The Trinity Doctrine

[Tim2]

Hi Martian,

Thanks for continuing the discussion. I was scared you were going to walk away.

It seems most of our disagreement comes down to the divine and human natures of Christ. The Bible, in my opinion, shows that Jesus was fully man. But it also says that He is God (John 1:1) and became flesh (John 1:14). So we have to understand how the Godhead and manhood of Jesus interact. I probably couldn't figure this out on my own, but my brothers have studied this matter and long ago wrote the Definition of Chalcedon, available with the ecumenical creeds here: Reformed.org Ecumenical Creeds Perhaps the most relevant line is here:

“one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ”

So when we try to understand Jesus, we have to reconcile the claims of His deity with the claims of his humanity. Some reconcile this by saying He was only man, some by saying He was a lesser god (but how does His manhood fit in?), and some by saying He was just a vessel for the Father and the Spirit. How do you reconcile it?

I would say in response to some of your questions, I believe Jesus during His earthly ministry worked not under His own power, which I believe He chose not to assert while on earth, but under the power of the Holy Spirit. Luke 4:14. But we have other testimony in Scripture to Jesus' divine power outside of His earthly ministry, most importantly in creation. John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-20. Jesus could not have created the heavens (Hebrews 1:10) as a mere human acting under the power of the Holy Spirit.

So when we see verses such as John 5:19, we have to ask whether it is talking about Jesus' earthly ministry, or His eternal power, or both. I'm not going to exclude either, but I will say that it definitely includes His eternal power. Look at the verse. Jesus does what He sees the Father doing. It doesn't say the Father gives Him the power to do it. It just says the Son sees what the Father does and then repeats it. Who could possibly do this except the Father's equal? No man, no angel, no god, could say, “Look, the Father just created the heavens. I think I'll do that.” And it's not as if the Father hides some things that He does from the Son and reveals others, for He shows the Son all things that He is doing. John 5:20.

Again, it sounds like your objection to Jesus' equality with the Father is based on His dependence on the Father, shown in 5:19-20 by Him doing only what He sees the Father doing. But it is the testimony of the ecumenical creeds that they are one God, so the persons must be dependent on each other. If they were independent persons, I don't think they would be one God. But they are one. John 10:30. And if you study the statements in 5:19-20, you see that the end result is that the Father and the Son both do exactly the same thing.

Finally, Hebrews 1:3 says the Son is the exact representation of the Father's hypostasis (which can mean substance/essence or person). The church fathers said there were three hypostases in the Godhead and one homoousion (substance). This is what the Nicene creed says, one substance, homoousion (consubstantial). Not one hypostasis. So it makes sense that Hebrews 1:3 is saying the Son is another hypostasis exactly representing the Father.

And regarding the history of the Nicene Council, we know there were pagan influences in the empire, but this was a council of Christian bishops. They decided what to say. Arius was there too. He had a hearing and was rejected. He was banished, but not for long. Constantine was hardly an adamant Trinitarian. He invited Arius back out of exile, and his successors Constantius and Valens were Arians. Athanasius was banished from Alexandria five times by Arians. Trinitarianism survived in spite of Arian control of the Roman empire.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
So a weak impotent man had to be anointed by God to “become again” FULLY GOD?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Peter and Paul raised men from the dead.
Surely by the standards you apply to Jesus their powers would prove to you that they are God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2007,07:36)

Hi Tim2, So a weak impotent man had to be anointed by God to “become again” FULLY GOD?

NH

According to you he was always just a weak impotent man, just an empty shell, and an empty vessel that the Father poured his power into.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2007,07:39)

Hi Tim2, Peter and Paul raised men from the dead. Surely by the standards you apply to Jesus their powers would prove to you that they are God?

NH

Did Peter and Paul take claim to raising the dead?

Did they say this…

Jn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jn 5:
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Why do you seek to make Jesus just another anointed prophet or apostle and compare him to mortal flesh?

Why dont you honour him as you honour the Father?

When all of creation is casting their crowns before him in worship, will you be saying “Jesus why are you in the throne being worshipped” you are not the Father”?

