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Greetings to all!
Since my last post, I have taken the time to read the ENTIRE discussion, and am now quite dizzy. But, I have come to a couple of conclusions, some more important than others.
Firstly, I decided to register, as I found it most annoying when people would post something under an unregistered name and then disappear as quickly as they came. I hate that.
Secondly, there have been points on both sides that have gone unanswered. There were a few “Trinitarian proof texts” that I was hoping to hear a genuine answer to, but there were also many “non-Trinitarian proofs” that were left untouched as well. However, of all the refutations on both sides, the Trinitarian explanations were always the most confusing, and sometimes downright misleading!
Thirdly, as I implied in my previous posts, the Trinity seems to rest strongly on inference and philosophical reasoning, rather than the plain teachings of the scriptures. The only verse in the bible that ever came close to stating the trinitarian doctrine in plain language has been a proven forgery, not found in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 16th century. (1 John 5:8) And even that verse did not speak to the entire scope of the trinity doctrine. However, the idea that Yashua, or Jesus, is a seperate entity from God – (see my next point for further comment on this) – and that he gets his authority and power from God, not from himself is repeated plainly throughout New Testament scriptures. Moreover, Yashua is always shown to have a god, and that his god is the God of all, including Yashua. The Trinity doctrine seems to have to bend in wierd contortions to accomadate these teachings.
Fourthly, Trinitarians seem to subconciously substitute the word 'Father' for the word 'God' in any passage that shows God and Yashua as two different persons. Thus, in the passage in Acts where Stephen sees Jesus at the right hand of God, they claim that God in that passage is suddenly a single person known as the Father, rather than God being triune forever and always.
Fifthly, I am not yet sure exactly what to believe about who Yashua was before he came in the flesh, but it is clear that the good news of the gospels declare him the Son of God, the Messiah who came to fulfill the divine plan of redemption. All else is inference.
I am still teachable, and I am still open to a response to my challenge that a Trinitarian gospel spell out the tenents of the trinity doctrine using the plain language of scripture alone. But, I fear the bulk of this dialogue has already taken place, as the most adamant advocate of the Trinity, Global, disappeared at least 20 pages ago.
I was sent to https://heavennet.net/answers/answer08.htm
as an answer to trinity. This is a discussion on my board as well. I saw there were over 5 pages of replies and I apologize I dont have time to read all of them so I apologize if what i say is similar to others, but what do you think of this…
About me, I am a christian who believes in the trinity. This is what I posted on my board…
Trinity. God, Jesus, Holy Spirt are 1. No matter how hard it is for us to comprehend. There are a lot of christians who dont understand.
As the Father made our relationship with him dependent on our relationship with the Son, so the Son has made our relationship with him, dependent on our relationship with the Holy Spirit. As the Father shared his glory with the Son, the Son shares his glory with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being the educator, points the way to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ being the Savior, points the way to God the Father.
1 John 5:7—For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
There is one true living God, who is the creator, redeemer, sustainer and ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, all powerful and all knowing, and he is revealed to us as The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Thus, each person of the Godhead is fully God. We can distinguish between the three, but we cannot separate them. As distinct persons, each functions in his own unique manner.
THE FATHER—The Originator. He is our Heavenly Father and he is Jehovah God. He has made our relationship to him dependent on our relationship to his Son, in fact it was God The Father who sent God The Son down to earth.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
THE SON—The agent. The Savior. He was God who stepped out of heaven and thereby gave up all his power and glory that he had in heaven. He then took the body of a mortal man and allowed himself to suffer and be killed so that each one of us has the chance of obtaining eternal life.
Philippians 2:7 “Of his own free will he gave up all he had, and took the nature of a slave. He became like a human being and appeared in human likeness”.
These purposes for God coming to earth in the form of the man Jesus Christ is very well stated in:
Hebrews 2:17 “Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people.”
It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us, and instructs us so that we are soon filled with inner peace and joy. It is the guidance of the Holy Spirit who is going to change your character, your conduct, your personalty, yes your entire life. It is this Holy Spirit that is going to make the poor rich, the weak strong, and the lowly exalted. Who else would God the Father entrust with such an important a task as teaching and guiding believers down through the ages. This mission could only be delegated to one of the persons of the Godhead. And so as Jesus is called the Son of God, the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God.
