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Yes I do believe that they believe in foolishness.
If you say that God is a Trinity, then you have to wear it don't you?
And when you pray to the Trinity God, you should talk to him in plural language. E.g., “How are you all”.
Because your God cannot be a HIM, rather a THEM.
I am not being unreasonable here. Just truthful.
To WJ.
You admit that you worship a plurality of persons as YHWH. The crazy thing here is that you and Isaiah accuse us of being polytheists.
How ironic. You point the finger at us, yet you should be standing in front of the mirror when you point your finger.
Can you see that you just admitted that you worship a plurality of persons? When all along we have been saying that we worship only God the Father as the true God. He is the God of all and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In fact God made Jesus Lord of his creation and God made all things through him.
Dear Charity:
No, I have not read the 700 pages of this thread. Wow! That would take a lot of time. What would I learn by doing this?
How would I make you fight for the truth? How would I make the fight less difficult? Please advise!
Because I have not read 700 pages of previous discussion, I do not know if I have anything new to offer. I do have questions that remain unanswered. I do have a heart that desires truth. I am not here for evil intentions.
I sincerely want to give in whatever and however God allows. Nothing more or less.
So gwhelchel.
Why is it that 100 verses that speak of God do not fit with the Trinity Doctrine that God is 3 persons and one substance?
Hey t8,
It's good to hear from you again. I appreciate you bringing up the “Does God=Trinity in these 100 verses?” test, for it was exactly that line of thinking that led me to abandon the Trinity for 2 years or so. But then I studied the matter again and realized that the doctrine of the ecumenical creeds, and of the Athanasian Creed in particular, does not teach that the word God always and everywhere means the Trinity. Rather, the Athanasian Creed says, “The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet they are not three Gods, but one God.” This is the statement you need to be challenging, t8 and everyone else. Your 100 verses are consistent with the ecumenical creeds because the creeds assert that each of the persons is God. Thus, “one God, the Father” is perfectly consistent with the Athanasian Creed. They both say the same thing!
Now if you deny any of line 15 of the Athanasian Creed, quoted above, that's when you face Scriptures that you contradict, such as “the Word was God,” or “My Lord and my God,” or, “through Whom are all things,” or, “the first and the last,” or “Lord of lords,” or “the Lord is the Spirit,” or, “you have not lied to men, but to God,” or, “the Holy Spirit says … I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.” And many, many more, listed on the Trinity verses forum.
Tim
To gwhelchel.
If Jesus is the son of God, then I should by all accounts be able to read all instances of Christ in scripture and see him as the son of God with no contradiction.
Similarly, if God is triune, then all instances of the true God should be complimentary as seeing him as 3 persons. The problem is that scriptures do not allow for this view.
So what is the conclusion?
Perhaps you should question this doctrine, after all it was added hundreds of years later after the last book in the bible was written and it was enforced by a Roman Emperor with threats of death and persecution.
Does the truth produce such fruit?
You will know them by their fruits as it is written.
History is but another witness as to the destructiveness of this doctrine.
Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,16:27) If the bible was written by Trinitarians, I doubt that 100 verses like these would be in the bible. Instead, you would see language like “May God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit be with you”. But you don't see such language.
t8Then how do you explain John and Thomas and Luke and Peter and Paul and Titus and the writter of the Hebrews calling Jesus God?
The language you speak of was not found because of the prominent practice of polytheism in their day. There would be those who would say the Apostles were speaking of three gods.
t8. Where is it written that the Word is “A” god?
Are you also of the belief that the Word who was God and ceased to be God?
Dear t8:
You jump to conclusions based upon insufficent fact. The Bible was written by men who loved the Father, believed and had faith in the Son, and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Did they use the “magical word trinity”, no.
I am NOT a polythesist!!!!! I do NOT believe that there is more than one God!!!!
Why do you react with such instant and intense anger? If what you believe is truth,m it will stand against anything and everything I can say…and vice versa. I welcome and you seem to fear this engagement…why? God far surpasses the wisdom of Satan.
Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,16:42) So gwhelchel. Why is it that 100 verses that speak of God do not fit with the Trinity Doctrine that God is 3 persons and one substance?
Can I answer tooooooooo …please t8I don't think they have been introduced to the Son of MAN
And the power Invested In the Son OF MANHi Tim2.
You never see scriptures like “May the peace of the Father, the grace of God (as meaning Christ), and the fellowship of the Spirit be with you” do you?
When you see the word God it is the Father, unless it is talking about a god that is not the Most High God.
The word God in scripture is not referring to 3 persons and that is the point. If scripture doesn't do it, then why should we?
EEEEKKKK! I'm really sorry T8: I addressed my last email to you when that was not my intent. Please forgive me. I was NOT referring to you as you and I obviously take the same stand on Scriptural issues.
Dear Charity:
What power do you speak of…?
Where do you stand?Hey t8,
Well that really is the problem -we do see the word God used of the Son and the Holy Spirit! John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 5:4, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1. If the God in these verses is not referring to the Most High God, then you're left with the concludsion that the Son and the Spirit are two lesser gods. Do you believe that?
Tim
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 15 2007,11:48) Dear t8: You jump to conclusions based upon insufficent fact. The Bible was written by men who loved the Father, believed and had faith in the Son, and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Did they use the “magical word trinity”, no.
I am NOT a polythesist!!!!! I do NOT believe that there is more than one God!!!!
Why do you react with such instant and intense anger? If what you believe is truth,m it will stand against anything and everything I can say…and vice versa. I welcome and you seem to fear this engagement…why? God far surpasses the wisdom of Satan.
I can assure you that I am not angry. I am forthright in my communication that is all. I have no anger whatsoever. However I do realise that anger is not sin. But I am just saying that I am not angry.I only challenged you with 100 verses of which I asked you to read some at random to explain how the Trinity could be not contradictory to those scriptures.
It was nothing more than that and I am still yet to here your reply. In my experience most people just start ranting and raving about people and accusing them of this and that instead of giving answers. I see this as hiding behind a smoke screen and this is what the Pharisees did to Christ. The religious spirit when faced with truth will resort to accusations of one's character.
I hope that you can give answers instead of being tempted to go down that path. These forums are designed for questions and answers and if someone doesn't have an answer then I can absolutely respect someone who says “I don't know the answer”. I can respect that because it is an honest answer.
BTW: some of my other posts were not for you but to WJ. I was answering some of his questions and they were not directed at you whatsoever.
Each has a different office and function. Each can be measured separately, each describes the space differently, each has a different function. And, there is only one space and yet there are three dimensions. What is true of one dimension is not always true of the other dimension.
***********************
GW,I've heard this one before. It kinda reminds me of that song on Sesame Street, “Conjuction, junction, what's your function?” Remember that one?
The thing is, if you were to offer this explaination to someone who was sincerely seeking to know God – it would accomplish nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.Examples of clovers, electricity, matter/space, egg, water and so on do NOTHING to feed a God-hungry soul. The Pharisees might have enjoyed the intellectual challenge, but the ones who needed healing would have not understood a word. Who did Jesus give the gospel to? College graduates?
When Peter explained who Jesus was – did he start his speech with, “If you were to hold in your hands an empty box…….” No, he said something like, “Hey guys, listen up! You killed the man Jesus. The one who is our life. What were you thinking?” And those who God called, were cut to the core and repented.
It has to be more about Jesus, and less about being right.
GW, forgive me if I came out of the gate running at you. I really didn't mean to be so quick and cutting. Quite possibly I felt a little intimidated by you and felt the need to point out your pride (it didn't take any pride to point out your pride, by the way).
Have a good week everyone. Let your light shine in the darkness!Goodnight to all. I thank each of you for your contributions. This is a difficult subject and one that impacts our daily lives…daily.
Thank you worshipping Jesus and Thomas 2 for your encouragement. I almost walked away completely without continuing the fight for what is true. I care not that I may be wrong…what harms my heart is that those who think themselves full of the truth, fear to engage…why? Do they fear they they do not really have the truth?
