The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 25 2007,13:39)

Hi Martian,

You didn't respond to verses 5:19,21, and 23, so I guess you accept that Jesus is equal to the Father in each of those points, as well as His absolute equality with the Father stated in 5:18.

The rest of your argument seems to be that because some of Jesus' attributes are derived from the Father, that He is not equal to the Father. But this just isn't true. Sons are not less than their fathers. Perhaps for a time they are weaker and under their father's authority, but when they are full grown, they are everything that their fathers are. Solomon was no less king of Israel than David. The son of a polar bear is no less a polar bear than his father, etc. Likewise, the Nicene Creed confesses that the Son is begotten of the Father. Thus, all of the Son's properties come from the Father. Therefore he has the same nature as the Father, which is Godhead. We ought not to think that the Godhead can change with time. So there is no reason to believe that there was a period when the Son was less than the Father and had to grow into equality.

Again, equality does not mean independence. The Son is not independent of the Father. Nor is the Father independent of the Son, for the Son is His wisdom and power. 1 Corinthians 1:24. And all things are through the Son. 1 Corinthians 8:6.

The other sense in which Jesus derived qualities from the Father does relate to His status as man. Don't you believe that Jesus was a man, just like us? Hebrews 2:17. And it was necessary for this man to have all things put in subjection under Him. Psalm 8:6. Hebrews 2:8. Hence, Jesus couldn't just exercise authority because He was God. He had to fulfill the Scriptures, that all authority would be given to the Son of Man. John 5:27.

You believe that Jesus emptied Himself of selfishness and empty conceit? So Jesus was selfish and full of empty conceit? Wow. No, Paul explicitly says that it was His equality with God that Jesus did not grasp when he took the form of a slave and a man.

Tim

Tim states –
Jesus confirms this by showing three points of equality in the subsequent verses:
5:19 -Whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
5:21 -Just as the Father raises the dead, the Son raises whom He will.
5:23 -All men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father.
Jesus also shows other points of equality with God that are derived from the Father as part of His nature of being the Son:

Response –
First it is clear the source of Christ’s authority is the Father and not himself.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ” All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Second – None of these verses prove Christ had His own authority outside of His Father.
5:22 -The Father does not judge any man, but has given all judgment to the Son.
(Why does Jesus need anything from God? Isn’t He equal?
5:26 -The Father has life in Himself, and has given to the Son to have life in Himself.
(Why does Jesus not have loife in Himself without the Father? Aren’t they equal?)
And then, finally, Jesus' authority and judgment as man is shown in 5:27.
(It does not show His authority at all. It clearly shows the authority was Given to Christ from His Fasther. this is not equality.)

4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
   “You are my Son;
      today I have become your Father. 6And he says in another place,
   “You are a priest forever,
      in the order of Melchizedek.”

7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Submission does not mean equality.

I Cor 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
(Christ compared to Adam and called a man by God)

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
(Jesus hands the Kingdom over to God the Father. How can that denote any kind of equality?)

25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
(Even after the resurection Jesus is under God. How can they be equal?)

To Not3in1 you state this –Philippians 3:20-21 does not say that the Father enables Jesus to do anything. In fact, it says that Jesus has the power in Himself. 3:21 literally reads, “Who will transfigure the body of the humiliation of us [into] conformity with the body of the glory of Him according to the work of the power of Him even to subject to Him[self] all things.

REsonse –
According to ICor 15:25 through 28, the one who has everything subject under Him is the Ïather not Christ. the only reason Christ has anything in subjection to Himself is because the Father gave it to him.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
(If Jesus is equal with God, why does He need an anointing from God?)

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (God) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(God made Christ Lord and Christ. Why did He just not make himself Christ and Lord?)

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (equal?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(equal?)

Finally, please do not pull the old dodge of saying Christ emptied himself of His authority and came to Earth.

