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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,09:11) Hi Tim2,
Was Jesus not working in God's anointing but his own innate powers?
Did he not need God too enable him?
Your argument is with Jesus.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise
NHDoes it also accure to you that the Father does nothing without the Son?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2007,11:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,09:11) Hi Tim2,
Was Jesus not working in God's anointing but his own innate powers?
Did he not need God too enable him?
Your argument is with Jesus.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise
NHDoes it also accure to you that the Father does nothing without the Son?
Hi worshipingJesus you said…Zech 14:9
And the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be *one LORD*, and *his name one*.
You have already mentioned the “One Name”, now the above scripture says that there shall be One Lord and One name and YHWH shall be King over all the earth
Who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
He is Yeshua the Word/God, YHWH in the flesh.Taking PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION CHRIST THE FIRST FRIUTS OF THEM THAT SLEPT
QUESTION?
Dose It ever accrue to you that you shall not accomplish anything with out the Father David?Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Psa 89:1 ¶ [[Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.]] I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. :16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Psa 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. :5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
THEY kNOW WHOM GOD HAS SENT
Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. :12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. :13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired [it] for his habitation.:14 This [is] my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.Hi Martian,
You didn't respond to verses 5:19,21, and 23, so I guess you accept that Jesus is equal to the Father in each of those points, as well as His absolute equality with the Father stated in 5:18.
The rest of your argument seems to be that because some of Jesus' attributes are derived from the Father, that He is not equal to the Father. But this just isn't true. Sons are not less than their fathers. Perhaps for a time they are weaker and under their father's authority, but when they are full grown, they are everything that their fathers are. Solomon was no less king of Israel than David. The son of a polar bear is no less a polar bear than his father, etc. Likewise, the Nicene Creed confesses that the Son is begotten of the Father. Thus, all of the Son's properties come from the Father. Therefore he has the same nature as the Father, which is Godhead. We ought not to think that the Godhead can change with time. So there is no reason to believe that there was a period when the Son was less than the Father and had to grow into equality.
Again, equality does not mean independence. The Son is not independent of the Father. Nor is the Father independent of the Son, for the Son is His wisdom and power. 1 Corinthians 1:24. And all things are through the Son. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
The other sense in which Jesus derived qualities from the Father does relate to His status as man. Don't you believe that Jesus was a man, just like us? Hebrews 2:17. And it was necessary for this man to have all things put in subjection under Him. Psalm 8:6. Hebrews 2:8. Hence, Jesus couldn't just exercise authority because He was God. He had to fulfill the Scriptures, that all authority would be given to the Son of Man. John 5:27.
You believe that Jesus emptied Himself of selfishness and empty conceit? So Jesus was selfish and full of empty conceit? Wow. No, Paul explicitly says that it was His equality with God that Jesus did not grasp when he took the form of a slave and a man.
Tim
Tim 2 to Martian
Quote You believe that Jesus emptied Himself of selfishness and empty conceit? So Jesus was selfish and full of empty conceit? Wow. No, Paul explicitly says that it was His equality with God that Jesus did not grasp when he took the form of a slave and a man. Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Philippians 3:20-21 does not say that the Father enables Jesus to do anything. In fact, it says that Jesus has the power in Himself. 3:21 literally reads, “Who will transfigure the body of the humiliation of us [into] conformity with the body of the glory of Him according to the work of the power of Him even to subject to Him[self] all things.”
***********I'm not sure what version you are quoting from, but I used the good ol' Trinitarian NIV. It says ENABLE. Enable sounds true to the teachings of Christ who gave his Father the glory for everything he did, because he could do NOTHING in and of himself.
Does it also accure to you that the Father does nothing without the Son?
****************What part of ALONE includes other “persons?”
God stretched out the heavens with his own hand……….ALONE.
Hi not3,
Excuse my inference but why be Almighty God and have to do any actual hands on work Yourself?
Ownership and responsibility for the work is enough for the builder with a carpenter at His elbow.
