The Trinity Doctrine

[olive]

Blessings notthreeinone,

Truly, it is hard to stand against the true and living God YAH. His words do not come back void, as did the responses.

Much love to you and yours.

[Worshipping Jesus]

HI

So the logic is, if we cant explain everything about an “Infinite God” and the Creator of all things to a child, then it must not be true that he is “Infinite”.

Is the brain surgeons knowledge not true or valid because a child can not understand it?

One does not have to understand Trinitarian doctrine to be saved! All they have to do is like a little child come to Jesus, oops I mean to God. Isnt that what its all about is leading little children to God.

Yet we introduce them to Jesus. But of course we want them to grow in the grace an knowledge of the “Lord Jesus Christ”.  Dont we?

“Albert Einstein once said “If you can't teach what you know to a six year old, then you don't understand it.”

Then a brain surgen dosnt understand brain surgery, because surely a 6 year old cant understand that.

The scriptures say…

Jn 6:
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 *For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed*.
56 *He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.*
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, *This is an hard saying*; who can hear it?

Would a 6 year old child understand the words of Jesus, that to have life they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

HMM! I dont think so. In fact many of the learned turned back and followed him no more because this was a hard saying.

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, *Doth this offend you*?

66 *From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him*.

Because one dosnt understand or believe the Trinitarian view from the sciptures does not mean it is not so.

Many consider it a “hard saying” and many turn away from it!

Regardless of Peters understanding, he still believed the Lords word, in our case the Scriptures and the Spirit of truth.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? *thou hast the words of eternal life*.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Thomas and John knew who this Monogenes “Unique” Son of God was for later on he writes…

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, *My Lord and my God*.
[29 Jesus saith unto him, *Thomas, because thou hast seen me*, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 *And many other signs* truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But *these are written*, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and *that believing ye might have life through his name*.

Without rebuke or correction by John or Jesus, just 2 verses after Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and God, John writes this was a sign, so that we may believe in this Monogenes “Unique” son of God and that believing we might have life through his name.

Truly Jesus has the words of eternal life because he is truly God, one with the Father and the Spirit!

He is our Lord and God!

[olive]

hey wj,

Correct me if I am wrong, the trinity is the central belief/cornerstone of Universal Christianity, right?

Now, just image if there was no such thing as a trinity. What would you believe?

Await your response.

much love and peace

[Not3in1]

So the logic is, if we cant explain everything about an “Infinite God” and the Creator of all things to a child, then it must not be true that he is “Infinite”.
*************

Great post, WJ.

However, we are not saying that a child should or could understand *everything* about an infinite God. However comma – a child should be able to be introduced to a God that he or she can KNOW. A triune God is not shown in scripture, as you and others have proven. It has to be deduced and pieced together to form the triune God.

John 17:3 has been quoted so many times that I believe Trinitarians are numb to it. But eternal life is in the KNOWING of the one true God. WJ, we must be *able to* know him if we are to love him and invite him in.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You speak with a forked tongue.
You quote scripture as saying.
“And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
then you say
“Truly Jesus has the words of eternal life because he is truly God, one with the Father and the Spirit!”
Which is true?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (olive @ May 16 2007,08:50)

hey wj, Correct me if I am wrong, the trinity is the central belief/cornerstone of Universal Christianity, right? Now, just image if there was no such thing as a trinity. What would you believe? Await your response. much love and peace

Olive

Good question.

Acts chapter 17:
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

Hear we see the Apostle Paul preaching “Jesus” to an idolatrous city named Athens, which was steeped in Polytheism and Paganism

Yet Just by preaching Jesus they thought he was speaking of strange Gods.

I believe if you go in the remote jungles of the world where they have not heard the Gospel and preach  Jesus unto them, telling them to repent and call on the name of Jesus to be saved, and leave them with a bible, they would be praying to Jesus and worshipping him and soon to find out that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is One God!

I had no religious upbringing or knowledge of God or a trinity. I cant even remember hearing anything about Jesus until I got saved.
When I got saved I heard the name of Jesus and called out to him and asked him to come into my heart and forgive my sins. I didn’t have to think about the trinity, at that moment Jesus was my Lord and God, and still is!