Look
at the context of the verses used to prove this point.
Philippians 2
1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

(So now Paul establishes that he is talking of becoming like Christ)

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

(based on the context, Paul is clearly showing that the emptying of Christ is of “selfishness or empty conceit” and not deity)

Actually I did answer your verses. I used the context and other verses on the subject to show that your primiss is contradictory. Obviously you are not used to reading the context of a verse to understand it's meaning.

Specifically – 5:18 – This verse is talking about what the Pharasees accused Jesus of doing. Surely you are not taking to heart the Pharasees accusations?

Jesus called himself the son of God and the Pharasees concluded that Jesus believed himself equal with God. This was the Pharasees conclussion, not Jesus’ ascertion. That is made clear in Phil 2 where Jesus points out that equality with God was something not to be grasped.
Verse 19 – Jesus answers their charge (that Jesus equates himself equal with God) by saying He can do nothing of himself. Verses 20, 21 and 22 are predicated upon the truth shown in 19. Jesus does all these things based on being shown/taught or given authority to do them by the Father. This is not equality but rather deligated authority. The one recieving the authority has no authority without the deligation.
From the amplified Bible –
19So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn].
Verse 20 – The Father loves the son and the Father shows Jesus what He (the Father) is doing.
Amplified – 20The Father dearly loves the Son and discloses to (shows) Him everything that He Himself does. And He will disclose to Him (let Him see) greater things yet than these, so that you may marvel and be full of wonder and astonishment.
Verse 21 – Now Jesus gets specific About the things the Father has shown him. He is more specific about the authority given Him.
Amplified – 21Just as the Father raises up the dead and gives them life [makes them live on], even so the Son also gives life to whomever He wills and is pleased to give it.

22Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son,

The Father has given judgement. this shows that unless the Father gives the judgement to Jesus, Jesus would not have the authority to exercise Judgement.

Verse 23 – Now God points out why God does these things.
Amplified – 23So that all men may give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, Who has sent Him.

In otherwords God gave authority to Jesus to do these things so that Men would honor him. He furthermore says that if you do not honor the son, who is sent by God, you do dishonor to the Father. This is understood in Hebrew culture that a son is sent with the authority of the Father. Notice it is the authority of the Father and not his own.

Verse 27 Again God makes clear that the authority Jesus exercises is that of His father and not his own.
Amplified – 27And He has given Him authority and granted Him power to execute (exercise, practice) judgment because He is a Son of man [very man].

Verse 30
Finally Jesus makes it vry very clear.
Amplified –
30I am able to do nothing from Myself [independently, of My own accord–but only as I am taught by God and as I get His orders]. Even as I hear, I judge , and My judgment is right (just, righteous), because I do not seek or consult My own will but only the will and pleasure of the Father Who sent Me.

Verse 43 – Jesus makes it clear again that He comes in the Father’s power not his own. this is not equality!
Amplified – 43I have come in My Father's name and with His power, and you do not receive Me [your hearts are not open to Me, you give Me no welcome]; but if another comes in his own name and his own power and with no other authority but himself, you will receive him and give him your approval.

Yes I do believe that Jesus is a man. Probably more then you! I do not believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God. Nor do I believe that God can become a man. All the authority that Jesus has was given Him by God. Just like the scriptures say.

Let me make Phil 2 more clear.

Paul is admonishing the saints on what kind of attitude to have. Do nothing of selfish or empty conciet And regard your brother's more then yourself. the use of these words is important.

Jesus did nothing selfish. Even with faced with death He did not use the power given Him by God to save Himself. He never sought his own will.
The words empty conciet are interesting too. The following verse shows the importance of those words. Had Jesus considered himselg equal with God it would have been empty conciet. Empty because there would be no truth in that stand and conciet in taking that power unto himself for his own purposes or needs.

The entire context of this section is becoming like Christ. If used as a proof text of Christ divinity, then you have seperated Christ from humanity and made Him different. He can no longer be a ligitimante example for the rest of mankind.

