The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Establish truths from scripture and not inference first and then you may see clearly to correct others.
Condemnation is your style and that rarely attracts a postive response even if it satisfies you.

[Tim2]

Quote (t8 @ May 01 2007,17:23)

First off Jesus isn't God so he doesn't breach the Duet verse and secondly Jesus (the son) does these only because God shows him, but not from his own initiative. So it is actually God doing it through his son. Likewise we (should) do what Christ does. And when God works through us, we too cannot take the credit and if God works through the Church, then is the Church God too, because members of the Church can raise the dead etc. Jesus even says that greater works shall some do than himself, so I guess according to your thinking that we need to add in more people to the Trinity God, which would mean that the Trinity is getting bigger and will no longer be a Trinity starting from the first person to do greater works than Christ. It also seems to me that Trinitarians cannot grasp the simple fact that God works THROUGH Christ. They think he is actually God instead of realising that God works through him. They are blind by reason of them being led astray by teachers of men.

t8,

1. If Jesus isn't God, or a god, what is he? Are you saying Moses left out a category of beings, that Moses meant, “No god can do what you do, YHWH, but this other class of being, naturally they can do what you do.” Give me a break.

2. Show me in John 5:19-20 where it says the Father does it through Jesus? It doesn't. It says Jesus sees what the Father does and then does it. Moses in Deuteronomy 3:24 is saying that's impossible.

3. Regarding “through,” are you saying in all the verses in the Old Testament where creation is ascribed to YHWH alone, the author simply forgot to mention that YHWH did it all through someone else? Are you serious?

4. God works miracles through the church, but nowhere is it written of any believer, “I look at what God does, and then I do it. But I can only do it if I see God do it.” Believers can heal, prophecy, etc. but they can't create all things, and all things certainly aren't through them.

John 5:19-20 explicitly state that Jesus does everything the Father does. Deuteronomy 3:24 says that's impossible if Jesus is anyone other than YHWH.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 01 2007,15:57)

Trinity Verses Direct statements of one God and three persons:   (explicitly state the doctrine of the ecumenical creeds) -Direct statements of the oneness of God:        Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc. -no other gods:Isaiah  44:6 -Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God:           Matthew 28:19 -Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son:                              John 10:30 -Direct statements of the deity of the Son:    John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18 -Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2 John 14:26 Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit: (imply the doctrine of the ecumenical creeds) -Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit:      Acts 5:4-5     2 Corinthians 3:17 -Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son:      John 17:10      John 16:15       John 5:18        John 5:19        John 5:21        John 5:23 -Shared glory between the Father and the Son:      John 17:5 cf.  Isaiah 42:8 -Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life:  Acts 5:15 -omniscience:   John 16:30   John 21:17    -power and wisdom of God:  1 Cor 1:24 -Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God:          Mark 1:24 cf.  Isaiah 1:4 -First and Last:         Rev 1:17, 22:13 cf.  Isaiah 44:6 -Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:15          cf. Psalm 136:3          cf.  Deut. 10:17 -King of Kings:  Rev. 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:16 -Saviour:     Titus 2:13                      cf.  Isaiah 43:11           -Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son:        John 5:26 -Use of the divine Name by the Son:        John 8:58 -for the Son:Romans 10:13 -Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of/from the Father:              John 8:42   John 16:30 -Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son:      John 14:11      John 17:21      John 17:23 -Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15 -(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son:      Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7 Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25 -every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day:   Philippians 2:10-11      cf.  Isaiah 45:23 -worship of Jesus:Luke 24:52 John 10:38 -the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus:           Colossians 2:9 -Jesus existed in the form of God:         Philippians 2:6 -Exclusive works of YHWH performed by Jesus:Deuteronomy 3:24 John 5:19 Allusions and Hints to the Trinity: (in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity) -Allusions to the Son’s deity:  Matthew 1:23 -Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father:           Matthew 11:27       John 1:18 -Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God:   1 Cor 2:11 -Jesus will be great     Luke 1:32 -Jesus used interchangeably with God:     Luke 8:39 -the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh:                Genesis 1:27, 2:24 -woman out of man and same flesh as man:             Genesis 2:23 Middle Ground: (could go either way) -the Son of God:  God of God, or creation/mode of God?          Matthew 16:16 -firstborn of creation:  as creator or creation?        Colossians 1:15 -image of God:  because He’s God?       Colossians 1:15 Apparent henotheism   (tend to show multiple gods) -multiple gods?        Psalm 82 Apparent Contradictions   (pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity) -The Father greater than the Son:      John 16:28 -The Son not omniscient?                   Mark 13:32 -The Father the only true God:        John 17:3        1 Cor 8:6 Ephesians 4:6 -God the head of Christ:      1 Cor 11:3 -Son will be subject to the Father:    1 Cor 15:28

Hi Tim2,
Trinity theory is not written so it is not a valid option as far as discussion of the scriptural nature of God is concerned.

