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Hmmmm…it seems that death may be being interrupted as a cessation of being or existence. Death, Scripturally, is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Eternal death is the separation of the spirit from God eternally. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were told by God that they would die that day…yet they survived physically…and died spiritually. Eph. 2:1ff teaches that we are all, as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, born spiritually dead…separated from God. It is not until we are born again that we become alive spiritually.
Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,15:11) To gwhelchel . Hello and welcome.
I want to challenge you regarding your Trinity belief.
Here is a link to 100 scriptures that mention the word “God”.
Now if the Trinity is a true belief, then you should by all accounts be confident enough to translate the word “God” in these scriptures for the word “Trinity (Father, Son, & Spirit”.However what you will find in practice is that the word Trinity violates all 100 verses (which is just the tip of the iceberg). Of course you don't have to read all 100 verses, but maybe give 10 verses at random a go.
If you agree with the result after doing this, that indeed the word “God” when replaced with the word “Trinity” certainly does break these scriptures, than ask yourself why you believe that doctrine if that is the outcome.
Before you start, I ask you to be honest and see what the implications are. For no good can come of a lie and we must be built up in love and truth in Christ.
Here are the 100 scriptures:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
AH yes the ole magic trick again.Lets see, we will replace a singular noun “God” with a Plural Noun “Trinity”, yes that will prove that Jesus is not God and the Trinity dosnt exist.
Folly and sleight of the hand for the imature of which I am sure that GW would not fall for.
LOL.
Lets see. Lets take a singular noun and replace it with another singular noun and see if that would even work.
Singular noun 1 “Father”, singular noun 2 “God”.
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the “Father” and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:Eph 4:6
One “Father” and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.Giving thanks always for all things unto “Father” and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
What do you know we can read into the scriptures what we want.
This is such a poor example. I cant believe you even try this.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,15:33) Hmmmm…it seems that death may be being interrupted as a cessation of being or existence. Death, Scripturally, is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Eternal death is the separation of the spirit from God eternally. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were told by God that they would die that day…yet they survived physically…and died spiritually. Eph. 2:1ff teaches that we are all, as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, born spiritually dead…separated from God. It is not until we are born again that we become alive spiritually.
Hi gw,
Adam died within a scriptural day
Ps 90
4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.Again we have people coming here promoting God as triune instead of being one as the Hebrews believed. They were God's people thousands of years before the Gentiles were invited.
I think that the persecution of Jews by Christians over the centuries has lead Gentile Christians to embrace Gentile philosophies because of the ousting of Jewish believers who knew that God is one.
They are the natural branches and they will be blessed when they can say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.
But we will be blessed when we can say “the Lord God is one God”. We will also be blessed when we can embrace Jewish Christians and the Jews in general. For they know that YHWH is one.
It is together that we can know the full truth. They can show us the Law and the commandments and what that means, and we can show them grace from God.
Christians lack understanding of the scriptures that the First Century Church had, (the OT). The Jews lack understanding of the grace of God and who their messiah is.
We need each other.
I encourage Christians to throw away that which is offensive and keep to that which is true. This way we can aptly demonstrate to the Jews the grace of God and to that end, they may become jealous and want what we have.
But those who preach doctrines of men only continue to drive the wedge between Jew and Gentile. If the Jews believed that Jesus was their Messiah, that would result in 2 witnesses saying the same thing. This would be a powerful witness to the world.
As it stands now, our adversary wants Christians to continue promoting untrue doctrines that were devised centuries after Paul and Christ left this world. He desires this because it will deter many from embracing Christ as the Messiah and keep both Jew and Gentile from agreeing.
This situation is very messy, but I trust that God will sort this out.
I for one want to say that Christians can believe that the LORD GOD is one God. You are not and never have been required to believe in the Trinity doctrine and to believe that Mary is the mother of God.
Christians need to repent of these Babylonian doctrines and hold up an olive branch to the Jews.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 15 2007,10:25) Dear t8: Thank you for your response.
It seems that you believe that the doctrine of the trinity teaches that there is no difference between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is NOT what is taught in the doctrine of the trinity.
In Gen. 2:24 speaks of a man and woman becoming “one”. That same word is used in Dt. 6:4 to describe the unity or oneness of God. When I married my husband, we became one, united…not one body. He has an office within the Body of Christ that differs from mine. There are things he can do that I as a woman cannot. We are equally human, however, our positions are different.
The Bible teaches 4 things. The doctrine of the trinity is one way to reconcile these 4 truths.
1. The Father is a person separate from the Son and the Holy Spirit. He is fully God.
2. The Son is a person separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is fully God.
3. The Holy Spirit is a person separate from the Father and the Son. He is fully God.
4. There is one and only one God. He has told us clearly that He created no other God, will never create another God; and, if there is another God, He doesn't know about it.
So, you can find a way to accept ALL that God has to say or account for how many pages you're willing to rip out of your Bible.