As the Father made our relationship with him dependent on our relationship with the Son, so the Son has made our relationship with him, dependent on our relationship with the Holy Spirit. As the Father shared his glory with the Son, the Son shares his glory with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being the educator, points the way to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ being the Savior, points the way to God the Father.
God The Father is not the Savior of mankind. However God the Father did allow his only Son to come into this world and to suffer and die on the Cross at Calvary. God The Son was the one chosen by the three to take human form and to be sacrificed, thereby allowing mankind the opportunity to have eternal life. God The Son in the form of Jesus Christ became the Savior of mankind.
The Holy Spirit is the great luminary and magnifier of Jesus Christ and has taken the humble position of pointing a person to Christ. Jesus Christ in turn points the way to God The Father.
The Holy Spirit is the one who opens the hearts and the minds of men. The Holy Spirit is the one who educates and instructs a person in how to lead a life which is pleasing to God The Father. It is The Holy Spirit who tells the world about Jesus Christ, and he is also the one who convicts a person when that person sins. And it is The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ who guides us to God The Father.
At times it is difficult to tell whether the Bible is speaking of the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit. Christians gladly accept the definition of Moses in
Deuteronomy 6:4; “The Lord our God is one Lord.”
We cannot explain these mysteries and we never will in this lifetime. It is impossible to explain the Trinity because the human mind cannot even comprehend it, but we can think of some comparisons. A ship's rope gathers its strength from three strands bound tightly together to form but one rope. A flower may have three petals, yet they all unite into one plant.
In the Trinitarian view of God there isn't three Gods, but one God in three persons. For example let us assume there is a business firm with three officers—the chairman of the board, the chief operating officer, and the president of the firm. There are not three firms, just one firm, with one bank account, one charter, one advertising program, one building housing the firm, etc. Each officer however, is an executive, separate from the other two. Those who call on the firm may see any one of the three persons, or all three, since all three are working in unity and harmony for the overall good of the firm. When we get to heaven we can expect to see three distinct personages.
The Christian name for God is, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Notice that the very last words that Jesus spoke before rising up to heaven were instructions to the apostles to go out and baptize the world, and to do this in the NAME of the three persons making up one God.
Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit:”
It is also interesting to note that the book of Acts tells us that if we lie or try to deceive the Holy Spirit, then what we are doing is lying and trying to deceive God himself. In verse 3 of Acts 5, Peter is asking why the person has lied to the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land”.
And in the very next verse Peter is telling Ananias that by lying to the Holy Spirit he has in fact lied to God himself.
Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.”
Hello,
In Matt. it says, “Mary was found to be with child through the HOLY SPIRIT.”Did Jesus call the wrong person of the Godhead, father?
D.Welcome max2extreme,
Thank you for your clear response.I suggest you spend time reading other posts in this forum as most you will find covered.The biggest problem with trinity is that it is a new teaching added to the Word of God and that is anathema.
Even you say it is a mystery that cannot be understood. But the mystery has been created by the doctrine as it was not the teaching of the Old Testament and neither is it the teaching of the New.The word mystery papers over the cracks in the doctrine that are glaring. You cannot even tell which member of the 'firm' you are dealing with you say.
It is not the teaching of Jesus or his followers and neither is it spoken of by Moses or the prophets.It is an intellectually derived teaching and has it's devoted followers who believe that they can see it established throughout the bible once they accept it as 'truth'.
Where in any of the books of the new and old does it speak of the Holy Spirit having a separate existence in heaven-yet you are confident you will find it so?
Your trump card scriptures are false. The one in 1 John is known by all to be added into the bible and the triune baptism was not found in any bibles prior to the apostasy and compromise between catholicism and Emperor Constantine.
I know you are sincere. I hope you are also more committed to Jesus than the dogma of trinity.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 13 2004,09:35) Greetings to all! Since my last post, I have taken the time to read the ENTIRE discussion, and am now quite dizzy. But, I have come to a couple of conclusions, some more important than others……..