Its interesting to me how that the vast majority of conversions to Jesus is through Trinitarian churches. If this doctrine is so hellish why would this movement of God continue to grow throughout the world and people coming to Christ by the groves.

Does numbers matter to God? You bet ya!

He said…

Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that *I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh*; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions

Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

The feast of Passover has been fulfilled in Christ death the feast of Pentecost is fulfilled in the outpouring of his Spirit, and we are now moving into the last feast, the feast of tabernacles which is the feast of harvest and fullness. The greatest move of the Spirit through the earth is coming and every eye shall see it.

For the Glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Blessings

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,08:10)

“Albert Einstein once said “If you can't teach what you know to a six year old, then you don't understand it.” Then a brain surgen dosnt understand brain surgery, because surely a 6 year old cant understand that.

You missed the point WorshippingJesus. What Albert Einstein was saying was if you don’t know your subject well enough to simplify it so that a six year old child could understand it, then you don’t understand it..
Albert would not have explained E+MC2 by saying that Energy is equal to the mass of an object multiplied times the speed of light squared,
to a six year old. But he could say hey Johnny, the energy in that softball can be found
by multiplying how big it is times a great big number.
And you know what, that great big number that you multiply it by will get even bigger and bigger if the ball is bigger.

The surgeon would not explain the surgery to the child. He would say that because I know how to, I am going
to go fix what is broken in that brain. He does not need to teach the child how to be a surgeon in order to explain what he is going to do. God wanted for us to know who He is and that He created the universe. He did not want to teach us how to create it ourselves.

No one seems to know the subject of the trinity well enough to even explain it to other adults, let alone children. I have heard at least four different definitions of the trinity from people on this forum who claim to be Trinitarians.

On the other hand, a child easily understands the concept
that God created everything and
is in charge of everything, and he sent His only son Jesus so that we could know about Him. And then because Jesus loved His Father God so much. And because He also loved me and you so much. Jesus was willing to die to save us from some very bad things.

Now that is easy for a child to understand. The mystical business of a trinity can not be grasped by most adults, let alone children. And I think that God wanted for the children to know Him.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 16 2007,11:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,08:10) “Albert Einstein once said “If you can't teach what you know to a six year old, then you don't understand it.” Then a brain surgen dosnt understand brain surgery, because surely a 6 year old cant understand that. You missed the point WorshippingJesus. What Albert Einstein was saying was if you don’t know your subject well enough to simplify it so that a six year old child could understand it, then you don’t understand it.. Albert would not have explained E+MC2 by saying that Energy is equal to the mass of an object multiplied times the speed of light squared, to a six year old. But he could say hey Johnny, the energy in that softball can be found by multiplying how big it is times a great big number. And you know what, that great big number that you multiply it by will get even bigger and bigger if the ball is bigger. The surgeon would not explain the surgery to the child. He would say that because I know how to, I am going to go fix what is broken in that brain. He does not need to teach the child how to be a surgeon in order to explain what he is going to do. God wanted for us to know who He is and that He created the universe. He did not want to teach us how to create it ourselves. No one seems to know the subject of the trinity well enough to even explain it to other adults, let alone children. I have heard at least four different definitions of the trinity from people on this forum who claim to be Trinitarians. On the other hand, a child easily understands the concept that God created everything and is in charge of everything, and he sent His only son Jesus so that we could know about Him. And then because Jesus loved His Father God so much. And because He also loved me and you so much. Jesus was willing to die to save us from some very bad things. Now that is easy for a child to understand. The mystical business of a trinity can not be grasped by most adults, let alone children. And I think that God wanted for the children to know Him. Tim

Tim

I guess you missed my point.

I said no one has to understand the trinity to accept Jesus in their heart.

A little child can do that. My point was that the trinity deals with the complex nature of God.

But it can also be explained in simple terms.

A little child could understand that The Father, and Son and the Holy Spirit is God.

Just like Mother Father and child is human!

And as far as differences between Trinitarians, hehe, have you compared the differences with the Anti- Trinitarians.

Trinitarians I think have far more unity in our beliefs.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“A little child could understand that The Father, and Son and the Holy Spirit is God.