[Not3in1]

Does that clear it up for you?
*************

Thank, Ken, yes that does answer my questions surrounding “COME OUT OF HER” which I've heard almost every one of you say to the other. “She” must be poplular because everyone thinks that every one ELSE is “in” her?

I tell my children that when they point their finger at someone they need to be careful because three are pointing back at them!

[Not3in1]

Tim2 and EVERYONE,

Thanks for all the scriptures that you have compiled to contend for your belief in who, and what God is.

I've been away from the board and discussions for a while. I've been reading, “Leaving Church” by Barbara Brown Taylor. Good read. Very good read, in fact. Do you know what I've decided? You are entitled to believe God is a Trinity. You are even entitled to tell me that I need to “come out of her” *whatever that really means* and I would say to you – God bless you.

I've watched all kinds of scriptures pop up to prove various slants of Christianity. And guess what? They do, and can prove what you wish them to prove.

The Bible gives us contradictory lessons on a few issues. Given the “evidence” from strong Trinitarians on this board, and given the “evidence” from their opposing brothers – I've concluded that we all have truth. If the Bible was as crystal clear as we all think it is, then why were the creeds needed in the first place? And why is it that we cannot agree on a simple thing such as: who is Jesus? I think the answer is – we're not supposed to. Not only that, but I believe it's impossible.

What is not impossible, however, is to love and respect everyone right where they are with God. That is exactly what I am going to try to do. I will lurk on these boards, because I am a seeker of truth. But I doubt I will post very much at all anymore. I am out of my league here.

Thanks to all for discussing/debating with me. You have made me a better Christian for having your thoughts and ideas swimming around in my head. I have respected what many of you have said to me, and will carry some of the correction and praise with me for quite some time.

Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God that was to come. Instead, we turned the gospel of Jesus into the religion of Jesus, and instead of the Kingdom come – it was the Church that came.

God be with us all!

[Tim2]

Not3in1,

You're making a mistake. The Bible does not contradict itself. It does not leave the identity of God up in the air. It doesn't give us the right to decide who God is. 2 Peter 2:1 says that heretics will suffer swift destruction. This will be the fate of everyone who does not confess that Jesus is true God and the Lord of glory.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Then why have men stepped outside of scripture to devise and teach trinity?

[kenrch]

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father; for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.

The Comforter~the Holy Spirit~ is sent in Jesus' name. The same Spirit that Jesus had while on earth we have because of Jesus. When Jesus was rejoicing in the Spirit who did He direct His words too?

Was it a third person?

[Unisage]

No the Holy Spirit is God.I gave tim alot of verses showing that the Holy Spirit is God.They cant be seperated.

[Unisage]

Kenrch

Here is the link where I posted it.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=60

[kenrch]

Quote (Unisage @ May 03 2007,13:58)

Kenrch Here is the link where I posted it. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=60

I know the Holy Spirit is God but we must go through Jesus to get the Spirit therefore :

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, *even the Holy Spirit*, whom the Father will *SEND IN MY NAME*, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

[charity]

Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,14:12)

Quote (Unisage @ May 03 2007,13:58) Kenrch Here is the link where I posted it. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=60 I know the Holy Spirit is God but we must go through Jesus to get the Spirit therefore : Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, *even the Holy Spirit*, whom the Father will *SEND IN MY NAME*, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Hi

First John HAS said the comforter is The Holy ghost
Jhn 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now He breathes the holy Ghost on them and they receive
Jhn 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Now here they cant have the comforter whom he just said was the Holy Ghost? until he exchanges Himself
Jhn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Sore eye's

God bless

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
First expect wisdom and be not a barrier to it letting it minister to you and enlarge your mind.

