The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Then, do you view your theories and speculations as that, merely a theory and only speculation?

May 14, 2007 at 12:06 am#52031

Participant

Hi GW,
I do not teach the nature of God from outside of scripture, as trinity must be taught.
We find about God from what is written.
Trinity is not written.

May 14, 2007 at 2:17 am#52037

Tim2

Participant

Gwhelchel,

If I may, I think you'll find it's useless to try to have an honest discussion with Nick. As he says, he views his role as an admin here to direct people to what he thinks the truth is. So he won't respond to your points that disagree with his views. However, several of the non-trinitarians here are actually willing to engage in discussion, such as David, Kenrch, Not3in1, 94, WhatisTrue, and many others. t8, the leader of the page, also sticks to the issues, although he's been missed lately. So I suggest you simiply ignore Nick, although here is a brief summary of what I've managed to piece together of his beliefs (please correct me where I'm wrong, Nick):

It used to be the case that the Word was God, as in John 1:1. At that time, there were two who were God, the Father and the Word. However, the Word literally emptied Himself of His Godhead (Philippians 2:6) and became the man Jesus Christ, who was and is a vessel for His Father, who now alone is the true God over all. The Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father on earth, and filled Jesus during His ministry as He now fills believers in Jesus. Thus, Scriptural assertions of the Deity of Christ refer either to His past status as God, or to the indwelling of the Father in Him.

That's basically right, right Nick?

Tim

May 14, 2007 at 2:19 am#52038

Participant

You are certainly hung up on the word trinity and this acts to close your mind to anything the Bible says that does not fit into your neat little box. I have not presented to you “man's” wisdom, theory, or speculation. I have presented to you the words of the Bible.

I really wasn't trying to “convert” you, I merely wanted to know how you reconcile the verses I presented. It is obvious that your mind is totally closed and you are not willing to test what you believe.

I do not understand why you are so afraid to give an answer to the hope (what that is I do not know…I just know the word “trinity” is not part of it) that is in you.

I feel sorry for you. I'm done casting pearls.

May 14, 2007 at 2:27 am#52039

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 14 2007,06:11)

Wow! And I thought I had it rough here. These attacks against gwhelchel are outrageous. David and Kenrch are the only ones who have made any attempt to respond to what she actually wrote. And Nick, shame on you, you're an administrator of this forum, and you won't even respond to what a guest has to say. t8, what sort of website are you trying to run here, where your administrators run wild? But I admire you gwhelchel for staying here in spite of this onslaught of “insults and attacks.” Any third party reading these pages would clearly see that you've made valid points from Scripture that no one except Kenrch has even addressed. Let's hope there are such observers …

Now to respond to Kenrch, I don't think Scripture ever says that any believer or even the church as a whole is “the exact representation” of the Father's hypostasis. Nor is the church called “God with us.” And while the church partakes of the Holy Spirit, as you say, the Holy Spirit partakes of Jesus! John 16:14. Everyone here agrees more or less that the Spirit is God. How is it that God partakes of Jesus, if Jesus is a created being?

Tim

I agree.

However, this is a good sign.

They hated the words of Jesus and the Apostles, and many of them even stopped their ears.

GW seems to be a very strong believer and has brought more light to this sight.

You can feel the disdain coming against her.

It is a fact that most unbelivers dont want to post or talk about scriptures. They either can't or dont want to back up their sayings by the scriptures, because it may expose their scriptural error and beliefs.

When a person expounds on scripture here they are open for the whole world to judge their words whether they are true or not. So one has to be pretty solid in their belief here before they post.

If some how it could be known how much scripture the Trinitarians bring out as opposed to the Unitarians and the Arians and the Henotheist, I think it would surprise most.

The sentiment of the Anti-Trinitarians is summed up I think with not3s words…

Quote

Oh, and welcome GW. I'm one of the heritics here, pleased to meet you! I speak from a women's point of view, so sometimes I speak more from ideas and stories versus quoting all of scripture. Besides, I see that doesn't really help in getting a point accross anyway (no matter how eloquent or organized). In fact, I rather enjoy Nick's one or two sentence posts – they do exactly what I imagine he intends them to…..they get us to think and to share the truth that we know.

For some, scripture dosnt seem to be important for them or at least not all of it.