Just like Mother Father and child is human!”

So to you the Spirit of God is the offspring of the unity between the Father and the Son?
Or are you saying that the Son is OF GOD but not to the degree that he was an ACTUAL son?
Or are there three, including God's own Spirit, of divine nature but not the same being?

[Tim2]

Hey Olive,

Good to hear from you.

I would say, first of all, that I don't think our approach to Scripture should be, “I'll read it on my own and deduce my own conclusions, trusting that the Holy Spirit will lead me to the truth.” Rather, we are to read the Bible on our own, and trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth, but also study the Bible and learn in fellowship with other Christians. This is clear in Ephesians 4. The knowledge of the Son of God in 4:13, is preceded by unity of faith, the building up of the body of Christ, the equipping of the saints, and the giving of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers. This way we won't be children, tossed about by every wind of doctrine; but speaking the truth to each other in love, we will grow into Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted by every joint, according to the work of each individual part, causes the growth of the body, building itself up in love. So our knowledge of God is a communal endeavor, that must be done in Christian fellowship. The Trinity has been the confessed belief of millions upon millions of Christians for 1700 years. This is perhaps the only area in which Paul's commandment for the church to speak the same thing (1 Corinthians 1:10) has been fulfilled.

As for writing the Trinity doctrine for a child to understand, there is no better way, for a child or anyone, than the common confession of the church for the past 1700 years, in the ecumenical creeds, listed here: http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html If you object to anything in these creeds, please go to any Christian church in your neighborhood and ask the pastor about them. In my short time on this website, no one has undermined one point of doctrine in these creeds, although they have often attacked other misconceptions of the Trinity not stated in these creeds.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
What about the teaching of Christ and the apostles in the FIRST 300 years?
Scarcely relevant in view of these later discoveries?

[gwhelchel]

You speak truth Olive…unfortunately you are speaking it to many who do not have ears to hear or eyes to see. They will freak at the word “Trinity” as if it has some magical power to create evil instead of be merely the label given to what the Scriptures clearly teach. Use a theological term like “theology” and they will think you are trying to shove something down their throats instead of using a word that merely means the study of God. They pride themselves in what they think is the study of God, however, the moment you use a name to describe their actions, they are suspect, fearful, and think it's some evil plot to shove a doctrine down their throats. In normal society this is called paranoia.

You will find that many have their opinions and are so closed minded that they totally refuse to listen to facts, verses, proof, or simple logic. They will not offer any proof, they will not answer questions, they will totally refuse to engage by honestly answering your questions, they will merely call you names, insult you, taunt you, or say that what you teach is evil…without backing up their words or addressing ANY of the issues.

Be prepared and forewarned. You are about to be attacked and no matter how convincing your arguments, your logic, the many many verses you cite, they will not read them, they will not hear them, their minds are totally and completely closed. They, like Pharaoh, have hardened their hearts so completely that were Jesus to appear to them tonight and tell them that He is Almighty God, they would deny Him. Were the Father to shake them to their core and tell them to wake up, they would refuse to listen. It is sad but very true.

Good luck, I wish you well, I am tired of casting pearls before the willfully deaf and blind. There are a few really good people on this website from whom you can learn truth and who are really open and encouraging. They have long been in the battle and are, I do not doubt, weary. Tim2 and Worshipping Jesus are awesome. Follow their lead, read what they have to say, as they know and speak the Truth.

“In my short time on this website, no one has undermined one point of doctrine in these creeds, although they have often attacked other misconceptions of the Trinity not stated in these creeds.” THIS IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT. DO NOT EXPECT MOST OF THEM TO EVER LOOK AT ANYTHING YOU PRESENT, ANSWER ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS, OR RESPOND TO ANYTHING YOU SAY. INSTEAD EXPECT THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK, USING THEIR MISCONCEPTIONS AND BIAS OF THE TRINITY, REFUSE TO ENGAGE, LISTEN, OR EVEN HONESTLY LOOK AT WHAT THEY BELIEVE. LIKE PHARAOH, I BELIEVE THIS IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE FOR MANY OF THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SO TOTALLY CLOSED-MINDED TO THE TRUTH. IN THEIR SELF PRIDE AND ARROGANCE, THEY NO LONGER CAN LISTEN AND THEIR HEARTS ARE TOO HARD TO CHANGE. THEY WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS OR EVER REALLY ENGAGE IN ANY REAL DISCUSSION OF SCRIPTURE…WITH A FEW, VERY FEW, EXCEPTIONS. I WISH THIS WAS NOT THE CASE…BUT I BELIEVE THAT IT IS. SO, EXPECT THAT THEY WILL SCREAM AND YELL THAT YOU HAVE USED THE WICKED AND EVIL WORD “TRINITY”.