[kenrch]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2007,05:28)

Quote (kenrch @ April 28 2007,01:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,04:20) Quote (kenrch @ April 27 2007,01:20) Oh Yeah! The Harlot has done a wonderful job… of separating the body of Christ!  Why are there sooooo many denominations? The reason there is so much confusion is the false doctrines of the whore.   The true church KEEP the Commandments of God NOT “CHANGE” the Commandments of God! Dan. 7:25 Rev 12:17  Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Tim2 you say we should NOT be led of the Spirit but of men. Your church has lied to you God is not three persons. You have the Father, Son, and the NO Name Third Person Who your church says is the Holy Spirit.  A person with no name, TIM!  Come On! Does God expect you to know a person that has not a name?  If you new the Holy Spirit you would know that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah.  That is the Holy Spirit's name Jehovah!  Not Blank! You asked me to “spell out the resurrection day” I have done so and have given you the time that you asked for to reserch the Truth.  But I have not heard from you. You are evading the Truth because the truth shows the lies of the Harlot your church and her false doctrines. There are SO many Protestants that agree!  “Many are they that find that wide path that leds to destruction”. THE CROWD: Mat 7:13  Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: You go along with “the crowd” that is going off a cliff instead of going against those who teach false doctrines.  Which is harder?  The Apostles were curcified for the truth what side was the “crowd “on?  The Harlot slaughted saints because of the truth. Again what side was “the crowd”? When your church crucified Jesus what side was the crowd on?  That's right your church.  The Roman Universal Church. The LAST message: Come out of her! IHN&L Ken K You say… Quote Oh Yeah! The Harlot has done a wonderful job… of separating the body of Christ!  Why are there sooooo many denominations? So are you saying the denominations are “The Body Of Christ” divided. I thought you said the are daughters of the whore and they are all going to hell unsless they repent follow your commands.     You just don't get it do you?  In a way I'm glad, however I must try to have you understand. Come out of her MY people.  What does MY PEOPLE mean WJ? Come out of her, THE HARLOT.  MY PEOPLE, those who seek God but are deceived. The apostles asked Jesus what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world. Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? What was the very FIRST thing Jesus said? Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. BE not deceived!  Many will come “in my name” 'saying Jesus is the Christ but will misslead many'. If you believe that many come and claim to BE Jesus Christ then what is your definition of many? I could count false christ on one hand. **The first sign of the end is that MANY will come in the name of Jesus saying that Jesus IS the Christ and will Misslead MANY.** Has that happened WJ? IHN&L, Ken K Jn 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and *the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out* 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and *the sheep follow him: for they know his voice* 5 and a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 *My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me* 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, *neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand* 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and *no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand* 30 I and my Father are one. I don’t think you share the same sentiment about the Lords people as Jesus. You can rant and rave all you like about people coming out of her, and it will not change the truth of God that he knows his own and they know him and follow him. He left the 99 to save the one. That means that none will be lost. You say… Quote You just don't get it do you?  *In a way I'm glad*, however I must try to have you understand. This sta tement is proof that you are not of the same Spirit as Jesus. In a way you are glad what? That I don’t know the truth, or I am going to hell? All I hear you do on this forum is preach condemnation to everyone that doesn’t agree with your truth, as if you are a prophet or something. *Come out of her.* What, come out from what we believe to follow your brand of truth and your spirit of condemnation and judgment to every believer who disagrees with you.? I don’t think so. Who made you a prophet over us? Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Jesus knows his own and they follow him and they hear his voice. You would do well not to continue spewing your poison out against them lest you find your self putting your finger in the apple of God’s eye.

WJ Jesus came as a lamb the first time. How is He coming the second time?

You talk about Jesus but refuse to keep His commandments.

Jesus said HE DOESN'T KNOW YOU WJ!

Read it for yourself!

Mat 7:20  Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Mat 7:21  “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'

Mat 7:23  And then will I declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS.'

Mat 7:24  “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

You belong to the Harlot!  Tell me WJ why to you keep Sunday?  Who can make a day separate it from the week and make it Holy?  The POPE?  That's what you say!  Jesus says HE NEVER knew you, worker of lawlessness!

You reject the truth to keep your tradition of your Mother the Harlot.

Why is it the Harlot does exactly the oppsite of what Jesus said NOT to do?  And you follow her!

Jesus said:
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes who desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the first seats in the synagogues, and the chief places at the feasts;

What do the catholics do?

Jesus said:
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

What do the Catholics do?

Jesus said:
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

What do catholics do?

Jesus said:
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

What do Catholics do?

Jesus said:
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What did the Catholics do?

They changed the law of God.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Why do you follow a church who does the opposite of what your Master says not to do?  If one is your Master then you obey, don't you? WHO DO YOU OBEY?

I never said Jesus wasn't God.  I said Jesus wasn't God the Father.  I even said the the Holy Spirit IS GOD!  I also said that if you baptize in the name of Jesus then you have baptized in the name of Jehovah.  Jesus was without measure FULL of God the Holy Spirit.  But Jesus is His own person just as you and I are.  The Holy Spirit is NOT a separate person.  If the holy Spirit is a separate person then the Father had no regard for “HIM” not even giving the poor thing a name!

