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Hi W,
Jesus was a man like us and he lived and died as men do and anything supernatural done through him was by the Spirit of the Father in him. He said so and those who call him master should at least believe him. Thus too we can follow him.Quote WJ What you try to prove that the Holy Spirit is a Seperate person..
I just proved how he was not.
It is your own misunderstanding not mine..
Sorry you have not proved anything.You havent addressed John 16:13-15.
You have not explained how the Spirit who you say is the personal Spirit of the Father is subservient to the Son!
Upperhand. I think not.
My Lord and My God has the upper hand!
His name is Yeshua, Jesus, the name above all names!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2007,10:39) Hi W,
Did you expect the Spirit of Christ to go beyond the teachings of Christ?
NHI thought you believe it is Christ that recieved from the Spirit, not the other way around.
Dont you say he is just a vessel, a funnel, that God has poured his Spirit and power through?
So now you are saying the teachings of Jesus is above the Spirit of God?
Hi W,
The Spirit of God was poured into Christ.
He was filled with the Spirit to the fulness of deity.
That Spirit was given to Christ and God gives without repentance.
Rom11
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.Thus the Spirit of Christ does not speak on His own initiative but teaches us to abide in scripture and not to go it into vain speculation.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 11 2007,07:09) Quote WJ Now watch and see what Paul said.. Read. Romans.8:9-10.. Romans 8:9-10
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10
9 but ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.If Paul calls the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ as is shown in this verse and that Spirit dwells in us, and Christ dwells in us, and we know that we have been made to drink into “One Selfsame Spirit”, then that means the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, which means that Christ is God.
For the Lord is that Spirit.
But how many Spirits do we have?
We have One Spirit.
How do you reconcile this with John 16:13-15 which shows that the Comforter is subservient to the Son.
Yet we also know that the Father who is Spirit dwells in us.
All the scriptures you mention joined together with what I have mentioned leaves only one conclusion without leaving some out or contradicting each other.
To harmonize “ALL” the scriptures the only conclusion is a Trinitarian view.
One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.
Hence Trinitarian.
I mention Arians because history shows the big debate was between Arius who didnt believe Christ was God, and Athanasius who did.
Just as Trinitarians are “accused” of following Athanasius and Constantine because of their Trinitarian beliefs, so it is with the non believers who follow Arius anti Trinitarian belief.
The debate still rages.
You are right, there are two camps, those who dont believe the Word/God came in the flesh which is anti Christ and those who believe that the Word/God came in the flesh.
Unfortunatly we have two Jesus,s being preached.
One side believes he is just a mere man like we are. The other believes Jesus is both God and man, the Monogenes “Unique” Son of God.
One dosnt believe it is possible for an infinantly powerfull God to come in the flesh, who said “all things are possible for him” and “nothing is to hard for him”.
The other believes it is possible and that as the Hebrew scriptures proclaim…
Is 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? *and there is no God else beside me*; a just *God and a Saviour; there is none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and *thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me*.Yet we have men running around calling Jesus Lord and Master and at the same time saying he is just a mere man, anointed prophet, like the prophets of old, or he is just an empty vessel or a funnel for God, or a puppet on a string with no will or power of his own, and all kinds of foolishness.
They even deny that he is the creator of “all things and that without him was not anything made that was made”.
Jesus said…
Matt 6:24
*No man can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
WJWe all Know the Holy Spirit is the Father dont need to get into the he and we stuff and or the attributes. I hit on the attributes all ready dont need to get into again..I could if you like me to.I do believe you are smarter than that.To now the difference … I think. I dont want tobe a English teacher tonight..
John 16:13
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Now WJ for the next verse.
John 16:14… He “”the Holy Spirit”” shall glorify me..
It is the Father who glorifies Jesus..
John 17:1
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:John 17:5
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:22
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:John 17:24
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.John 8:54
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:Now WJ for this verse
John 16:15
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.ALL things that the Father hath is mine.How is this So??Because Jesus is a APPOINTED Heir of all things!
Hebrews 1:2
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;You are right No man can serve two Master..That is why I serve the Father..Because the Father is Greater than Jesus.And Jesus taught us how to pray.It went OUR FATHER…
So much for the Co Equal..Dont you think?
John 14:28
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Unisage,
I agree, God is a Spirit. I don't believe in multiple Spirits, but in one Spirit, God.
And I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is God. And the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, such that when the Father says, “My Spirit,” He means the Holy Spirit.