GOOD LUCK…YOU'LL NEED IT!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 16 2007,09:08)

So the logic is, if we cant explain everything about an “Infinite God” and the Creator of all things to a child, then it must not be true that he is “Infinite”. ************* Great post, WJ. However, we are not saying that a child should or could understand *everything* about an infinite God.  However comma – a child should be able to be introduced to a God that he or she can KNOW.  A triune God is not shown in scripture, as you and others have proven.  It has to be deduced and pieced together to form the triune God.   John 17:3 has been quoted so many times that I believe Trinitarians are numb to it.  But eternal life is in the KNOWING of the one true God.  WJ, we must be *able to* know him if we are to love him and invite him in.

Not3

You say…

Quote

John 17:3 has been quoted so many times that I believe Trinitarians are numb to it.  But eternal life is in the KNOWING of the one true God.  WJ, we must be *able to* know him if we are to love him and invite him in.

Who are you inviting in? Is it the Father or the Son? Or how about the Holy Spirit?

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might *know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent.

Notice John 17:3 says Eternal life is knowing the Father and the Son.

Jesus said…

Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, *If a man love me, he will keep my words*: and my Father will love him, and *we will come unto him, and make our abode with him*.

Notice he says we will come unto him and dwell with him!

Rev 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, *I will come in to him*, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We cant know the Father apart from knowing the Son!

We cant come unto the Father apart from the Son!

We cant honour the Father without honoring the Son!

If we have the Son we have the Father also!

How is this?

God is a jealous God, and Jesus says we are to worship the Lord our God and him only shall we serve.

You can not serve two masters.

How is it that people call Jesus Lord and master and yet say the Father is exclusively their God?

What about the first and second commandments as GW has so elloquently brought up?

These are valid questions are they not?

[Tim2]

I'm not on my own computer, so I don't have my saved list of the most updated version of the Trinity verses, and I don't feel like searching for, but here is one to add to it: John 17:19, “I sanctify Myself.”

Now can anyone besides God sanctify? I don't think so. But Jesus sanctifies Himself. Jesus is God.

Tim

[Tim2]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2007,18:53)

HiTim2, Of course. The Spirit of God was given to Jesus. God gives His gifts without repentance. So Christ sends the Spirit of Christ to unite us to him and to God from whom the Spirit proceeds.

Nick,

The Spirit is also given to believers, but we don't have the authority to “send” it. How is that Jesus has the authority to send God?

And how is it that the Spirit takes of His? John 16:15?

Tim

[Not3in1]

WJ,

Somehow I just knew you were going to say something like this. That you would pick that one sentence and comment on it. We know each other so well, don't we?

Well, you are correct in saying that we cannot have the Father without having the Son. Indeed, we know GOD because of Jesus. God sent the spirit of his Son to us so that we, too, can call him “Abba Father.” We agree thus far.

Jesus prayed that the disciples (and you and me) could be “one” with the Father as he was “one” with the Father. I believe this to not mean literally, because how could we be one person with God? We are connected, however, through this spirit that God gives us AND his Son….. That is certainly how they “both” can come in and dwell with us.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 16 2007,18:28)

I'm not on my own computer, so I don't have my saved list of the most updated version of the Trinity verses, and I don't feel like searching for, but here is one to add to it:  John 17:19, “I sanctify Myself.” Now can anyone besides God sanctify?  I don't think so.  But Jesus sanctifies Himself.  Jesus is God. Tim

Jn 17:19
And for their sakes *I sanctify myself*, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Good scripture!