Jesus eludes to this pouring out of himself in Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
The Hebrew disciples understood that the blood represents the life.
Genesis 9:4
“Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
Deuteronomy 12:23
“Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

They understood that Jesus was refering to his laying down of His life. this is not refering only to his physical death but also to his desires for life, happiness and many ligitimate things we take for granted. All was sacrificed for the will of God.
In the wilderness He was required to give up the need for even the basics of life. Satan tempted Him to turn the stones into bread. Jesus knew he had the power to do it, yet did not use that power (form of God) for his own self. Most of us would have opened a bakery. He did not take into consideration his self or his own needs and desires. He did not use the power given to him for himself.

This is also a comparison between the first Adam and the second. Adam failed because he allowed Satan to tempt him to take upon himself the right to decide what was right and wrong for his life. Jesus completely lived by the will of God.

Tim states – Therefore he has the same nature as the Fat
her, which is Godhead. We ought not to think that the Godhead can change with time. So there is no reason to believe that there was a period when the Son was less than the Father and had to grow into equality.

Response – Is the Godhead perfect and unchanging? Then Jesus as part of the Godhead would be perfect and unchanging.
Hebrews 5:8-10 (Amplified Bible)
(Let me point out that the ancient Greek texts were written without punctuation or capitols. those imposed on our modern texts are manufactured. therefoe verses 8 and 9 should not be seperated but combined by the word “and”. )

8Although He was a Son, He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered and, [His completed experience] making Him perfectly [equipped], He became the Author and Source of eternal salvation to all those who give heed and obey Him,

(It seems that Jesus had to grow into perfection through his completed experiance

10Being designated and recognized and saluted by God as High Priest after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek.
(furthermore again God points out that Jesus was designated by God as a high priest. this was not something he had in himself. NOT EQUAL

Luke 2:52
And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Tim says –
Again, equality does not mean independence. The Son is not independent of the Father. Nor is the Father independent of the Son, for the Son is His wisdom and power. 1 Corinthians 1:24.

Response -,
Again you are taking this verse out of context.
From the amplified Bible –
22For while Jews [demandingly] ask for signs and miracles and Greeks pursue philosophy and wisdom,

23We preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, [preaching which] to the Jews is a scandal and an offensive stumbling block [that springs a snare or trap], and to the Gentiles it is absurd and utterly unphilosophical nonsense.

24But to those who are called, whether Jew or Greek (Gentile), Christ [is] the Power of God and the Wisdom of God.

25[This is] because the foolish thing [that has its source in] God is wiser than men, and the weak thing [that springs] from God is stronger than men.

26For [simply] consider your own call, brethren; not many [of you were considered to be] wise according to human estimates and standards, not many influential and powerful, not many of high and noble birth.

27[No] for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame.

The verses before and after 24 refer to the plan of God for the anointed one. Hebrew writers write in aligorical form. they are showing that the plan for the anointed one ie; the gospel is foolishness to many, but it is the wisdom and power of God. This is not saying that Jesus is literally the power or wisdom of God, but that Jesus is the perfect representative oif God’s plan and purpose. His life demonstrates the power and wisdom of god’s plan.

Tim says –
And all things are through the Son. 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Response –
Do you ever read the context of the scriptures you quote? This section of verse is diffeentiating btween the “lords”/idols of man and the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact the same word for “lord” is used in verses 5 and 6. Lord is not a title od deity, but rather means master or one in authority.
How does God differentiate between them?
Verse 6 – There is one God and we exist for Him. There is one Master by whom and through whom all things come to fruition. This is simply stating the obvious. Without our master,Christ, we would not exist for God, but our existance (if we had one) would be for other purposes.

4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The Greek makes it more clear, pointing out that all things come from God, but by way of Christ all creation including us have our meaning and purpose. It is through the completion of Christ ministry that the creation fullfills what God created it for.

Since you are not showing an honesty with the word, i feel I have wasted enough time answering your comments.