Well done with reading the discussion, I don't blame you for being dizzy. I appreciate your comments BTW. Seems you read the discussion with an open heart and gave an honest opinion. I commend you for that.I try to take the truths that are forged out of this discussion and add them to the Trinity Writing on this site. This writing was written before the discussion, but this discussion has enabled me to finely tune it and add new stuff. I dear say that it is not over yet, but I do look forward to finding out new things to add however. Here is that writing in case you or anyone else would like a condensed version of this discussion. It even includes the scriptures that Trinitarians use.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm
Your conclusion regarding scriptures that don't fit the Trinity Doctrine seems plain to me too. I don't claim to have all the answers and nor does anyone else in this discussion, but I know that the Trinity Doctrine is not the answer, and nor is it truth. If it were, there would be no conflict with scripture. It's that simple if you ask me. Weird thing is, in science a theory that remains true when tried and tested in many different ways is generally regarded as fact. They even allow for a small amount of error, (Although Evolution certainly fails that, and this is the reason why it is still called a theory).
But regarding doctrines, the Trinity doesn't stand when compared to scripture. Even the seamingly most supportive of scriptures are either frauds or are scriptures that are not fully understood regarding it's context or Greek/Hebrew?Aramaic meanings. But in plain language there are over 1000 verses that talk about God and Jesus as being different. Of those verses there are also tens if not hundreds of verses that teach explicity that Jesus has a God, that the Father is the true God and that Jesus was begotten of that God.
It's not as if we are trying to demote Jesus or to turn people away from him. It is about searching for the truth and upon finding it; placing it on a hill for all to see. Why should anyone be ashamed of the truth?
It is however comforting to know that Jesus Christ our Lord is also our brother and he interceeds to the Father for us. We have a Lord who knows God intimately and yet he became a man and dwelt among us. Yes how else are we to come to God. He is the perfect mediator and the only mediator.
The great commandment is that the Lord God is one God and the Gospel is all about Jesus the Christ, the son of that one true God, who saved us by dying for our sins and was raised from the dead victorious.
So many people would want us to hold to the creeds that were hammered out by men under the binds of carnal philosophies. But why should we follow them? Do we fear God or Man? Do we love God more than anyone?
I feel confident that the safest path of all is the truth. Departing from that path can only lead to problems at least or even seperation at worst. If we truly seek with all our heart, God gives us the truth in abundance. He is after all a generous God and he is love.
Why should we squander the gift that he gives us freely especially considering that he paid the highest price for our redemption and translation to the true path.
I wonder how many people realise how important truth is to God?
I also offer this link as a starting point if you wish to search out the matter of Jesus origins. Again this writing is a work in progress and will be added to when good things come to light.
To max2extreme,
I offer you the following quote:
Everyone knows you do not get cider from cotton. Yet, in fact, you can squeeze cider from cotton. However, you must first soak the cotton with cider, and then, lo, and behold, you can squeeze cider from cotton. That is how you may extract the Trinity doctrine from the Bible. First, saturate the Bible texts to be used with the concept; then squeeze it out. That is why Dr. Pelikan, who has been called “perhaps the foremost living student of Church history,” said, in effect, no one could find the Trinity by just reading the New Testament. You need the theologians to superimpose their theology upon the Word before you can find it there.
Thanks for the encouragement T8. I actually read your article, a while ago, as my first introduction to this site. Then I started to read the trinity discussion, discovered its length, and abandoned it for a while. But, as my questions continued to agitate my spirit, I decided to come back to the discussion to see what other believers had found in their searching.
You see, I was a “doctrinally sound” Christian up until eight or nine months ago when I discovered an article on the internet that went through every verse in the bible that addressed the the concept of hell and refuted my preconceived perception of it. In the midst of this shock, I discovered another article that effectively, through scripture, cast considerable doubt on the trinity doctrine as well. (It was on another site, not this one.) These two discoveries made me realize to what extent my doctrine had been spoon fed to me from men and tradition, rather than from the word of God itself. Ever since then, I have been on a quest to find biblical truth – to study the word and let it speak for itself. I am amazed daily at some of the texts that I have read my whole life that take on new and deeper meaning when I read them plainly, rather than reading them with my doctrinal blinders on.