What else do we have but the scriptures and the Spirit of truth to quicken those beautiful words from the pages of the Bible and revealing the very deep and hidden things of God?

It is no surprise though, Jesus said if they hated me they will hate you also.

Matt 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Acts

7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

7:57
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and *stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord*, (I wonder if there are any cyber stones?)

7:58
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, *Lord Jesus, receive my spirit*.

7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

The reason they stopped their ears is because Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, not above him nor beneath him, but at his right hand, the highest place of power in all of creation.

To a Monotheistic Jew as GW had mentioned, to associate Jesus at Gods right hand was saying he was equal to God, and hence that he was God.

To them any such association to God would be breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment.

And they were right!

But they were wrong in not seeing that Jesus was God.

I could imagine how they must have been even more infuriated when he called upon Jesus to recieve his Spirit.

Only God could do that.

It must have had an effect on some, as we know Paul was later converted, and began to declare this Son of God as God also.

1 Tim
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of *God our Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ*, which is our hope;

1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1:17
*Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen*.

2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of *God our Saviour*;

4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in *the living God, who is the Saviour of all men*, specially of those that believe.

6:14
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

6:15
Which in his times he shall shew, *who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords*;

6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is dwelling in the light which no man can approach nor see, only the Son has seen the Father, and that is because he is One with the Father as God.

May 14, 2007 at 2:28 am#52040

Participant

Hi Tim2,
The Word was God, with God in the beginning, and he agreed to obey God emptying himself to be exactly of our puny estate being filled with God's own Spirit at the Jordan and revealing God to men. We can follow Jesus.

May 14, 2007 at 2:36 am#52041

Participant

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,14:19)

I do not understand why you are so afraid to give an answer to the hope (what that is I do not know…I just know the word “trinity” is not part of it) that is in you.

I feel sorry for you. I'm done casting pearls.

By the way. I am encouraged by your words and the many scriptures you bring out.

I hope to hear more from you!

Blessings. And again welcome!

May 14, 2007 at 2:39 am#52042

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:28)

You say God cannot die, and yet he ceased to be God.

Do you have a scripture that says he ceased to be God besides he emptied himself?

May 14, 2007 at 2:40 am#52043

Participant

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,14:19)

I do not understand why you are so afraid to give an answer to the hope (what that is I do not know…I just know the word “trinity” is not part of it) that is in you.

I feel sorry for you. I'm done casting pearls.

Hi gw,
Pearls of wisdom come from the mouth of God.
Trinity does not come from God's holy mouth.
Spit it out, it is noxious to your health.

May 14, 2007 at 2:45 am#52045

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:40)

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,14:19)

I do not understand why you are so afraid to give an answer to the hope (what that is I do not know…I just know the word “trinity” is not part of it) that is in you.

I feel sorry for you. I'm done casting pearls.

Hi gw,
Pearls of wisdom come from the mouth of God.
Trinity does not come from God's holy mouth.
Spit it out, it is noxious to your health.

It seems that you are the one choking on the word “Trinity”.

May 14, 2007 at 2:55 am#52047

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2007,14:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:28)

You say God cannot die, and yet he ceased to be God.

Do you have a scripture that says he ceased to be God besides he emptied himself?

Hi W,
Jesus Christ had divine origins but came in the flesh and died. God cannot die so it should be quite obvious to you that he was not the God he was with in the beginning Who he revealed to be his father. If he was our God then he was not our brother and not alike to us as we are not God.
He died and the Spirit never abandoned him and his raising was in the life of the Spirit of God.
We follow him.

May 14, 2007 at 3:03 am#52050

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,09:45)

It seems that you are the one choking on the word “Trinity”.

OK I am not Nick, but it is better to choke on the Trinity if it leads you to spit it out than to consume it and let it go into your mind and thereby become a belief.

Truth is from God. Lies come ultimately from the Father of Lies and from men who do his bidding.

May 14, 2007 at 3:08 am#52052

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2007,14:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:28)

You say God cannot die, and yet he ceased to be God.

Do you have a scripture that says he ceased to be God besides he emptied himself?

God can not cease to be God!

May 14, 2007 at 3:10 am#52053

Participant

Thank you for your words of encouragement and, Tim2, for your explanation of what Nick believes. I understand a lot more now and it helps.