What you haven't shown anyone is that the Holy Spirit is the Father. None of your verses say that. In fact, they all show a distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the Father, why doesn't the Father just say “Myself”? As in, “I will fill them with Myself?”Regardless, you've never answered John 15:26. Just walk through that one with me, will ya? “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.” First of all, if the Holy Spirit is the Father, then Jesus is sending the Father. Are you suggesting subordination of the Father to the Son? Second, there are two grammatical impossibilities if the Spirit is the Father. One would read, “The Father whom I will send to you from the Father?” And the other is, “The Father who proceeds from the Father.” Neither of these make sense.
The problem with your argument, Unisage, is that you go back and forth between saying, “The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father,” (which is written), and saying, “The Holy Spirit is the Father” (which is not written). The first sentence implies a distinction, either that the Spirit is a separate subsistence from the Father, as Trinitarians believe, or a part of the Father, as Nick believes (His finger). And now in your last post it seems you're adding another spirit, the spirit of the Son, whom you don't believe is the Holy Spirit? If that's what you believe, you're contradicting your claims to only believe in one Spirit.
TimHi Tim2,
It is scripture that shows the Spirit is as the finger of God[Lk11, mt12]
So looking at some of the parallels.A finger is not naturally separate from the being.
The being without the finger would be incomplete.
The finger works exactly according to wishes of the being.
The finger is very adept at many things but incompetant to do many others such as walking, speaking, hearing.
To shake the hand is to be involved in greeting the being.To assault the finger is to assault the being.
To divide the finger from the being is to assault the being.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2007,17:41) The finger is very adept at many things but incompetant to do many others such as walking, speaking, hearing.
The Holy Spirit IS adept at hearing and speaking apparently…John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.He has a few other abilities, for instance He:
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Has a mind (Rom 8:27).Not bad for a “finger”…..
Quote (Unisage @ May 11 2007,17:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 11 2007,07:09) Quote WJ Now watch and see what Paul said.. Read. Romans.8:9-10.. Romans 8:9-10
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10
9 but ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.If Paul calls the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ as is shown in this verse and that Spirit dwells in us, and Christ dwells in us, and we know that we have been made to drink into “One Selfsame Spirit”, then that means the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, which means that Christ is God.
For the Lord is that Spirit.
But how many Spirits do we have?
We have One Spirit.
How do you reconcile this with John 16:13-15 which shows that the Comforter is subservient to the Son.
Yet we also know that the Father who is Spirit dwells in us.
All the scriptures you mention joined together with what I have mentioned leaves only one conclusion without leaving some out or contradicting each other.
To harmonize “ALL” the scriptures the only conclusion is a Trinitarian view.
One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.
Hence Trinitarian.
I mention Arians because history shows the big debate was between Arius who didnt believe Christ was God, and Athanasius who did.
Just as Trinitarians are “accused” of following Athanasius and Constantine because of their Trinitarian beliefs, so it is with the non believers who follow Arius anti Trinitarian belief.
The debate still rages.
You are right, there are two camps, those who dont believe the Word/God came in the flesh which is anti Christ and those who believe that the Word/God came in the flesh.
Unfortunatly we have two Jesus,s being preached.
One side believes he is just a mere man like we are. The other believes Jesus is both God and man, the Monogenes “Unique” Son of God.
One dosnt believe it is possible for an infinantly powerfull God to come in the flesh, who said “all things are possible for him” and “nothing is to hard for him”.
The other believes it is possible and that as the Hebrew scriptures proclaim…
Is 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? *and there is no God else beside me*; a just *God and a Saviour; there is none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and *thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me*.Yet we have men running around calling Jesus Lord and Master and at the same time saying he is just a mere man, anointed prophet, like the prophets of old, or he is just an empty vessel or a funnel for God, or a puppet on a string with no will or power of his own, and all kinds of foolishness.
They even deny that he is the creator of “all things and that without him was not anything made that was made”.
Jesus said…
Matt 6:24
*No man can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
WJWe all Know the Holy Spirit is the Father dont need to get into the he and we stuff and or the attributes. I hit on the attributes all ready dont need to get into again..I could if you like me to.I do believe you are smarter than that.To now the difference … I think. I dont want tobe a English teacher tonight..
John 16:13
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Now WJ for the next verse.
John 16:14… He “”the Holy Spirit”” shall glorify me..
It is the Father who glorifies Jesus..
John 17:1
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:John 17:5
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:22
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:John 17:24
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.John 8:54
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:Now WJ for this verse
John 16:15
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.ALL things that the Father hath is mine.How is this So??Because Jesus is a APPOINTED Heir of all things!
Hebrews 1:2
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;You are right No man can serve two Master..That is why I serve the Father..Because the Father is Greater than Jesus.And Jesus taught us how to pray.It went OUR FATHER…
So much for the Co Equal..Dont you think?