Of course, like many other people that frequent this site, I am now virtually incapable of having a real discussion with any of my fellow church members on nearly any biblical topic because I don't automatically parrot off the expected answer. Aside from the internet, (where fellowship is shallow and accountability is weak), I am essentially alone in my quest to know and understand God's truth. What happened to the Berean spirit, where people search the scriptures daily to verify the statements of their teachers and pastors? After all, even Paul, an apostle of the Messiah himself, encouraged people to verify his doctrine using scripture! Is it pretty much accepted that all the legwork of our faith has been done for us, and that we need only trust in pastors and theologians to affirm our faith?
Anyway, I look forward to any further discussion on this topic by both sides, especially the Trinity defenders, as I have more questions for them than I do for you.
Hi Is 1.18
Lk 1.68 ” Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,for He has VISITED us and accomplished redemption for his people”Who visited us? God the Father? No Jesus .The Father has his Throne in Heaven. Jesus who came in the Name of his Father visited earth and brought salvation. He was in the Father and the Father was in Him as he was filled with the Spirit of God.
So when it says in Zech 14 that the feet of the LORD[Yahweh-The Father] will stand on the Mount of Olives it has the same meaning. Jesus is the Agent of His Father's work on earth-as in creation.
The term YAHWEH is not a descriptive name but a personal name. It is not a name for a group of godly beings but applies specifically to the Father and cannot be applied personally to Jesus as I understand it.
To say it means Jesus is to fall into the modalism trap that say Jesus is the Father ,which is patently untrue.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2004,14:55) Hi Is 1.18
Lk 1.68 ” Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,for He has VISITED us and accomplished redemption for his people”Who visited us? God the Father? No Jesus .The Father has his Throne in Heaven. Jesus who came in the Name of his Father visited earth and brought salvation. He was in the Father and the Father was in Him as he was filled with the Spirit of God.
So when it says in Zech 14 that the feet of the LORD[Yahweh-The Father] will stand on the Mount of Olives it has the same meaning. Jesus is the Agent of His Father's work on earth-as in creation.
The term YAHWEH is not a descriptive name but a personal name. It is not a name for a group of godly beings but applies specifically to the Father and cannot be applied personally to Jesus as I understand it.
To say it means Jesus is to fall into the modalism trap that say Jesus is the Father ,which is patently untrue.
However in the context of Luke 1:68 it is the one GOD, the Father, who had visited. To say that GOD had visited means GOD has intervened … GOD has performed some divine act or miracle … in this case it was the conception of John the Baptist and the conception of Jesus the Messiah …Almighty GOD was instrumental in these situations … hence GOD the Father had visited!
Here are some examples of this usage …
Gen 50:24-25, Exo 13:19When GOD performed mighty miracles through Jesus, such as raising the dead, the people responded, (Luke 7:16) And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Although I agree that Jesus is indeed the Agent of the Father's work; Luke 1:68 is not speaking of Jesus. It is speaking of YAHWEH visiting, YAHWEH intervening … resulting in the conceptions of Messiah and John the Baptist
Yours In Messiah
Adam PastorQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2004,17:26) Welcome max2extreme,
Thank you for your clear response.I suggest you spend time reading other posts in this forum as most you will find covered.The biggest problem with trinity is that it is a new teaching added to the Word of God and that is anathema.
Even you say it is a mystery that cannot be understood. But the mystery has been created by the doctrine as it was not the teaching of the Old Testament and neither is it the teaching of the New.The word mystery papers over the cracks in the doctrine that are glaring. You cannot even tell which member of the 'firm' you are dealing with you say.
It is not the teaching of Jesus or his followers and neither is it spoken of by Moses or the prophets.It is an intellectually derived teaching and has it's devoted followers who believe that they can see it established throughout the bible once they accept it as 'truth'.Where in any of the books of the new and old does it speak of the Holy Spirit having a separate existence in heaven-yet you are confident you will find it so?
Your trump card scriptures are false. The one in 1 John is known by all to be added into the bible and the triune baptism was not found in any bibles prior to the apostasy and compromise between catholicism and Emperor Constantine.
I know you are sincere. I hope you are also more committed to Jesus than the dogma of trinity.
Acts 2:38
Satan's Favorite Bible Verse“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)
The above verse of scripture is a favorite among many religious groups. One can hear it several times on Sunday morning radio programs, as well as from the pulpits of numerous groups, and it can be found in much religious literature. The verse is a favorite because, on the surface, it seemingly states that one must be baptized in order to be saved, and without baptism one is not saved. So, those who believe that water baptism is essential for salvation make it a regular habit of using Acts 2:38 as scriptural support.