April 25, 2007 at 4:36 pm#50520

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 25 2007,13:39)

Hi Martian,

You didn't respond to verses 5:19,21, and 23, so I guess you accept that Jesus is equal to the Father in each of those points, as well as His absolute equality with the Father stated in 5:18.

Tim

Opps –
Did not mean to post all of that. just the part after the space. Sorry about that.
I had transfered it to my word processor and did not delete the original post.

April 25, 2007 at 5:59 pm#50524

Participant

Yahweh has revealed Himself throughout history. Because God reveals himself in an object or a person does not mean that object or person is literally God.
Certainly Jesus was a fuller expression then had been seen before, but this still does not require deity.

When Mosses saw the burning bush He reacted as if in the presence of God Himself. This is typical of Hebrew culture. Mosses looked away for fear of looking at God. Is God literally a burning bush?
When the Priests saw the Shakinah Glory in the Temple they knew God was there. Does that mean God is literally a bright light?
Why is it then that when God reveals Himself in the human Jesus Christ we assume He must be at minimum a hybrid half God half man or God become man.

Psalm 82 God tells Israel that they should be representitives of God in the way they relate with their fellow men. The should express the purpose and plan of God.

John 10 Jesus quotes Psalms 82 in rebuking the Pharasees. In essence the Pharasses should have been God’s representitives. They should have represented God’s character, and nature.

Scripture, speaking of Jesus, describes Him this way.
Heb 1
3He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

(An expression or an imprint is not the equal of the original, but represents it. Like a mirror image.)

4[Taking a place and rank by which] He Himself became as much superior to angels as the glorious Name (title) which He has inherited is different from and more excellent than theirs.

5For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?

(God established Jesus in a sonship position and gave Him kingly dignity. This is not equality but deligated authority. It is in keeping with Hebrew culture in which a son is made an official position.)

April 25, 2007 at 8:20 pm#50543

Participant

Hi Martian,

There was a time when I believed as you do. I thought that Jesus was just God's image, a representation of God, in the way man was supposed to be. Genesis 1:27. I thought the Father was God and Jesus was just His temple, the ark through whom I could reach the Father. Of course, Jesus is all these things. He is a man and our perfect high priest who brings us near to God.

But the word also speaks of Jesus Himself as being God. John 1:1. The Word was God. The only responses I've heard to this are (1) polytheism (Jehovah's Witnesses), (2) the Word ceased to be God (Nick), or (3) the Word was “divine.” But it doesn't say divine (theiotes). It says God, Theos. Thomas again calls Jesus God. John 20:28. The Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8. And He's called God elsewhere. Romans 9:6. Titus 2:13. 2 Peter 1:1.

Now again, the context of Romans 5:18 shows that Jesus is equal to the Father. You are guessing that 5:18 is the Jewish thought of Jesus but you have no proof. And Jesus' response affirms His equality. He does everything that the Father does. He raises whom He will. He is to be honored as the Father is. Your only response is that some of His points are derived from the Father. Derivation does not mean inequality if the one who derives receives everything that the giver has. And Jesus has everything that the Father has. John 16:15. John 17:10.

5:19 does not speak of any giving of authority as you claim. It simply says the Son does whatever the Father does. This means the Father does nothing that the Son doesn't also do. This is complete equality.

5:22 again says that judgment is given to the Son, and if you will look at 5:27, you will see the reason is that He is the Son of Man, who was promised this authority in Psalm 8:6. Hebrews 2:8. 5:30 finishes this line of thought by showing that the Son of Man does not judge on His own but does the will of God. All three of your verses showing subordination are about judgment, which we know to be the role of the Son of Man. It does not say anything about the Godhead of the Son.

John 5:43 -I don't know what the Amplified Bible is smoking, but all it says is that Jesus comes in the name of the Father. Power is not mentioned. Nevertheless, the name of God is power, and Jesus in His manhood came in the power of His Father and the Holy Spirit to show how a man might live in perfect obedience and dependence on God. Luke 4:14. Hebrews 2:17-18.