John 14:28
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
USo tell me “who is speaking to the Father and telling him what to speak”?
And I suppose the Father can not speak of himself!
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: *for he (the Father) shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.So let me understand.
The Father has to hear from Jesus what to speak and show us, and he can not speak of himself?
John 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *he (the Father) shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.So the Father gives everything to Jesus then takes from Jesus and gives it to us?
Thats a new one to me.
So I guess when the Father gives good gifts to us he has to get them from Jesus. Since all things are his.
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts u
nto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (the Father) to them that ask him?And who is this “Another” Comforter that the Father will give us.
Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and *he shall give you another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;“Another” Greek 'allos', Which means;
another, other,
Generally denotes simply distinction of individuals.Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, *whom the Father will send in my name*, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom *I will send unto you from the Father*, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, *I will send him unto you*.So now we have the Father sending himself and the Son sending the Father, and the Father proceeds from himself and testifys of Jesus.
BTW. Are you developing this falacy as you go because John chapter 15:16 calls him “The Spirit of Truth”, and this is what you said about the Spirit of truth…
Quote If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. You claimed the Spirit of truth was not a person, now you say it is the Father.
I think you need to read Isaiahs take again, for you are grossly missinterpreting the scriptures by saying the Comforter is the Father.
Quote Hi U,
I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them:John 16:7
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14:
John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture.
Romans 8:14-15
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”Cf.
Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible.
Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here….
These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded.
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 11 2007,17:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2007,17:41) The finger is very adept at many things but incompetant to do many others such as walking, speaking, hearing.
The Holy Spirit IS adept at hearing and speaking apparently…John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.He has a few other abilities, for instance He:
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Has a mind (Rom 8:27).Not bad for a “finger”…..
LOLI agree with Tim that is funny!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2007,08:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 11 2007,17:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2007,17:41) The finger is very adept at many things but incompetant to do many others such as walking, speaking, hearing.
The Holy Spirit IS adept at hearing and speaking apparently…John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.He has a few other abilities, for instance He:
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Has a mind (Rom 8:27).Not bad for a “finger”…..
LOLI agree with Tim that is funny!
You must amiss the other post that I wrote that is strange .That goes to show how the triity people contradict the Scriptures..IMHOQuote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,06:01) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Jesus's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Why is the Holy Spirit never Stated as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10 I do not even see an empty throne for him.
1 Cor.11:3 gives a Rank in which women, men, and Christ each have a head with God.. As God the Father being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?
Eph.5:5 tells us the “kingdom” that believers shall inherit is of Christ and of God.. Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?
The Father and the Son talk with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?
The truth is God is the Holy Spirit!
Why is none of you trinity people can answer my Question on page 19 of this post? But you still push your false dogma…If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Jesus's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Why is the Holy Spirit never Stated as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10 I do not even see an empty throne for him.
1 Cor.11:3 gives a Rank in which women, men, and Christ each have a head with God.. As God the Father being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?
Eph.5:5 tells us the “kingdom” that believers shall inherit is of Christ and of God.. Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?
The Father and the Son talk with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?
The truth is God is the Holy Spirit!
Quote If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Jesus's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
U, the Father is the Father of Jesus from all eternity. Are you suggesting that Jesus did not exist prior to his birth?Quote Why is the Holy Spirit never Stated as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10 I do not even see an empty throne for him. I think you would agree that the Spirit of the Father and the Son is not excluded from the throne.
Quote 1 Cor.11:3 gives a Rank in which women, men, and Christ each have a head with God.. As God the Father being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit? Again, I think you would agree that the Spirit is with the Father and the Son. I fail to see how the failure to explicitly mention Him somehow means He is excluded from authority. Rather, I think it's implicit that the Spirit is with the Father and the Son.
Quote Eph.5:5 tells us the “kingdom” that believers shall inherit is of Christ and of God.. Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well? Romans 14:17, “The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”
Quote The Father and the Son talk with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit? John 16:13, “Whatever He hears, He will speak.”
Quote The truth is God is the Holy Spirit! Amen!
Tim
I am teaching about the doctrine of the Trinity and believe that the strongest proof of this doctrine is the second commandment. The first commandment forbids us to worship anyone other than the one true God. The second forbids us to make an image of this one true God and worship the one true God through this image. If the image is another god, then that is covered by the first commandment.
If I am not allowed to worship the one true God through a representative of Him, then how do I understand the verses in Hebrews chapter 1 that tell me that Jesus is the exact representative of God and that throughout the New Testament I am told that I can only worship the Father through the Son? It seems to me that this would break the second commandment. So, am I to believe that the Father created an image of Himself, the Son, and asked us to break His second commandment only with this one image that He personally created?