I am more than willing, but not tonight, to look at each of your verses and answer each. I do not fear the Truth. If I do not hold the Truth in my heart, I want those who do to share it with me…to challenge me to search and diligently strive to find it. I do not ever want to close myself off to any challenge. Truth can stand against the worst of onslaughts the Enemy has to offer.
So, in closing, thank you for engaging. You are right. No good can come of a lie and we must be built up in love and truth in Christ.
To gwhelchel.When you believe that there is one true God, the Father as is required of believers, (as Paul says), then there are no contradictions. I have looked at most scriptures and haven't found a contradiction yet.
But when you believe in the Trinity doctrine, that doctrine seems to work for some/few scriptures, but the vast majority do not make sense. I have been looking into this for years now and each time the conclusion remains the same. There is one God, the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I use to believe in the Trinity doctrine myself but repented of it years ago.
Since then, God has continued to show me that truth. The biggest witness is scripture itself.
Then, I challenge you to show me the battle you have fought, the Truths you have learned, and stand toe-to-toe with me and truly examine the Word of God.
I never tire of re-examining what I believe, testing daily whether what I believe is true. I since that you also share that passion. I welcome that totally and sincerely.
Please show me how you walked away from believing that the trinity was false and began to believe that it was not.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,10:33) AH yes the ole magic trick again.
It's not a trick. There are no secret pulleys and ropes.It is just scripture. 100 verses. The tip of the iceberg.
No tricks, just scriptures that happen to have the word “God” in them.
Your doctrine doesn't work for any of these 100 scriptures.
How can your conscience ignore that?
Surely there must be at least some feeling in your conscience.
After all it is 100 scriptures. Not just a few difficult, misinterpreted, or mistranslated scriptures.
They are 100 simple, straightforward, and clear scriptures that anyone can understand. You don't need theological training to understand them.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 15 2007,10:49) Then, I challenge you to show me the battle you have fought, the Truths you have learned, and stand toe-to-toe with me and truly examine the Word of God. I never tire of re-examining what I believe, testing daily whether what I believe is true. I since that you also share that passion. I welcome that totally and sincerely.
Please show me how you walked away from believing that the trinity was false and began to believe that it was not.
Before I do that.Do you admit that the word “Trinity” breaks these 100 scriptures when replaced by the word God? Or at least the ones you read from that page.
If you do not admit that, then I see little reason to reason with you. If you can admit it or give a good explanation why the word “Trinity” breaks these 100 verses, then I will explain it gladly.
Wow! How do you know the intents of my heart and the thoughts of mind? I did not accuse you of having secret pulleys and ropes and “tricks”. I do not fear your 100 verses. How do you know what is my doctrine? How can you determine if it can stand your test until or unless you give it that opportunity? My conscience? You are able to read my mind and the intents of my heart…I thought that was only possible for God. There is MUCH feeling in my conscience. I am offended and insulted that you would assume, without knowing me or taking time to really hear me, that I am without conscience.
I only balk at answering 100 verses because, in my time zone, it is 9:00 pm and I must be up at 5:30 am. I do not hesitate for a moment to answer each verse. I do not think that you would use a “slight of hand” to offer only difficult, misinterpreted, or mistranslated scriptures.
I wonder if you are willing to stand the same test.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 15 2007,10:58) Wow! How do you know the intents of my heart and the thoughts of mind? I did not accuse you of having secret pulleys and ropes and “tricks”. I do not fear your 100 verses. How do you know what is my doctrine? How can you determine if it can stand your test until or unless you give it that opportunity? My conscience? You are able to read my mind and the intents of my heart…I thought that was only possible for God. There is MUCH feeling in my conscience. I am offended and insulted that you would assume, without knowing me or taking time to really hear me, that I am without conscience. I only balk at answering 100 verses because, in my time zone, it is 9:00 pm and I must be up at 5:30 am. I do not hesitate for a moment to answer each verse. I do not think that you would use a “slight of hand” to offer only difficult, misinterpreted, or mistranslated scriptures.
I wonder if you are willing to stand the same test.
gwhelchel I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was replying to WJ who says I was pulling a trick by showing 100 verses that cannot be reconciled with the trinity doctrine. I wasn't talking or referring to you at all.No hard feelings though, as you did say it was late, so I guess that might explain it.
I wouldn't dare suggest that I know your heart. How could I? I have had too little correspondence with you here, to gain any understanding as to what manner of person you are.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,10:33) AH yes the ole magic trick again. Lets see, we will replace a singular noun “God” with a Plural Noun “Trinity”, yes that will prove that Jesus is not God and the Trinity dosnt exist.
Folly and sleight of the hand for the imature of which I am sure that GW would not fall for.
LOL.
Not as silly as you think.You teach that the word Trinity and God is the same.
You say that:1 God = 3 persons.
1 Trinity = 3 persons.They are actually both singular words.
Trinities and gods are plural. Trinity and God are singular.