The problem is that Acts 2:38 isn't the only verse in the Bible which deals with salvation. While many claim to “speak where the scriptures speak and remain silent where the scriptures are silent,” they practically ignore most of the New Testament teaching on salvation. The only verses that such false teachers quote and reference are the ones they feel they can use to promote their “water gospel.” The fact is that most of what the New Testament says about salvation doesn't include baptism at all! (John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.), and the few places that do mention water baptism do not include it as part of one's salvation. Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps of obedience for the new believer.
In spite of this obvious truth, the cultists remain steadfast in their heresy, insisting that Acts 2:38 sets forth water baptism as a requirement for salvation. Thus, this verse of scripture has become Satan's favorite Bible verse. In fact, many are trusting water baptism alone for the salvation of their souls! Indeed, Satan has deceived multitudes by his perversion of Acts 2:38.
Rather than ignore Acts 2:38 by quoting “our favorite verses” instead, it is more appropriate to facethis popular verse of scripture and see if the cultists are right in what they claim it teaches.
The Truth about Acts 2:38
First, please notice that verse 38 isn't the only verse in Acts 2. In Peter's message, a great deal was said before verse 38 came out of his mouth. In fact, he even told his listeners how to be saved before verse 38! In Acts 2:21, Peter quotes from Joel 2 and says, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” His words preceding verse 38 were so convicting that his listeners were “pricked in their heart” in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a misrepresentation of God's word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone.
Another error that many make with Acts 2:38 is the error of assumption. It is assumed that the word “for” must mean “in order to get.” That is, being baptized “for” the remission of sins supposedly means to be baptized “in order to get” remission of sins. However, a closer look at the scriptures will reveal that this isn't the case at all.
Notice Luke 5:12-14: “And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.” Jesus made this man clean in verse 13, yet in the next verse, verse 14, Jesus tells him to go offer a sacrifice “for thy cleansing” as a “testimony.” Here the word “for” cannot mean “in order to get” because he had already gotten his cleansing in verse 13! It obviously meant “because of” his cleansing. If a man goes to jail “for stealing,” then he goes there “because of” the stealing that he's already done, not “in order to get” a chance to steal again.
Some like to argue that the Greek word “eis” means “in order to,” but this isn't always the case. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.” The Greek word for “at” is “eis.” Does this mean that the men of Nineveh repented “in order to get” the preaching of Jonah? No, they repented “because of” the preaching of Jonah. So, even “the Greek” doesn't demand the popular interpretation of Acts 2:38. The word “for” can be used different ways, not just one, so it is wrong to assume that it must mean “in order to get” in Acts 2:38.
Another factor which is commonly ignored is the JEWISH factor. Every person in Acts 2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew. In fact, they are all gathered together to observe a JEWISH FEAST called Pentecost (verse 1). A fair reading of the whole chapter (especially verses 4, 14, and 36) will clearly reveal that no Gentiles (non Jews) are present. Since this involves Jews, it involves a NATION (verse 36!!), not individuals. No one asked, “What must I do to be saved?” The question asked concerned the NATION of Israel: “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (verse 37) Not, “What shall I do,” but rather, “What shall WE do?” Acts 2 presents a NATION of people who come to realize that they have murdered their blessed Messiah and they're asking what THEY must do. It's a question concerning NATIONAL salvation. Isaiah 66:8 says, “. . . shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.” The “nation” is Israel! Romans 11:26 says, “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” Acts 2:38 is dealing with NATIONAL salvation. The Messianic Kingdom is still available to the Jews (until Acts 7:60 when they kill Stephen), so national salvation remains an issue until then.