I agree that there is only one true God, Dt. 6:4 says that God is one “echod” a unity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are three Gods. It teaches that there are three persons in the Godhead, one God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism, that the Father was God in the Old Testament, the Son in the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. It teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has existed eternally in a triune relationship. The “one” God is the same word as the man and woman being “one” if you use the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
The Bible teaches that there is only ONE true God. Thus, all others that are called God can only be false gods. The Bible teaches that there is no one that can be like or possibly compared to God yet the Bible teaches that Jesus is the EXACT representation of the Father. How do you explain this?
I am seriously interested in knowing how you would answer the second commandment as New Testament believers are commanded to worship not only Jesus but to worship the Father only through the Son. If Jesus is not God the Son, equal with God the Father, than how do you explain this in light of the second commandment?
Thanks for you time in answering these questions.
Gloria
Hello. gwhelchel
2ND COMMANDMENT:
““You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion…”Quote The second forbids us to make an image of this one true God and worship the one true God through this image.
Actually, it forbids us from MAKING for ourselves an image of anything and bowing down to it.
Of course, many pagan nations and peoples have done this and still do.Quote how do I understand the verses in Hebrews chapter 1 that tell me that Jesus is the exact representative of God and that throughout the New Testament I am told that I can only worship the Father through the Son? It seems to me that this would break the second commandment. We are not “making” Jesus or forming him into a God.
Quote The Bible teaches that there is only ONE true God. Thus, all others that are called God can only be false gods.
This popular thought is a false one that has lead to the downfall of ….
Anyway, are the angels “false gods”? Were the Israelite judges who were also called “gods” false gods?
You limit the choice to “false god” or the only true God.This is a mistake. It's an either/or fallacy in reasoning.
There is another option.
The word God (Elohim) means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one,” etc.
Hence, this word fit the judges, angels, etc. Even Satan is called a God and he truly is powerful, being the ruler of this world.
Of course, he is not the only true God, and nor are the angels. But this doesn't mean that the word “god” doesn't fit them. It does and is applied to them.Thos idols who were gods who had ears but couldn't hear, and eyes, but couldn't see, of course had no power. They were powerless. They weren't gods at all. Hence, false gods.
Compared to Jehovah, the only true God, the only one who is every specifically described as Almighty, everyone else is below him in mightiness.
So to Jesus, the Father was God. To the Father, Jesus is not God. But to us, he certainly could be described with that word, and is.People also use the word “true” wrong here. Jehovah is the only true God.
This does't necesitate that everyone who is not Jehovah and called “god” is false.
Search “true” on the net and there is true love, true poker, true wealth, true color, etc.
This doesn't mean there is “false love, false poker,” etc.Interesting, but you do not address the real question, possibly I have not emphasized it clearly.
The second commandment, if it only means that we are not to create for ourselves another god, one we carve or mold…we are breaking the first commandment. The second commandment goes beyond the first which forbids worship of any god other than the one true God. The second commandment forbids the worship of the one true God through any form of representation of Him because He knows our natures and knows that part of the worship we pay to Him through this other image will rub off onto the image and thus, be worshipping Him alongside of the image. We see this clearly in Catholism.
So, sticking only to the second commandment, how does one worship the Father through the Son and not break the second commandment if the Son is not co-equal with the Father?
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 12 2007,19:43) Interesting, but you do not address the real question, possibly I have not emphasized it clearly. The second commandment, if it only means that we are not to create for ourselves another god, one we carve or mold…we are breaking the first commandment. The second commandment goes beyond the first which forbids worship of any god other than the one true God. The second commandment forbids the worship of the one true God through any form of representation of Him because He knows our natures and knows that part of the worship we pay to Him through this other image will rub off onto the image and thus, be worshipping Him alongside of the image. We see this clearly in Catholism.
So, sticking only to the second commandment, how does one worship the Father through the Son and not break the second commandment if the Son is not co-equal with the Father?
gwhelchel,I don't worship Jesus we accept the sacrifice of Jesus so we can boldly go before the throne. Jesus Himself said that only one is good..the Father.
I don't pray to Jesus again going through His sacrifice I pray to His and my Father as He instructed.
There is only one mediator between humans and God who is a Spirit. Jesus is that mediator! Mary nor any of the saints are a mediator to the Father.
Jesus the Son of man yet full of the Spirit~the Father~ was as close to being the Father as anyone could ever be. We sons of man have a pledge a down payment of the Spirit of God. So we are as Jesus, sons of men with the Spirit but on a much smaller scale until the end of this age when God will be all in all. Then the children of God, Jesus' brethren, will be revealed having our FULL reward of the Spirit.
IHN&L,
Ken
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