God did become a man. The Word was God. The Word became flesh. John 1:14.

Look again at Philippians 2:3 -“with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves.” Now if Jesus were not equal with God, it would not have been humility for Him to have regarded God as more important than Himself. But Jesus existed in the form of God. His humility is shown in that He did not assert His equality with God but humbled Himself by becoming obedient (thus regarding the Father as more important than Himself). If Jesus were inferior to the Father, His example would be one of obedience to a superior. But the context, as you show, is of equals humbling themselves to each other. So Jesus' example only makes sense if He is equal to the Father.

Your examples of Jesus changing refer to the growth of His manhood. I said His Godhead is unchanging.

1 Corinthians 1 is exalting the wisdom and power of God above the wisdom and power of the world. To those who are saved, they understand, and this understanding culminates in the declaration that Jesus is the wisdom and power of God. Don't allegorize the text away.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6

Quote

Actually the Greek just says “One Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things and we through Him.” And you accuse me of being dishonest with the word? And yes, in this context, Lord is a title of deity, for all things are through God. Romans 11:36.

Tim

April 25, 2007 at 10:22 pm#50567

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 26 2007,08:20)

Hi Martian,

God did become a man. The Word was God. The Word became flesh. John 1:14.

Your examples of Jesus changing refer to the growth of His manhood. I said His Godhead is unchanging.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6

Quote

Tim

Hi Tim2,
“Now again, the context of Romans 5:18 shows that Jesus is equal to the Father”

So in context

Rom 5
” 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Twice here Christ is called a MAN.
A man who by OBEDIENCE to God overcame sin.
Those reborn into him enjoy the all the fruits of that victory.

No where does it say here or anywhere else that men are equal to the Father despite your statement. That is a crass vanity.

He was GIVEN all things which means he is and was utterly dependant on his God. Being in THE FORM of GOD does not even imply equality with his God.

April 26, 2007 at 12:33 am#50582

david

Participant

Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God?

Because the Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31.

April 26, 2007 at 3:25 am#50595

Participant

David,

So YHWH does everything through another god? Can you say, polytheism?

Actually, all things are through God. Romans 11:36.

Tim

April 26, 2007 at 3:30 am#50597

Participant

Hi Tim2,
YHWH is indeed the only true God for US.
Are you among US?

April 26, 2007 at 4:51 am#50611

Not3in1

Participant

These past few posts have been extremely enlightening – thank you, brothers!

Tim, you say that I don't know WHAT Jesus is. Well, it might help if you give me your insight to this. As pretty much everyone here has differing opinions (an angel, an incarnation of God, a vessel of God, a man, a divine man, a god, and the list goes on).

I've been thinking about this today…..isn't it amazing that we are all using some of the same scriptures to point out the truth that we know? How is it that so many people can see something different in the same passage of scripture?

Tim, even amongst the Trinitarians there is confusion, I'm sorry to say. I have many prominent Trinitarians that read on my shelves and I have made notes where they differ from one another, and even when they oppose one another in their definitions of the Trinity. Unitarians are certainly accross the board in their beliefs, and JW's remain consistent among their group.

To me, this is a bit alarming. The Word does seem to lend itself to varying meanings – as we see here – and as history has shown.

We can quote scripture until the cows come home. We can tell one another that they are infering, and don't know what they are talking about all day (I do this too, I'm not excluding myself). But I wonder……how does anyone REALLY know the TRUTH?

If this board has taught me anything, it has taught me that there are many truths. Jesus is the truth. Who is Jesus? Again, there will be many views on who and what is Jesus. Who's right?

April 26, 2007 at 6:40 am#50624

Cult Buster

Participant

David.

Quote

Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God?

David, that is a question that you need to face up to rather than dance around.