The Father has a Name!  The Son has a name! So what happened to the “third person”?  You are so brain washed that you lack even common sense.  You see and hear with the Harlot's eyes and ears that she has given to you.

Go ahead keep following her my hands are clean!

[Not3in1]

WJ, are you Catholic?
Thanks.

[Cult Buster]

Nick Hassen

Quote

Hi Tim2, So a weak impotent man had to be anointed by God to “become again” FULLY GOD?

Nick. With this religion of yours, do you call yourself a Christian?
What do you call yourself?

2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“Why do you seek to make Jesus just another anointed prophet or apostle and compare him to mortal flesh?”

Was Christ a prophet?
John 6:14
Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Was Christ not flesh?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Did Christ not die?
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Yes he was all these things and he died.
God does not die.
God is ever immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Hi CB,
It is not what I call myself but what God would call me-hopefully a faithful servant.

[david]

“I and the Father are one.”—JOHN 10:30.

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commented: “Since He said ‘one’ thing, let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”—Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

[Tim2]

Thanks David. I'll try to learn more about Novation.

In the meantime, let there me no innovations in religion, eh?

[Tim2]

Trinity Verses

Direct statements of one God and three persons:  
(explicitly state the doctrine of the ecumenical creeds)

-Direct statements of the oneness of God:        Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc.
-no other gods:Isaiah  44:6

-Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God:           Matthew 28:19

-Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son:                              John 10:30

-Direct statements of the deity of the Son:    John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18

-Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2
John 14:26

Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit:
(imply the doctrine of the ecumenical creeds)

-Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit:      Acts 5:4-5
    2 Corinthians 3:17

-Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son:      John 17:10
     John 16:15
      John 5:18
       John 5:19
       John 5:21
       John 5:23

-Shared glory between the Father and the Son:      John 17:5
cf.  Isaiah 42:8

-Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life:  Acts 5:15
-omniscience:   John 16:30
  John 21:17
   -power and wisdom of God:  1 Cor 1:24

-Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God:          Mark 1:24
cf.  Isaiah 1:4
-First and Last:         Rev 1:17, 22:13
cf.  Isaiah 44:6
-Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:15
         cf. Psalm 136:3
         cf.  Deut. 10:17
-King of Kings:  Rev. 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:16
-Saviour:     Titus 2:13
                     cf.  Isaiah 43:11
         

-Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son:        John 5:26

-Use of the divine Name by the Son:        John 8:58
-for the Son:Romans 10:13

-Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of/from the Father:              John 8:42
  John 16:30

-Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son:      John 14:11
     John 17:21
     John 17:23

-Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15

-(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son:      Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25

-every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day:   Philippians 2:10-11
     cf.  Isaiah 45:23

-worship of Jesus:Luke 24:52
John 10:38

-the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus:           Colossians 2:9

-Jesus existed in the form of God:         Philippians 2:6

-Exclusive works of YHWH performed by Jesus:Deuteronomy 3:24
John 5:19

Allusions and Hints to the Trinity:
(in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity)

-Allusions to the Son’s deity:  Matthew 1:23

-Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father:           Matthew 11:27
      John 1:18

-Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God:   1 Cor 2:11

-Jesus will be great     Luke 1:32

-Jesus used interchangeably with God:     Luke 8:39
-the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh:                Genesis 1:27, 2:24
-woman out of man and same flesh as man:             Genesis 2:23

Middle Ground:
(could go either way)

-the Son of God:  God of God, or creation/mode of God?          Matthew 16:16

-firstborn of creation:  as creator or creation?        Colossians 1:15

-image of God:  because He’s God?       Colossians 1:15

Apparent henotheism  
(tend to show multiple gods)

-multiple gods?        Psalm 82

Apparent Contradictions  
(pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity)

-The Father greater than the Son:      John 16:28

-The Son not omniscient?                   Mark 13:32

-The Father the only true God:        John 17:3
       1 Cor 8:6
Ephesians 4:6

-God the head of Christ:      1 Cor 11:3

-Son will be subject to the Father:    1 Cor 15:28

[Tim2]

I've updated the Trinity verses to take into account this startling revelation in Deuteronomy 3:24:

“What god is there in heaven or on earth who can do such works and mighty acts as Yours?”

Jesus does whatever He sees the Father do. John 5:19. Deuteronomy 3:24 forbids that Jesus be another god, for no god can do the mighty acts that YHWH does. So Jesus and the Father must be the same God. Jesus is also the creator of all things, and all things are through Him. But all things are through God. Romans 11:36.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Extraordinary the influence that logic and inference in given in resolving scripture.
It is not how we should do it but traditional habits die hard.

