I'm curious, did you look at the 100 scriptures that t8 supplied? Have you had a chance to answer those?

My point is that each “side” has scriptures that seem to point to their slant on what they believe God's Word teaches. My sincere question to Isaiah and others has been – how do you know who's right? Each side gives ample evidence. Each side is persuasive in their arguments. I wonder, what makes you so sure that YOU have the correct teaching? Have you ever wondered if you could be wrong on the incarnation, for instance?

Most who are here have walked with God for many years – decades! Have we not all looked at these scriptures before and heard the very same arguments? We have. It all boils down to your view coming into these scriptures that determines if you believe in a triune God or a God who is not triune in nature.

Who has the truth?

[Not3in1]

Isa. 43:10 “You are My witnesses’’, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me.”

1. A couple of thoughts here: God says not only are we to believe him, but we are to understand who he is (that is to say, we can understand him). Jesus was formed in the womb – therefore according to this scripture, he cannot be God. When we read this scripture, one would naturally assume that if Jesus was born, he was formed in the womb, and so this scripture teaches that Jesus cannot be God because he was formed and given birth (a beginning).

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior….”

1. Jesus is our Savior *through* Jesus. Remember that God is reconciling himself and us *through* Jesus. This is a pretty clear concept. One would have to already have a presumption that God is triune for you to read anything into this. Further, to even use this scripture to piece together with others to prove your presumption.

Jn. 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD.”

1. Again, you must come into this passage with a presumption that the “Word” is for one; meant to be capitalized, for two; that is is the person Jesus.

2. There are also other ways to understand this passage that are consistent with the whole tenor of scripture. Others have given their ideas on this, and I have shared mine on a few ocassions. Some thoughts: in what way was the word God? If the word is Jesus, and Jesus is God's begotten Son, can it not be a logical idea that Jesus was in God as his seed? I offer for example:

“In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.”

Using my son and his Dad as examples, is it not a theory that Nathan was indeed “with” Dan and “was” Dan before he was born and received his own name and identity, as did the word/Jesus? Can you see how this idea can shape and frame scripture as much as your idea that Jesus is the second person of a triune God that somehow was incarnated? Which idea/theory sounds more natural/logical, and which one sounds more philisophical?

Mt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us”. (actually the Greek says “the God with us”).

1. God IS with us through his Son. Again, reconciling the world to himself through Jesus. Is not Dan with me when Nathan is with me? Don't we say of our sons when their father's pass that they “live on through the son.” Cannot God be present in the world through his Son? God is not a man.

Jn. 20:28 “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (actually the Greek says, “the Lord of me and the God of me”).

1. I know some will find this lame, however, I still say that regarding Thomas – we were not there when he said these words! We do not know in what manner he said this sentence. We do not know if he used body language or not. It is reasonable to wonder about this. For example: He sees Jesus and falls to his knees, he is over-joyed to see his Teacher again. He reaches his hands towards him and says, “My Lord!” and then raises his hands towards heaven in appreciatation to God for bringing his friend and Master back, and says, “….and my God!” It is possible. Just as likely as a disciple calling Jesus God when no other had done it before and didn't after that.

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior…”

1. Again, your point being that God is our Savior and so Jesus must be God because he is *also* our savior. But God is saving us through his Son. This is the whole point and tenor of scripture. Not that Jesus is this one and only God. But that Jesus is his Son who was sent into the world so that God could reconcile us. Again, God is not a man.

Tit. 1:3-4 “…according to the commandment of God our Savior…and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

1. There are many scriptures you could quote that say God and Jesus are our Savior. The term “Savior” is used of many people in the Bible. Translators use “deliverer” and other terms to describe the same. At any rate, it makes perfect sense that they are *both* called Savior because God is the author of the plan of salvation and Jesus is the agent who carried out God's plan.

Tit. 2:13 “…and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.”

1. Check various versions of the Bible and you will see that this verse can be used to prove Jesus is God or to prove it does not. Interesting, huh? how different translator's will see the same verse differently. For me, when that happens, I take it off the list as “proof.”

Isa. 41:4 “Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.” Compare this verse with Rev. 1:17 “And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me saying, ‘Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

1. When the comparison is made, if you stick with the scriptural truth that God is not a man, and God cannot die, you have to wonder if this is speaking of a different person altogether? And you also have to wonder if these persons are the “first and last” of the same creation? Again, these are other theories to these scriptures. What makes you think that you have the only truth? Fair question.

Rev. 1:7-8 “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’”

1. Intersting note here ——- my KJV does not have these verses hilighted in RED (being the words of Christ). Remember that scriptural truth is that Jesus was pierced and died – God cannot die.

Heb. 1:8 “But of the Son He says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions.”

1. Interesting passage. It may say something different to you, but to me it affirms that Jesus is not co-equal with God. If God annointed him, clearly he is the lesser. Clearly Jesus has a God. Scripture teaches us that Jesus' God is our God. If within the triune God – one refers to the other “person” as their God – you do not have equality.

Jn. 10:33-36 “The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God…do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the word, ‘You are blaspheming, because I said, “I am the Son of God.’”

1. I'm not sure why Trinitarians use this passage to prove that Jesus is God? Jesus REBUKED the Jews, and corrected them. Drawing a line in the sand between what they called “God” in him, and what he referred to as the “Son of God.”

Mk. 14:61-64 “…’Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, ‘What further need do we have of witnesses? ‘You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?’ And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.” To claim to be t
he Son of God was to claim to be God. The Jews understood this and picked up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy

1. Have you done a thorough reading on Jewish customs? I am only beginning my study on this and it's facinating. Understanding the Jewish culture and times will better help us to get a clear picture of what this passage means. The Jews did not believe Jesus was God. They didn't even believe he was the Messiah. Further, being a Son of God was as good as saying he was God according to their customs…..but that in no way means that it is a fact. They were not stoning him because Jesus was claiming to be God (as he had already corrected them), he was claiming something much more threatening to them – to be the Son of God. As such, Jesus would have authority over THEM and put them out of business, so to speak. Anyway, facinating subject.

Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.”

1. I do confess that Jesus Christ is “Lord” to the glory of God the Father. “Lord” – God has made him “Lord.” Not “LORD.”

2. If this really means what you are purposing, the scripture would be nonsense. It would read: “….that Jesus Christ is God to the glory of God the Father.” Two God's? Hm? That instruction would confuse the most devout early Christian. I know it would any modern Christian I know – including me!

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Well, GW, that's all I have time for now, I'm meeting a friend for lunch. But I wanted to at least attempt to give you my ideas and understanding of scripture. I'm not a scholar, by any stretch of the imagination. I attend the Bible College of the Kitchen Table, and will probably never graduate. But I love God, and I love his Son. I seek after God daily. Please do not undermine other's devotion to the truth. How can you possibly know our personal stories or the journey that has led us here? Even if your doctrine is attacked – that doesn't mean we are listening with our ears covered. It just means that we do not agree with you. I've learned that not everyone will agree with me. And that is OK. God calls, he chooses, he brings his children in. He loves us all.

[Not3in1]

The creeds affirm that the Holy Spirit is God, YHVH
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I guess I agree with your creed then! But I'm curious……does your creed affirm that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity? If so, than I do not agree. Thanks.

[Tim2]

That exact language isn't in the creeds, Not3, but you better have a look at them anyway

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html

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