If they have the truth, I can only say, “thank you for sharing”…thank you for standing in the gap against falsehood. Thank you for not running.
A post just happened, I'll read it…but I'm exhausted. I really need to sleep. I'll talk to you all tomorrow. Thank each of you for your openness to God's Word and Truth!!!!!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,11:48) t8. Where is it written that the Word is “A” god?
As far as I know it is not written.John 1:1 doesn't have an article before the last word God.
It doesn't say THE or A from what I understand.
Sometimes translators put in A to complete the thought however. E.g., “One of you is A devil.”
But I don't hold to the teaching that Jesus is a god (John1:1). I believe that his nature is divine (comes from God) but that he is not God in identity. In identity he is the Word of God, the son of God, the Messiah of God, the power and wisdom of God. But he is not the God that he is of.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,16:54) EEEEKKKK! I'm really sorry T8: I addressed my last email to you when that was not my intent. Please forgive me. I was NOT referring to you as you and I obviously take the same stand on Scriptural issues. Dear Charity:
What power do you speak of…?
Where do you stand? HiThese are all from only Matt and Mark
Son Of Man
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of MAN be.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of MAN be.Mat 16:27 For the Son of MAN shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of MAN coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of MAN be risen again from the dead.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of MAN is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of MAN shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
Mar 10:33 [Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Mar 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.charity
Dear t8:
I am too sleepy to answer. You assume things that maybe should not be assumed…Your heart seems pure…and I am drawn to you.
Please give me time. I need to be awake in less than 7 hours…and then deal with a very difficult work schedule that will not bring me back home until very late tomorrow night…around 9:00 pm at the earliest.
So, until tomorrow, I ask you to give me some time…I do not ask for time because I fear to answer. God's Truth fears nothing and can wait.
I'm so tired I can hardly type, Good night. Sleep tight…God will speak to each of us in His way tonight. I pray only that each of us listens to what He is telling each of us.
May He be blessed by our discussions or else, may they end promptly.
In His Word,
GloriaQuote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,11:48) t8. Where is it written that the Word is “A” god?
As far as I know it is not written.John 1:1 doesn't have an article before the last word God.
It doesn't say THE or A from what I understand.
Sometimes translators put in A to complete the thought however. E.g., “One of you is A devil.”
But I don't hold to the teaching that Jesus is a god (John1:1). I believe that his nature is divine (comes from God) but that he is not God in identity. In identity he is the Word of God, the son of God, the Messiah of God, the power and wisdom of God. But he is not the God that he is of.
Hey t8,I understand what you're saying, if you mean that the Son is distinct from the Father. But if He is, as you say, the Word, wisdom, and power of God, doesn't that, as you come close to saying, mean that He has the same nature as the Father? This is what the Nicene Creed is trying to say: that which is of the Father, although not the Father in identity, is of the same substance as the Father. This seems to be what you're getting at, in which case I'm very hopeful.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ May 15 2007,11:55) Hey t8, Well that really is the problem -we do see the word God used of the Son and the Holy Spirit! John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 5:4, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1. If the God in these verses is not referring to the Most High God, then you're left with the concludsion that the Son and the Spirit are two lesser gods. Do you believe that?
Tim
Hi Tim2.Jesus is not the Most High God. The word theos and elohim refer to more than just YHWH. This can be plainly seen in scripture.
Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word 'theos'.
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judgesMen/Judges
E.g., John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'Elohim is a popular word in the Old Testament that is translated as God/god. It is not always in reference to the Most High.
False gods
Exodus 20:23
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.Men/Judges
Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'Angels
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!These scriptures show us that the word 'God' is actually a term and is not always used to describe the Most High God, rather it is a term that can apply to many types of authority.
It is very important to read each verse in its correct context e.g., The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age. In other words the type of God that is being referred to is determined by the adjective or context of the sentence. It is incorrect to read the word 'God' as the Most High God in every case. In fact the very term 'Most High God' leads us to conclude that there must be lesser gods.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Jesus is not the one God and Father of all. He is the one Lord who was made Lord by God.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
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