The Trinity Doctrine

[Unisage]

Tim

you cannot seperate the warmth and light from the Sun.Because it comes from the Sun.So there is not 3 suns

It is the same with the Holy Spirit and Gifts from God.You cant seperate them.Because it come from God. and there is no such thing as God being seperated.Even God knows when a sparrow has fallen the spirit that gave its life goes back to God.

[NickHassan]

Hi U,
God can be symbolised as the Sun and His Christ is as the lesser moon that is entirely dependent on the Sun for light and reflecting the sunlight to men.
1cor 15
“41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.”

[Unisage]

Hi Nick

I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all..

I dont see God being seperated or a three persons.

It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns.

I was just using as a example.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi

I would like to know how our natural sun denys what Jesus says about the Holy Spirit using personal pronouns and calling him “Another” helper?

The sun and all of creation declares the Glory of God.

“Plurality of Oneness” is found in everything.

Can any one name anything that dosnt have plurality of oneness?

Has not God shown us plurality of oneness in the creation?

The atomic structure of the Sun is protons, electrons and neutrons.

All matter is composed of atoms.

Can we not see the very glory and nature of God in the creation?

Plurality of Oneness.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!

2 Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the *name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*:

It is written!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God is one.
God is not multiples of one.

[david]

If you study this, you will find the truth in the following statement:

“Mankind in general, has followed variations of one kind or another, of the religion of Babylon, to this day.”-Ralph Woodrow; Babylon Mystery Religion; 1966

Over and over again we see this. Babylon the Great (false religion) is named after Babylon, and many of the major beliefs we see in all religions owe their beginnings to babylon. One example:

“There were triads of gods…”
-(Babylonian and Assyrian Religion,
Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40)

It is an inescapable fact that Babylon worshiped trinities thousands of years before so called “Christians.” (The Jews certainly had no concept of the trinity.)

Why 3? Why not 5 or 2? Why not 10? Is it just a coincidence that the Babylon’s engaged in false worship that happened to have the a number that reflected true worship?
I think any kind of logic or reasoning leads us to the conclusion that it is most likely not a coincidence.

“Rome…assimilated religions from her many conquered territories. All these religions had commonalities, for they all came from Babylon. These practices infiltrated and overcame the professing Christian Church, which later came to be dominated by Rome itself.”-Ralph Woodrow; Babylon Mystery Religion; 1966

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01)

Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example.

Hi U,
I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them:

John 16:7
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14:

John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture.

Romans 8:14-15
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“

Cf.

Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“

This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible.

Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here….

These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded.

Blessings

[Unisage]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26)

Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings

Isa 1:18

If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted.

[Unisage]

Ias 1:18

In Matthew 11:27, Jesus asserts that no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son… If the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would He not also have to know the Father and the Son? Jesus statement, then, would not have been true, and in fact would be a lie.Jesus Failed to give the Holy Spirit it proper due!

[Tim2]

Unisage,

You're not responding to what I'm writing. Look at John 15:26 please. Just look at it and tell me how it is possible that the Holy Spirit is the Father in light of that verse.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:44)

Ias 1:18 In Matthew 11:27, Jesus asserts that no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son… If the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would He not also have to know the Father and the Son? Jesus statement, then, would not have been true, and in fact would be a lie.Jesus Failed to give the Holy Spirit it proper due!

OH

MY

HOW

WE

MUST

GRASP

FOR

STRAWS!!!

Its says…

Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and *no man* knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth *any man* the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The last time I looked the Spirit is not a man.

Friend, why dont you address the scriptures Is 1:18 brings out?

How do you explain them from a Unitarian view?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings Isa 1:18 If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted.

Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person?

Jn 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*.

John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this…

Jn 4:
1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:*
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not.

[Unisage]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 09 2007,03:46)

Unisage, You're not responding to what I'm writing.  Look at John 15:26 please.  Just look at it and tell me how it is possible that the Holy Spirit is the Father in light of that verse. Tim

Tim

If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.There your answer tim.

The Father is God. The Son is Jesus. The Spirit is not seperate from God, because it is the “””life of God”””, not a person as some people teach. The Father did not give his son a person. He gave him His Spirit when it came from heaven “like a dove” and remained on him at the Jordan River.God spirit is God life.

Romans 8:10

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 5:26

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 17:1-2

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” – 1Cor.15:24,28

So where is the Holy Spirit in all of this Tim???

[Unisage]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,04:24)

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings Isa 1:18 If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person? Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*. John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this… Jn 4: 1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:* 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not.

If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.

[Unisage]

If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Jesus's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Why is the Holy Spirit never Stated as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10 I do not even see an empty throne for him.

1 Cor.11:3 gives a Rank in which women, men, and Christ each have a head with God.. As God the Father being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?

Eph.5:5 tells us the “kingdom” that believers shall inherit is of Christ and of God.. Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

The Father and the Son talk with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?

The truth is God is the Holy Spirit!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,05:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,04:24) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings Isa 1:18 If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person? Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*. John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this… Jn 4: 1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:* 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not. If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.

The President of the United States is greater than us but we are 100% equ
al to him as human beings!!!

[Unisage]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:04)

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,05:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,04:24) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings Isa 1:18 If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person? Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*. John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this… Jn 4: 1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:* 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not. If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority. The President of the United States is greater than us but we are 100% equal to him as human beings!!!

If the President sends the Vice President to act in his Stead.It dont make the Vice president …President either!

What kind of lame logic you have!We all have the Spirit of God in us does that Make us God to!

[Unisage]

Why dont you admit the Facts you are being deceived by a Man Made Doctrine!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,06:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:04) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,05:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,04:24) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all.. I dont see God being seperated or a three persons. It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns. I was just using as a example. Hi U, I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them: John 16:7 7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14: John 16:13-14 13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture. Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“ Cf. Galatians 4:6 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“ This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible. Romans 8:26-27 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here…. These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded. Blessings Isa 1:18 If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person? Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*. John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this… Jn 4: 1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:* 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not. If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority. The President of the United States is greater than us but we are 100% equal to him as human beings!!! If the President sends the Vice President to act in his Stead.It dont make the Vice president …President either! What kind of lame logic you have!We all have the Spirit of God in us does that Make us God to!

No.

But the scriptures dosnt ascibe the word “Theos” to us does it?

So the only reply that the Unitarians have when they cant explain scriptures is resort to Modalism since their human logic dosnt fit the word!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,06:54)

Why dont you admit the Facts you are being deceived by a Man Made Doctrine!

The facts are found in the scriptures which you have not addressed.

Is 1:18 has some valid points on the scriptures he pointed out.

I would like to know how you as a non-trinitarian understand those scriptures.

If you cant reply to them I will just assume that you dont have an answer.

[Author]

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