But scripture never teaches that the singular God is made up of 3 persons.
Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,15:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,10:33) AH yes the ole magic trick again.
It's not a trick. There are no secret pulleys and ropes.It is just scripture. 100 verses. The tip of the iceberg.
No tricks, just scriptures that happen to have the word “God” in them.
Your doctrine doesn't work for any of these 100 scriptures.
How can your conscience ignore that?
Surely there must be at least some feeling in your conscience.
After all it is 100 scriptures. Not just a few difficult, misinterpreted, or mistranslated scriptures.
They are 100 simple, straightforward, and clear scriptures that anyone can understand. You don't need theological training to understand them.
t8Because it is an assault to anyones intellegence.
It dosnt even make grammatical sence to take a plural noun and replace it with a singular noun.
Anyone can change scripture and make it say what they want.
Your example prooves nothing!
The funny thing is WJ, you say that the Trinity is triune and that God is triune. There is no difference is there?
It's not like you are saying the Trinities is it?
It is late for me and I will leave you with this thought.
Were you to hold in your hands an empty box, upon removing the lid to that box and putting your hand into the emptiness, you would be touching what scientists would describe as “space”. Space has 3 dimensions, height, width, and depth. As your hand enters the space, you will find, if you are open and honest, that you cannot touch any of the space without touching, at the same time, the height, width, and depth. The height is not the width, the width, is not the depth, the depth is the the height. Each has a different office and function. Each can be measured separately, each describes the space differently, each has a different function. And, there is only one space and yet there are three dimensions. What is true of one dimension is not always true of the other dimension.
In a similar way, what is true of the Father is not always true of the Son. What is true of the Son is not always true of the Holy Spirit. Yet, they are each described as God…so like the space, they are one in a unique way. One is not always a matimatical concept. Sometimes it stretches our finite understanding and asks us to stand in awesome wonder of the truth of God…that He cannot be fully grasped by our human, finite minds…go figure!
Prove that the Scriptures do not teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each referred to as God. Teach that the Bible does not teach that there is only one God. Please present to me an explanation that does not omit Scripture or tear pages out of my Bible and embraces ALL truth…not only some of it.
Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,16:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,10:33) AH yes the ole magic trick again. Lets see, we will replace a singular noun “God” with a Plural Noun “Trinity”, yes that will prove that Jesus is not God and the Trinity dosnt exist.
Folly and sleight of the hand for the imature of which I am sure that GW would not fall for.
LOL.
Not as silly as you think.You teach that the word Trinity and God is the same.
You say that:1 God = 3 persons.
1 Trinity = 3 persons.They are actually both singular words.
Trinities and gods are plural. Trinity and God are singular.
But scripture never teaches that the singular God is made up of 3 persons.
t8Trinity is not a singular noun.
You know it.
The word trinity means three.
Dear Nick”
Your response is what I would expect from a JW. I've researched enough of the responses to realize that this is not who you are…or I'm assuming that this is not who you are based upon some of your responses. I asked this question directly and you evaded it.
While a day with God is as a thousand years, when God said that Adam and Eve would die in the day that they ate of the fruit, if He did not refer to a spiritual death, how do you explain the second chapter of Ephesians?
???Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,15:49) Then, I challenge you to show me the battle you have fought, the Truths you have learned, and stand toe-to-toe with me and truly examine the Word of God. I never tire of re-examining what I believe, testing daily whether what I believe is true. I since that you also share that passion. I welcome that totally and sincerely.
Please show me how you walked away from believing that the trinity was false and began to believe that it was not.
hi gwhelchelHave you read the 700 pages of this thread?
Please if you have the truth don’t make us fight for it;
Have you things that our ears have not heard or our eyes have not read?
Please freely giveIf the bible was written by Trinitarians, I doubt that 100 verses like these would be in the bible. Instead, you would see language like “May God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit be with you”.
But you don't see such language.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,11:14) t8 Trinity is not a singular noun.
You know it.
The word trinity means three.
But your meaning of the word God is also 3.
There is no difference between your understanding of the word Trinity and God. They are both triune.Think about it.
Of course YHWH is one, but you say he is triune.
So if you say that God is a Trinity, then you should be confident to read the Word God as meaning Trinity.
You do not sound so confident though. I don't blame you.
I lost confidence in that doctrine along time ago.
I will end tonight with the acknowledgment that the Father is not the Son.
Matthew 27:46 is the first of the verses you asked me to substitute the word trinity for the word God. As I read this verse, I wonder why on earth you would think that the word “trinity” in this verse would be supported by anyone with an IQ above 25.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, Lama Sachthani? That is, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsake me.”
So, to answer your exact question, I would have to say this verse:
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “My Trinity, my Trinity, why hast thou forsaken me?” If He is part of the Trinity, then He would need to be schizophrenic to have said those words.
Do you really believe that those who believe the doctrine of the trinity are that stupid?
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