[Not3in1]

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 16 2007,18:13)

You speak truth Olive…unfortunately you are speaking it to many who do not have ears to hear or eyes to see.  They will freak at the word “Trinity” as if it has some magical power to create evil instead of be merely the label given to what the Scriptures clearly teach.  Use a theological term like “theology” and they will think you are trying to shove something down their throats instead of using a word that merely means the study of God.  They pride themselves in what they think is the study of God, however, the moment you use a name to describe their actions, they are suspect, fearful, and think it's some evil plot to shove a doctrine down their throats.  In normal society this is called paranoia. You will find that many have their opinions and are so closed minded that they totally refuse to listen to facts, verses, proof, or simple logic.  They will not offer any proof, they will not answer questions, they will totally refuse to engage by honestly answering your questions, they will merely call you names, insult you, taunt you, or say that what you teach is evil…without backing up their words or addressing ANY of the issues. Be prepared and forewarned.  You are about to be attacked and no matter how convincing your arguments, your logic, the many many verses you cite, they will not read them, they will not hear them, their minds are totally and completely closed.  They, like Pharaoh, have hardened their hearts so completely that were Jesus to appear to them tonight and tell them that He is Almighty God, they would deny Him.  Were the Father to shake them to their core and tell them to wake up, they would refuse to listen.  It is sad but very true. Good luck, I wish you well, I am tired of casting pearls before the willfully deaf and blind.  There are a few really good people on this website from whom you can learn truth and who are really open and encouraging.  They have long been in the battle and are, I do not doubt, weary.  Tim2 and Worshipping Jesus are awesome.  Follow their lead, read what they have to say, as they know and speak the Truth. “In my short time on this website, no one has undermined one point of doctrine in these creeds, although they have often attacked other misconceptions of the Trinity not stated in these creeds.”  THIS IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT.  DO NOT EXPECT MOST OF THEM TO EVER LOOK AT ANYTHING YOU PRESENT, ANSWER ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS, OR RESPOND TO ANYTHING YOU SAY.  INSTEAD EXPECT THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK, USING THEIR MISCONCEPTIONS AND BIAS OF THE TRINITY, REFUSE TO ENGAGE, LISTEN, OR EVEN HONESTLY LOOK AT WHAT THEY BELIEVE.  LIKE PHARAOH, I BELIEVE THIS IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE FOR MANY OF THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SO TOTALLY CLOSED-MINDED TO THE TRUTH.  IN THEIR SELF PRIDE AND ARROGANCE, THEY NO LONGER CAN LISTEN AND THEIR HEARTS ARE TOO HARD TO CHANGE.  THEY WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS OR EVER REALLY ENGAGE IN ANY REAL DISCUSSION OF SCRIPTURE…WITH A FEW, VERY FEW, EXCEPTIONS. I WISH THIS WAS NOT THE CASE…BUT I BELIEVE THAT IT IS.  SO, EXPECT THAT THEY WILL SCREAM AND YELL THAT YOU HAVE USED THE WICKED AND EVIL WORD “TRINITY”.   GOOD LUCK…YOU'LL NEED IT!

GW – did you have a bad day today? My goodness. It's not all gloom and doom, is it?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
God firstly established Christ as the head of his church and then His Spirit given to Christ was shared among those who had been joined to that head by rebirth into him of water and the Spirit.

Jn 16
' 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. '

Christ is truth and we must feed on that living bread which is his precious teachings. The Spirit only draws from those biblical words to reveal truth to us so that is how we can tell if we are being taught by the right Teacher, the Spirit of Christ, as that teaching NEVER goes beyond the bible teachings.

So the question must be asked-what is the spirit that teaches trinity?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 16 2007,18:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2007,18:53) HiTim2, Of course. The Spirit of God was given to Jesus. God gives His gifts without repentance. So Christ sends the Spirit of Christ to unite us to him and to God from whom the Spirit proceeds. Nick, The Spirit is also given to believers, but we don't have the authority to “send” it.  How is that Jesus has the authority to send God? And how is it that the Spirit takes of His?  John 16:15? Tim

Jn 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, *I will send him unto you*.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: *for he shall receive of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, *that he shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.

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