Even animals and birds use tools.Not3 said:
Quote I used the good ol' Trinitarian NIV. It says ENABLE. The NIV reads: “who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.” The Father isn't mentioned in this verse or anywhere need it. The power that enabled Christ to do it was His own power. The Greek is:
kata thn energeian tou dunasqai auton kai upotaxai eautw ta panta
according to the working of the power of Him even to subject to Him[self] all things. (from Brown & Comfort's Interlinear NT)WJ is right that the Father does nothing without the Son. Jesus says it in John 5:19. And Hebrews 1:10 says the heavens are the works of the Son.
Tim
Hi not3,
Is this the same person who said this?
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Again your argument is with Jesus.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewiseExcuse my inference but why be Almighty God and have to do any actual hands on work Yourself?
****************Because Nick – he wants all the glory!
Hi Nick, I don't have any arguments with Jesus. Maybe I'm getting too tired, but I don't see your point. I agree with all the verses you quoted.
Hi not3,
And He gets all the glory.
1Cor 3
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
And Hebrews 1:10 says the heavens are the works of the Son.
***************Almighty God, himself, laid out the heavens ALONE. Read in Isaiah; God tells us he was ALONE. Not my words. I believe him when he says alone. Alone is alone. If words mean anything?
God works through Jesus. That is very different from saying that Jesus doesn it himself because he is God, himself.
Yes, God seeks glory. He wants glory for what he has accomplished – creation! Jesus does not seek glory, but there is one that seeks it!
Jesus has glory as the One and only Son of God.
God, however, does not share HIS glory with another!
The Father isn't mentioned in this verse or anywhere need it.
**************Tim, the Father is the SOURCE of Jesus. God GIVES all power to the Son. Just as Paul and Peter were able to heal and raise the dead, so God GIVES Jesus all power (for a time). God enables Jesus to do everything he is doing. This is the thread throughout the whole NT.
If Christ is TRULY God then God has threatened to chasten himself while he worketh?
Although he shall not withdraw his mercy from himself?2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. :13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. :14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: :15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. 18 ¶ Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who [am] I, O Lord GOD? and what [is] my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto? :19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord GOD; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And [is] this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?
Christ dose not appear to have equality with God here;
but maybe with His Father David?charity
Not3in1 said,
Quote And Hebrews 1:10 says the heavens are the works of the Son.
***************Almighty God, himself, laid out the heavens ALONE. Read in Isaiah; God tells us he was ALONE. Not my words. I believe him when he says alone. Alone is alone. If words mean anything?
God works through Jesus. That is very different from saying that Jesus doesn it himself because he is God, himself.
That should tell you something. Hebrews 1:10 says that Jesus created the heavens, quoting Psalm 102:25, which was referring to YHWH. So that's explicit confirmation that Jesus is YHWH. And then as you say, God created the heavens alone. But the Bible says that Jesus created the heavens. God created the heavens alone. Jesus created the heavens. If words mean anything, this means that Jesus is God.
Quote God, however, does not share HIS glory with another! Right. And Jesus had the same glory as the Father before the world existed. John 17:5. Again, if words mean anything, these words mean that Jesus is God.
Quote Tim, the Father is the SOURCE of Jesus.
I agree. This is what the ecumenical creeds say. You just don't understand what Jesus is. You insist contrary to countless declarations in Scripture that Jesus did not preexist as a person. Hebrews 1:10 itself says that Jesus was a person when He created the heavens.Quote God GIVES all power to the Son. Just as Paul and Peter were able to heal and raise the dead, so God GIVES Jesus all power (for a time). God enables Jesus to do everything he is doing. This is the thread throughout the whole NT The Son receives everything, including His existence, from the Father. But He receives everything that the Father has. John 15:15 -“All things that the Father has are Mine.” This is not “just as Paul and Peter …” Again, John 17:10, “All things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine.” This is complete equality. It means that Jesus is the same as the Father. Jesus is God. This is the thread of the entire Bible.
Tim
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