It is clear from scripture that only God was involved in creation, therefore
the creator God of Psalm 102:25-27 is the same creator God of Hebrews 1:10-12. The Father identifies Him as such.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

It is clear from the above verses that Christ is the Creator God of Psalm 102:25.

Apostle John understood that Christ was the creator, the Almighty Jehovah.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The statement “All things were made by him” is an incredible statement to make of the Christ the Word. There was nothing in the created order that was not made by Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”

Paul states, another amazing statement describing Jesus

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

The Bible clearly tells us that only God was involved in creation.

Yes, Jehovah God alone created, so Christ is Jehovah God.

Look!

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

See also the following scripture.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Jehovah) God made the earth and the heavens,

We shall now see that it was Christ (Jehovah) who was the Creator.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD (Jehovah) made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD (Jehovah) blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Here scripture tells us that Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and then rested on the sabbath day (seventh day). And Jesus in Mark 2:28 asserting Himself as the Lord of the sabbath.

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath

This makes Jesus “the Lord thy God”

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

It was Christ (Jehovah) who created the heavens and the Earth and rested on the seventh day which He blessed, hallowed and sanctified: thus making Himself the Lord of the sabbath.

Remember that only God was involved in creation.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;;

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Try dancing around that!

Jesus the Creator; Lord of the Sabbath, is the Lord thy God.

Jesus was the foremost Person of the Godhead involved in creation.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

April 26, 2007 at 6:46 am#50625

Participant

Not3in1,

Trinitarians are the only ones who are unified. The entire Christian church agrees on the three ecumenical creeds and the Definition of Chalcedon. This is perhaps the only area where Paul's commandment for everyone in the church to speak the same things. 1 Corinthians 1:10. And these creeds have been universally accepted since the 5th Century. If you want unity, subscribe to the creeds.

This board is an example of what happens when people ignore those who have gone before them and try to find the truth on their own. God doesn't want His children to isolate themselves from each other. He wants us to grow together in fellowship, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. And He wants us to submit to the teachers He has appointed. Ephesians 4:11.

Jesus promised us that we would know the truth, and the truth would set us free. We can accept the plain statements of Scripture that Jesus is God (John 1:1) and not invent crazy departures such as “He was a god,” or “He ceased to be God” or “He was just God's plan” or “He was divine, but not God,” etc.

The entire church has agreed about this for 1500 years. Stop being stubborn and submit.

Tim

April 26, 2007 at 6:50 am#50626

Participant

Hi Tim2,
After the apostles who are the anointed and appointed leaders and teachers of God?

April 26, 2007 at 7:01 am#50629

Participant

Each church is led by its elders. I think presbyterian form of government is legitimate, as well as episcopal. Papist government is taking centralization too far, in my opinion. So churches are bound by their elders, presbyteries, synods, and bishops. Churches are also bound by their councils. So Presbyterians are bound by Westminster. Lutherans … well, I don't know, they follow their synods. But all churches are bound by the ancient creeds and ecumenical councils which were not rejected in the Reformation. The only one rejected, I believe, is the 7th Ecumenical Council, which permitted the veneration of icons.

So the bishops and presbyters throughout history have been God's appointed rulers and teachers over the church. They have individually been subject to error in their teaching, but their collective decisions (creeds and 6/7 ecumenical councils) have been confirmed or refuted as valid by their successive acceptance or rejection in history.

Tim

April 26, 2007 at 7:57 am#50631

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (david @ April 26 2007,12:33)

Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God?

This has been plagerised from the Watchtower document 'Reasoning from the Scriptures', pg 414. David, it is dishonest to submit a carbon copy of the writings of other men under the pretense that it's your own work. If it's not your own material that you're posting, and it frequently isn't with you, can you please just acknowledge the real author? Is that really so difficult? It's the honest thing to do….

April 26, 2007 at 9:48 am#50632

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 26 2007,19:01)

Tim

Hi tim2,
Is Christ divided?