This is clear from what follows Acts 7. In Acts 8, an individual from Africa is saved (before baptism). In Acts 9,
an individual from Asia is saved (before baptism). In Acts 10, an individual from Europe is saved (before baptism). Why didn't these individual conversions occur before Acts 7? Because the first seven chapter of Acts deal with Israel (1:6-8; 2:36; 3:12; 4:8-10; 5:31; 6:7-14; 7:1-60). The question of INDIVIDUAL salvation is asked and answered in Acts 16:30-31: “. . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Those who fail to make this distinction are guilty of violating II Timothy 2:15 where we are told to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth.The Bible says the gospel is to go to the Jew FIRST (Rom. 1:16), so they are the FIRST to receive the gospel in the book of Acts (chapter 2), but they are not the last to receive it. Acts doesn't end with chapter 2, so we should be cautious of anyone who develops their doctrine in Acts 2 while practically ignoring the next 26 chapters! If God didn't stop in Acts 2, then why does anyone else? Could it be that the later chapters in Acts contain information which the cultists want hidden from us? Could it be that there are other scriptures in Acts which do not agree with the wording of Acts 2:38? Could it be that Peter himself, the one preaching in Acts 2:38, says something different when speaking to individual Gentiles like you and me? One only has to read Acts chapter 10 to get the answer. Peter is preaching again in Acts 10, except only to individual Gentiles, and something very interesting occurs. In Acts 2:38, the Holy Ghost was promised to be given to the converts AFTER they were baptized, yet in Acts 10:44 the Holy Ghost falls upon the Gentiles BEFORE they are baptized! Now, Paul tells us in Romans 8:9, ” . . .if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Having God's Spirit is synonymous with belonging to God or being saved (John 3:6-8), so the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved BEFORE they were baptized in water. Why don't the Acts 2:38 cultists ever point this out? Answer: It destroys their perverted doctrine that water baptism is essential for salvation.
The fact is that Acts 2:38 is NOT the “model” plan of salvation, nor are any of the other “water verses” which the cultists use. Only by taking such verses out of their context can one teach such heresy. All of the Bible is true, not just the favorite “proof texts” of the cults. Baptism saves no one. It only serves as a testimonial picture of the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ AFTER one has believed on Christ (Acts 8:36-38). Paul said in I Corinthians 1:17 that “. . . Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” This “gospel” is defined by Paul in I Corinthians 15:1-4, and it does NOT include water baptism. The dying thief was not baptized, yet Jesus saved him (Luke 23:42-43), and John wrote that we are washed in the BLOOD of Christ (Rev. 1:5), not in the water. In fact, the saints in Heaven claim to have gotten there by the blood of Jesus (Rev. 5:9), not by water. By faith in the blood of Jesus Christ one is saved (Rom. 3:25). Water baptism only follows this faith as an outward step of obedience.
Friend, if you have fallen for the water gospel, why not repent of your sin and trust Jesus Christ alone? Acts 10:43 says, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” Why not believe on Christ 100% right now and quit trusting something you DO for salvation? “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:1) Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Romans 10:9-13 says,”That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Why not right now?
WhatIsTrue – Welcome.
You may find the following sites of interest if you have not already come across them:
http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/
http://www.onhigh.org/articles.htm
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god1.html
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cmadd01/lessons.html
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/baixeras/colossians.htmlMay YHWH guide you in your search.
Shalom
Hi Adam,
The scripture from Lk 7.15 you quoted can tell us more.
1 Fear seized the observers.-an appropriate reaction to evidence of God's visible work among men.
2.The observers praised God-also very appropriate as God showed his mercy and power.
3.But they said
” A great prophet has risen among us. God has visited His people”.
They had previous experience of God's Spirit . The prophets of old had been filled with the Spirit of God and they had seen God's work through their human hands.But they did not say to Jesus “you must be God” or worship Him.
They gave glory to the source of Jesus's power-The Father- whom they knew as God. That also was the appropriate response and we can learn from it.
Hi I Am!!!,
It is good that you agree that baptism is necessary as the first act of obedience for a believer. Your opinion seems to be that it is not necessary for salvation. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ says otherwise and demonstrates that meaning in our handbook -The book of Acts.The book is full of examples of salvation and in all of them baptism follows immediately.You teach another and very popular gospel.The results of Peter's preaching in Acts 2.27 follows 4 verses later
” And then those who had received his Word were BAPTISED and there were added that day about 3000 souls”Even the jailor in Acts 16 who was told ” believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved”
[which is the basis of the false gospel you and many others preach]
was baptised “IMMEDIATELY”
What did Phillip and the Eunuch discuss in Acts 8 about salvation that lead the Eunuch to say “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptised.”?
Why did Ananias say to Pauli n Acts 22″ And now why do you DELAY. Arise and be BAPTISED and wash away your sins calling on His Name”?