[Proclaimer]

The following link provides quotes from Christians who lived close the time of the original apostles. These comments are interesting in that they don't agree with the Trinity Doctrine.

https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-06.htm

---

I will quote some verses from Clement (ca 85 A.D) below:

[Tim2]

Sorry Nick, Deuteronomy 3:24 is pretty subtle.  You see, when Moses asks, “What god is there in heaven or earth who can do such works and mighty acts as Yourself,” he's using a rhetorical device to show that there is in fact no god who can do what YHWH does.  But Jesus Himself says He does everything that YHWH does.  John 5:19.   So, let's see, only YHWH can do what YHWH does … Jesus does what YHWH does … hmmm, you getting anything?

[Proclaimer]

First off Jesus isn't God so he doesn't breach the Duet verse and secondly Jesus (the son) does these only because God shows him, but not from his own initiative. So it is actually God doing it through his son. Likewise we (should) do what Christ does.

And when God works through us, we too cannot take the credit and if God works through the Church, then is the Church God too, because members of the Church can raise the dead etc.

Jesus even says that greater works shall some do than himself, so I guess according to your thinking that we need to add in more people to the Trinity God, which would mean that the Trinity is getting bigger and will no longer be a Trinity starting from the first person to do greater works than Christ.

It also seems to me that Trinitarians cannot grasp the simple fact that God works THROUGH Christ. They think he is actually God instead of realising that God works through him. They are blind by reason of them being led astray by teachers of men.

[Cult Buster]

What about the following t8?

Is 1:18  Posted April 23  2007

Okay short and sweet this time….

In the below passage Zechariah records a quite amazing prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

What’s significant (in the context of this debate submission) about the highlighted statement above is that the preceding verses (1, 4, 6 and 9) unmistakably bear out that it was a prophecy made by YHWH, and would be fulfilled by YHWH. YHWH foretold that they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will look upon “Me” whom they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced.

Zechariah 12:1-9
1The burden of the word of the LORD [YHWH] concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD [YHWH] who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2″Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3″It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4″In that day,” declares the LORD [YHWH], “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5″Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6″In that day I [YHWH] will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7″The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8″In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9″And in that day I [YHWH] will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

There is no mention of a secondary identity in the Zechariah's predictive prophecy. The “me” in “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” is YHWH. In the immediately-preceding verse YHWH affirmed “I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem”, which of course only the Almighty could accomplish. With that in mind, please consider Who it was that John taught fulfilled this prophecy:

John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

According to John, Zechariah 10:12 is a predictive reference to the piercing (vs 34) incurred by Yeshua during His crucifixion (“For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture” – v 36). Let me be as clear as I can here t8: Only YHWH could fulfill this prophecy, because it was made specifically by YHWH (through Zechariah) and of YHWH. It cannot be fulfilled by proxy, the piercing was to be incurred by YHWH and it is YHWH that would be looked upon. No one else, the language in the Zechariah text is unambiguous and does not allow for it. John unequivocally tells us that Yeshua literally fulfilled the Zech 12:10 prophecy at Calvary, but crucially He fulfilled it after His body had expired (v 33). The Roman soldiers and other bystanders (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) looked upon His lifeless body, but John and Zechariah tell us that this was the body of YHWH. So, the obvious implication here is: even His dead body was considered utterly divine, it was the body of YHWH. So any argument linking Yeshua's deity with His indwelling by the Holy Spirit is vaporised in this verse.

If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yahshua fulfills it, then He is YHWH. There is no other acceptable conclusion.

Now some questions for you t8:

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

Blessings

reason for edit – punctuation

Isa 42:20  Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

[Cult Buster]

And here are some quotes from the Bible t8

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

: TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Compare
Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
With
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Compare
Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
With
Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 18:6  When therefore he said unto them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2007,16:14)

Ken, I think I'm missing your point?  Sorry.

Not3in1,

“come out of her MY people”

The her is the harlot.  MY people are sincere people who are deceived by the harlot and therefore “MY” people are DECEIVED Christians.

This is the last day message!  Come out before it's too late.  Lest you partake of her plagues.

The last day message is here no one will have an excuse. It is the last part of the gospel message. It is being proclaimed world wide as I'm typing this instant and when it is preached over all the earth then the end will come.  No one will have an excuse they all would have been warned. But the pride of many will hold them back to the end.

Thus:
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those who teach that it is alright to break the “least” commandment will be the “least” in the kingdom.

Does that clear it up for you?

IHN&L,

Ken

[Author]

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