Nick, you are right, pears of wisdom do come from the mouth of God and God's Word does not use the word “trinity”. Thank you for your response to Tim2.

You wrote: “The Word was God, with God in the beginning, and he agreed to obey God emptying himself to be exactly of our puny estate being filled with God's own Spirit at the Jordan and revealing God to men. We can follow Jesus.”

So Nick, you've got two personages who co-existed, both were God, and one emptied Himself of His Godhood to become a man. Is that a correct understanding of what you believe? That much I agree with.

But, as John 1:1 states, the Word was God…and this creates a serious dilemma because God says that He has never, and will never, create another God…and that, if there is another God, He doesn't know about it. So Nick, how do you explain that the Word was God and the Father didn't know about it? Did the Father lie? Did He mislead? Did He forget?

The Bible teaches that, in the beginning, God created…and no one was with Him (Jer. 27:5; Job. 9:8; Mal. 2:10: Zec. 12:1; Isa. 44:24; 45:7-8, 12, 18; 48:13; 66:2; 37:16; Ps. 95:4-5; 102:25; 8:3; 19:1; Neh. 9:6; Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; Act. 7:50; Rom. 11:33-36; Rev. 4:11; 14:7. And yet the New Testament tells me that EVERYTHING that was created was created by, for, and through Jesus. Jn. 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:3, 10-12 with Ps. 102:25-27; Col. 1:16-17. If Jesus was ever created, then did He create Himself?

We are told that God is the only Savior (Isa. 43:3, 11; 45:21; Hos. 13:4; Lk. 1:47; I Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10). It is beyond the power of a human to save (Ps. 49:7-8; 60:11-12; 108:12-13; Jer. 17:5-7. The Son is the only Savior (Hos. 1:7; Tit. 1:3 with 1:4; 2:10 with 2:13; 3:4 with 3:6; Acts 4:12).

What does come from God's holy mouth is abundant proof that Jesus is God, very God. If there is only one God, and I totally agree that the Scriptures are very clear on that point, how do you reconcile this dilemma? Does the Father really not know that the Son is God? Your choices are to find a way for ALL of what God says to be true even if you don't fully understand it in your finite logic and reasoning…or tear a lot of pages out of your Bible. The choice is yours to make.

May 14, 2007 at 3:11 am#52054

Proclaimer

Participant

To gwhelchel .

Hello and welcome.

I want to challenge you regarding your Trinity belief.

Here is a link to 100 scriptures that mention the word “God”.
Now if the Trinity is a true belief, then you should by all accounts be confident enough to translate the word “God” in these scriptures for the word “Trinity (Father, Son, & Spirit”.

However what you will find in practice is that the word Trinity violates all 100 verses (which is just the tip of the iceberg). Of course you don't have to read all 100 verses, but maybe give 10 verses at random a go.

If you agree with the result after doing this, that indeed the word “God” when replaced with the word “Trinity” certainly does break these scriptures, than ask yourself why you believe that doctrine if that is the outcome.

Before you start, I ask you to be honest and see what the implications are. For no good can come of a lie and we must be built up in love and truth in Christ.

Here are the 100 scriptures:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

May 14, 2007 at 3:14 am#52055

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,15:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,09:45)

It seems that you are the one choking on the word “Trinity”.

OK I am not Nick, but it is better to choke on the Trinity if it leads you to spit it out than to consume it and let it go into your mind and thereby become a belief.

Truth is from God. Lies come ultimately from the Father of Lies and from men who do his bidding.

Good to see you back.

Yes you are correct Truth is from God and lies are from the Father of lies.

Truth also shines bright and will conquer darkness.

Yeshua is that light, ahh, but so is the Father and the Spirit.

May 14, 2007 at 3:21 am#52057

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2007,15:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2007,14:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2007,14:28)

You say God cannot die, and yet he ceased to be God.

Do you have a scripture that says he ceased to be God besides he emptied himself?

God can not cease to be God!

Hi W,
What is that God is the Word, the monogenes Son?
He came and did die.
God did neither.

May 14, 2007 at 3:23 am#52058

Participant

Hi W,
You say
“It seems that you are the one choking on the word “Trinity”.”

Quite so, and on God the Son, God the Spirit, incarnation, infallibility, immaculate conception, the mother of God and all the other lies of babylonia.

May 14, 2007 at 3:25 am#52059