Peter also explained the need for Baptism in his first letter
“..a few ,that is 8 in all were brought safely through the WATER, and corresponding to that BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU,-not the removal of dirt from the flesh [or leprosy in your bizarre example] but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”Paul described it in Collossians as the circumcision of the new covenant and Galatians and Romans tell us we are baptised into Christ.
Those who interpret the Gospel as only requiring belief oppose the teaching of Peter, Paul and Jesus and have not read deeply into the scriptures or they would know that real belief requires action too. Not our works but that of our fellow believers to be baptised into Jesus.
In Zech 3 [and the prodigal son] we have a symbol of what baptism means. God requires we be dressed in clean clothes to be able to stand in His presence as He cannot abide sin.
Jesus said in Mk 16
“those who believe AND ARE BAPTISED will be saved”
I follow His teaching.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 13 2004,11:01) Thanks for the encouragement T8. I actually read your article, a while ago, as my first introduction to this site. Then I started to read the trinity discussion, discovered its length, and abandoned it for a while. But, as my questions continued to agitate my spirit, I decided to come back to the discussion to see what other believers had found in their searching. You see, I was a “doctrinally sound” Christian up until eight or nine months ago when I discovered an article on the internet that went through every verse in the bible that addressed the the concept of hell and refuted my preconceived perception of it. In the midst of this shock, I discovered another article that effectively, through scripture, cast considerable doubt on the trinity doctrine as well. (It was on another site, not this one.) These two discoveries made me realize to what extent my doctrine had been spoon fed to me from men and tradition, rather than from the word of God itself. Ever since then, I have been on a quest to find biblical truth – to study the word and let it speak for itself. I am amazed daily at some of the texts that I have read my whole life that take on new and deeper meaning when I read them plainly, rather than reading them with my doctrinal blinders on.
Of course, like many other people that frequent this site, I am now virtually incapable of having a real discussion with any of my fellow church members on nearly any biblical topic because I don't automatically parrot off the expected answer. Aside from the internet, (where fellowship is shallow and accountability is weak), I am essentially alone in my quest to know and understand God's truth. What happened to the Berean spirit, where people search the scriptures daily to verify the statements of their teachers and pastors? After all, even Paul, an apostle of the Messiah himself, encouraged people to verify his doctrine using scripture! Is it pretty much accepted that all the legwork of our faith has been done for us, and that we need only trust in pastors and theologians to affirm our faith?
Anyway, I look forward to any further discussion on this topic by both sides, especially the Trinity defenders, as I have more questions for them than I do for you.
Hi Whatistrue,
Hey, great post – i really respect the fact that you have revealed some background about yourself and admit you don't have all the answers, i can very much relate to this. Im kinda with you on the spoon fed doctrine, as i had a similar upbringing and have tested the trinity to see if it does hold true (im only 50 pages through the trinity thread though). Im trying very hard to be objective and devoid of preconceptions when I read the Word now. Im still on that journey of discovery too but I do have to say that im still very much in in the trinity camp (if there is such a thing) though, simply because, to me, the Bible clearly teaches the deity of Jesus. Moreover, the Holy Spirit appears to be presented as an actual person, with emotions – not some impersonal force. Looking forward to future discussions with you.
God Bless mate.
Is 1:18Quote (Guest @ Oct. 13 2004,18:36) Acts 2:38
Satan’s Favorite Bible Verse“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)…..
Hi I am,I was wondering if you could copy and paste this post into the following discussion, which is dedicated to water baptism. That way it will get a better response and I think that this certainly needs to be discussed and put into a discussion that is dedicated to that subject.
cheers and thx for that.
Hi I Am.
The visit of Peter to Cornelius shows that God is sovereign.It is the only example when the baptism of the Holy Spirit was given prior to Baptism in water. But the reaction of Peter says it all.
“Peter put the question at that point ' what can stop these people who have received the Holy Spirit ,even as we have frombeing BAPTISED WITH WATER? ' So he gave orders that THEY BE BAPTISED in the name of Jesus Christ”If ever God wanted to show that baptism in water was neither necessary nor urgent this was the chance, but instead the need for it was insisted upon by the Holy Spirit in Peter. Peter had taken a lot of convincing by God in the lead up to the visit, with a vision having to repeated several times, that the message was to be taken to the gentiles as well as the Jews. So God used this dramatic event to get that message through.