[Tim2]

Quote (Unisage @ May 03 2007,13:56)

No the Holy Spirit is God.I gave tim alot of verses showing that the Holy Spirit is God.They cant be seperated.

Great Unisage! Now since the Holy Spirit is God, and He's not the Father, because He is sent by Jesus and proceeds from the Father (John 15:26), we've established that at least two distinct subsistences are God. Once you confess that Jesus is also God, you will have joined the millions of Christians who have confessed the Trinity for 2000 years.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
You have established nothing, except
that many rely too much on inference,
thereby insulting the Spirit of truth.

And joining the hordes in rebellion
would be unlikely to improve anybody's
relationship with God and His Son.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 03 2007,05:45)

Tim2 and EVERYONE, Thanks for all the scriptures that you have compiled to contend for your belief in who, and what God is.   I've been away from the board and discussions for a while.  I've been reading, “Leaving Church” by Barbara Brown Taylor.  Good read.  Very good read, in fact.  Do you know what I've decided?  You are entitled to believe God is a Trinity.  You are even entitled to tell me that I need to “come out of her” *whatever that really means* and I would say to you – God bless you. I've watched all kinds of scriptures pop up to prove various slants of Christianity.  And guess what?  They do, and can prove what you wish them to prove. The Bible gives us contradictory lessons on a few issues.  Given the “evidence” from strong Trinitarians on this board, and given the “evidence” from their opposing brothers – I've concluded that we all have truth.  If the Bible was as crystal clear as we all think it is, then why were the creeds needed in the first place?  And why is it that we cannot agree on a simple thing such as:  who is Jesus?  I think the answer is – we're not supposed to.  Not only that, but I believe it's impossible. What is not impossible, however, is to love and respect everyone right where they are with God.  That is exactly what I am going to try to do.  I will lurk on these boards, because I am a seeker of truth.  But I doubt I will post very much at all anymore.  I am out of my league here.   Thanks to all for discussing/debating with me.  You have made me a better Christian for having your thoughts and ideas swimming around in my head.  I have respected what many of you have said to me, and will carry some of the correction and praise with me for quite some time. Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God that was to come.  Instead, we turned the gospel of Jesus into the religion of Jesus, and instead of the Kingdom come – it was the Church that came. God be with us all!

Not3in1

While we do disagree on many things. You are correct about love.

We have surely had chemistry flying between us from the very start, and we both are very dogmatic in our beliefs.

Lighten up as “we say”.

So anyway I pray that you will continue to seek after the truth found in the scriptures, and I am not trying to throw mud at you but you should reconsider your position on the Trintarian view.

God bless, and I wish you and yours well and hope we talk again.

[Not3in1]

Thanks for the kind words and advice, WJ. Ken, thanks for the PM's to keep me encouraged. I will be back. I'm going to take a bit of rest and ponder all I have learned. I just may reconsider quite a lot while I'm resting and spending time with the living Word.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
You are a blessing.
Take your bible and cast away the doctrines and creeds of men
because the teacher cannot teach those who will not learn because they believe they know.

[Unisage]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 03 2007,20:04)

Quote (Unisage @ May 03 2007,13:56) No the Holy Spirit is God.I gave tim alot of verses showing that the Holy Spirit is God.They cant be seperated. Great Unisage!  Now since the Holy Spirit is God, and He's not the Father, because He is sent by Jesus and proceeds from the Father (John 15:26), we've established that at least two distinct subsistences are God.  Once you confess that Jesus is also God, you will have joined the millions of Christians who have confessed the Trinity for 2000 years. Tim

Tim

The Trinity Seperate God and the Holy Spirit.I didnt do such thing.Matter afact I proved that the Trinity is False by Proving they were NOT Seperated.

You failed to comprehend to what is being said.Now with this in Mind Jesus is Not God. Jesus is not his Own Father nor is he the Holy Spirit. To say Jesus is God is to deny Jesus came in the flesh.

And you dont even Make sense here whats so ever.. see Quote below.

Quote

Now since the Holy Spirit is God, and He's not the Father,

Tim >>Why did you say that the Holy Spirit is not the Father??? Then who is he Tim? Another God Here?

I just prove that the Holy Spirit is the Father and they are NOT Seperated.

[Tim2]

Unisage,

John 15:26: “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who preceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”

If the Holy Spirit is the Father, then this verse would read, “When the Father comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Father who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”

That makes no sense! The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

Tim

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