April 26, 2007 at 1:20 pm#50634

kenrch

Participant

Oh Yeah! The Harlot has done a wonderful job… of separating the body of Christ! Why are there sooooo many denominations?

The reason there is so much confusion is the false doctrines of the whore.

The true church KEEP the Commandments of God NOT “CHANGE” the Commandments of God! Dan. 7:25

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Tim2 you say we should NOT be led of the Spirit but of men. Your church has lied to you God is not three persons.

You have the Father, Son, and the NO Name Third Person Who your church says is the Holy Spirit. A person with no name, TIM! Come On! Does God expect you to know a person that has not a name? If you new the Holy Spirit you would know that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. That is the Holy Spirit's name Jehovah! Not Blank!

You asked me to “spell out the resurrection day” I have done so and have given you the time that you asked for to reserch the Truth. But I have not heard from you. You are evading the Truth because the truth shows the lies of the Harlot your church and her false doctrines.

There are SO many Protestants that agree! “Many are they that find that wide path that leds to destruction”.

THE CROWD:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You go along with “the crowd” that is going off a cliff instead of going against those who teach false doctrines. Which is harder? The Apostles were curcified for the truth what side was the “crowd “on? The Harlot slaughted saints because of the truth. Again what side was “the crowd”?

When your church crucified Jesus what side was the crowd on? That's right your church. The Roman Universal Church.

The LAST message:

Come out of her!

IHN&L

Ken

April 26, 2007 at 4:20 pm#50638

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ April 27 2007,01:20)

Oh Yeah! The Harlot has done a wonderful job… of separating the body of Christ! Why are there sooooo many denominations?

The reason there is so much confusion is the false doctrines of the whore.

The true church KEEP the Commandments of God NOT “CHANGE” the Commandments of God! Dan. 7:25

Tim2 you say we should NOT be led of the Spirit but of men. Your church has lied to you God is not three persons.

There are SO many Protestants that agree! “Many are they that find that wide path that leds to destruction”.

THE CROWD:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

When your church crucified Jesus what side was the crowd on? That's right your church. The Roman Universal Church.

The LAST message:

Come out of her!

IHN&L

Ken

You say…

Quote

Oh Yeah! The Harlot has done a wonderful job… of separating the body of Christ! Why are there sooooo many denominations?

So are you saying the denominations are “The Body Of Christ” divided.

I thought you said the are daughters of the whore and they are all going to hell unsless they repent follow your commands.

April 26, 2007 at 5:23 pm#50641

Participant

Denominations are a great evil in the church. The ecumenical church should all be one. But there are differences that various groups have felt were important enough to split off from the church. Obviously the biggest differences are over baptism and the Lord's Supper, which if the church doesn't agree on, it's hard to stay one church.

Nevertheless, for all the denominations and differences over countless points of doctrine, the doctrine of the Trinity is unchallenged in every denomination. Who are those who challenge the Trinity? The biggest groups are the mormons and jw's. I know the mormons made no attempt at reconciliation with the church. They didn't try, like all the other denominations, to come to terms with the church and suggest areas for change. They simply claimed that their leader received a stupid book from an angel, and they just left and led thousands, now I guess millions, astray. I don't know how the jw's got started, but I doubt it was a group that broke off from the church.

And who are the rest of the anti-trinitarians? Thousands of stubborn individuals who think that only they know the truth and refuse to join in the brotherhood and fellowship that has existed for 2000 years in the church. One says of Jesus, “He is a god,” and another, “He was God,” and another, “He was God's seed.” Give it up already. Your personal impression from the Bible is wrong. You made a mistake. It's not the end of the world. Just admit you were wrong and join the church.

Tim

April 26, 2007 at 5:46 pm#50645

Not3in1

Participant

OK, Tim, you have my attention.

Tell me something, if Jesus is a “true” son of God – in what sense is he a “true” son. Of course given our definition of sonship (otherwise, God meant to confuse us).

April 26, 2007 at 6:35 pm#50648