God's blessings have always been primarily for His Chosen People the jews and us gentiles are like the dogs eating the scraps-thank God for that mercy.
Paul baptised though later he left that easy role to any baptised believer and did the more difficult task of getting people to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't getting any easier with false gospels being much more palatable. The leper who eventually obeyed Elisha and bathed received his reward. Those who listened to John in Lk 7 and obeyed God's instuctions to receive his baptism welcomed Jesus. God's wisdom is shown to be true by obedience to Him.
But as the unbelievers said to Paul in Acts 'we know very well that this sect is denounced everywhere” What has changed?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2004,14:55) Hi Is 1.18
Lk 1.68 ” Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,for He has VISITED us and accomplished redemption for his people”Who visited us? God the Father? No Jesus .The Father has his Throne in Heaven. Jesus who came in the Name of his Father visited earth and brought salvation. He was in the Father and the Father was in Him as he was filled with the Spirit of God.
So when it says in Zech 14 that the feet of the LORD[Yahweh-The Father] will stand on the Mount of Olives it has the same meaning. Jesus is the Agent of His Father's work on earth-as in creation.
The term YAHWEH is not a descriptive name but a personal name. It is not a name for a group of godly beings but applies specifically to the Father and cannot be applied personally to Jesus as I understand it.
To say it means Jesus is to fall into the modalism trap that say Jesus is the Father ,which is patently untrue.
NH, This is what you wrote on Aug 1 2004 (Who is Jesus thread):
Quote At the end of Revelation Jesus makes a statement about Himself
” I am the Alpha and the Omega,the first and the last, the beginning and the end”This statement is also made in similar but different ways in
Is 41.4 ” I am the Lord, am the first and with the last. I am He”
Is 44.6 ” I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me”
Is 48,12 ” I am He, I am the first, I am also the last”The words first and last may be time oriented rather than statements about eternity-I am not sure. Now the Jews were unfamiliar with Jesus and would have taken these statements to be about the Father. But the later chapters of Isaiah are full of information about Jesus-the suffering servant.
Are these to be attributed to Jesus or does it emphasise the incredible unity between the Father and Son as expressed in John from chapter 8 to 17 and also in the terms “almighty God and everlasting Father applied to Jesus also in Isaiah? Do their names become interchangeable though their roles and authority differ?
So where are you coming from?
I don't need to apply my own interpretation to the Zech 14 passage below:Quote 3 Then the LORD will go forth and (5) fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will (6) stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be (7) split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.or this one:
Quote 9 And the LORD will be (15) king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only (16) one, and His name the only one. or this one:
Quote 12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will (26) rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. In fact the whole 14th chapter of Zech…..It needs no interpretation because it speaks for itself. And we know the LORD in question is, in fact, Jesus. This is confirmed in in Acts 1:
Quote 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, (20) two men in white clothing stood beside them.
11 They also said, “(21) Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who (22) has been taken up from you into heaven, will (23) come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
12 Then they (24) returned to Jerusalem from the (25) mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.No inference required on my part at all, im simply letting scripture speak for itself here. This is not an isolated scripture either (actually its a whole chapter). We also know that NT writers had no problem applying this name to Jesus also. Here are some examples:
Matthew 3:1-3, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:2-6 and John 1:23 cf. Isaiah 40:3-5
Ephesians 4:7-10 cf. Psalm 68:18
Hebrews 1:10-12 cf. Psalm 102:25-27
1 Peter 3:14,15 cf. Isaiah 8:12,13.
John 12:36,37,39-41 cf. 6:1-10
God Bless
Hey Is,
I thought you said you were reading the trinity thread with an open mind. Your hinges need a little oil as the door to your mind still seems closed?I still have questions too that I would like to know the answers to but I do know That the Father is my God and the God of Jesus.
How am I being closed minded? If I was refusing to accept the validity or relevance of a verse(s) bc it didn't fit my theology, then you could rightly make that accusation. Similarly, you could if I was twisting it or taking it out of context to make it fit my theology using my own unbiblical inferences. Im not doing that. Im letting scripture speak for itself here. That is being open minded. Isnt it?
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