The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:15)

Quote Jesus is a man.  Of course he received authority and power from God.   But He's also God.  John 20:28. So, befor he was given this authority and power, how much authority and power did he have? did he have an equal amount of authority and power with his Father, and his God, Jehovah? And if he did, does this mean that after he was given this authority, that he would have more? do they have the same amount of authority and power? How did this all fit?

David and NH

Do you think that Jesus didnt have all authority and power at his command if he wanted it?

Jn 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath *given all things* into his hand.

Jn 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matt 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus could have used the power that was his, but chose nevertheless to say “Not my will but thine be done”.!!!

Both God and man. The Lord from heaven.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:40)

Quote Your cute little JW site goes against over 500 Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic tranlators who had credibility in tranlating the sriptures in the versions I mentioned. Jws didnt even have any qualified Greek and Hebrew or Aramaic Translators that brought you your hellish NWT. Ah, so you have no idea what you're talking about.  Nice.

David

Oh I do know what I am talking about.

Show us David who the Translators of the NWT are, and what their credentials were.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show.
The question remains did he always have them before he came
and if he was God who came without them
is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,17:37)

Hi W, I don't understand. So does Phil 2 say he had equal authority and power with God and put it aside. Then He was given authority and power by God as you say-was it the same he left behind or what? What was the point do you know?

NH

Same to you.

Its a waste of breath. You have heard the interpretation a million times of Phil 2, and you still dont accept it or believe it.

So move on!

[david]

Quote

David and NH Do you think that Jesus didnt have all authority and power at his command if he wanted it?

I think it was “given” to him, as the Bible says.

PHILIPPIANS 2:9
“For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position
DANIEL 7:14
“And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom,
MAT 28:19
“All authority has been given me
MATTHEW 11:27
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father,

Quote

Matt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The point is that Jesus had to be given these things.

Quote

Jesus could have used the power that was his

Yes, Jesus while on earth could have “prayed” to his father for him to “give” those things to him.

If something is yours WJ, do you usually ask to use it?

[david]

Quote

Same to you. Its a waste of breath. You have heard the interpretation a million times of Phil 2, and you still dont accept it or believe it.

WJ, I know about 5 times, I've pointed out Phil 2 to trinitarians, and what it says. Yet, they don't listen.

KJ reads: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Dy has the same wording. JB reads: “he did not cling to his equality with God.”) However, in NW the latter portion of that passage reads: “who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure [Greek, har·pag·mon′], namely, that he should be equal to God.” (RS, NE, TEV, NAB convey the same thought.)

Which thought agrees with the context? Verse 5 counsels Christians to imitate Christ in the matter here being discussed. Could they be urged to consider it “not robbery,” but their right, “to be equal with God”? Surely not! However, they can imitate one who “gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (NW) (Compare Genesis 3:5.) Such a translation also agrees with Jesus Christ himself, who said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28.

The Expositor’s Greek Testament says: “We cannot find any passage where [har·pa′zo] or any of its derivatives [including har·pag·mon′] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize,’ ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense ‘grasp at’ into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”—(Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,17:46)

Hi W, WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show. The question remains did he always have them before he came and if he was God who came without them is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God?

NH

Yes the one who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man and humbled himself even to the death of the cross.

You do believe the Almighty God is capable of doing this dont you?

You have never given us your interpretation of Jn 1:1 NH!

So either you dont believe it or you have your own mysterious translation and put your self above the credible and qualified scholars, over 500 in fact.

So do you believe all the scriptures NH?

What about Heb 1:8 and many more?

[david]

I just thought this was interesting:

“The first recorded use of the word [trinity] in Christian theology was in about 180 AD by Theophilus of Antioch who used it of “God, his Word, and his Wisdom.””–Wikipedia, under “trinity.”
–Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II.XV (retrieved on December 19, 2006).
–W.Fulton in the “Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics”

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Notice how he used the word. It was first used of:
1. God
2. his Word
3. his Wisdom

I guess sometime later, someone came upon the marvelous idea of incorporating this thought of a trinity (fabulously poplular idea in other religions) and changing it to mean God, the Son and holy spirit.
It took some thinking though, and time.

[david]

Quote

NH Yes the one who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man and humbled himself even to the death of the cross. You do believe the Almighty God is capable of doing this dont you? You have never given us your interpretation of Jn 1:1 NH! So either you dont believe it or you have your own mysterious translation and put your self above the credible and qualified scholars, over 500 in fact. So do you believe all the scriptures NH? What about Heb 1:8 and many more?

–WJ

What he was apparently responding to:

Quote

Hi W, WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show. The question remains did he always have them before he came and if he was God who came without them is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God?

I have no idea how the two are connected or in what way his “responce”? answers the question.
Did someone say diversion? I really actually truly would like an answer to this question because it actually truly does not make any sense to me, or logic or words, or normal common sense and meaning.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:47)

Quote David and NH Do you think that Jesus didnt have all authority and power at his command if he wanted it? I think it was “given” to him, as the Bible says. PHILIPPIANS 2:9 “For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position DANIEL 7:14 “And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, MAT 28:19 “All authority has been given me MATTHEW 11:27 “All things have been delivered to me by my Father, Quote Matt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? The point is that Jesus had to be given these things. Quote Jesus could have used the power that was his Yes, Jesus while on earth could have “prayed” to his father for him to “give” those things to him.   If something is yours WJ, do you usually ask to use it?

David

Yes he did because he was the Word/God who left his glory and power he shared as God and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

So you have the Son now speaking to the Father of which he was with from eternity and of which by him the worlds were created.

So each time you say that the Father is greater than the Son, then that appeals to his manhood because he is both man and God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:57)

Quote NH Yes the one who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man and humbled himself even to the death of the cross. You do believe the Almighty God is capable of doing this dont you? You have never given us your interpretation of Jn 1:1 NH! So either you dont believe it or you have your own mysterious translation and put your self above the credible and qualified scholars, over 500 in fact. So do you believe all the scriptures NH? What about Heb 1:8 and many more? –WJ What he was apparently responding to: Quote Hi W, WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show. The question remains did he always have them before he came and if he was God who came without them is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God? I have no idea how the two are connected or in what way his “responce”? answers the question. Did someone say diversion?  I really actually truly would like an answer to this question because it actually truly does not make any sense to me, or logic or words, or normal common sense and meaning.

David

John 1:1 should be enough evidence that Yeshua is God, if not there are many others which you are well aware of.

[david]

Quote

Yes he did because he was the Word/God who left his glory and power he shared as God and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

I'm sorry. I thought or was lead to believe that trinitarians thought that while he was on earth, he was still “fully God,” meaning a powerful one, mighty one, strong one, etc.

Yet, he had to ask for these things?

I think he truly truly really actually did, as the bible says, he “BECAME flesh.”

[david]

Quote

Quote David John 1:1 should be enough evidence that Yeshua is God, if not there are many others which you are well aware of.

i THINK you've forgotten the question:

Let's say for a moment he is God Almighty. Then:

Quote

Quote Jesus is a man. Of course he received authority and power from God. But He's also God. John 20:28. So, befor he was given this authority and power, how much authority and power did he have? did he have an equal amount of authority and power with his Father, and his God, Jehovah? And if he did, does this mean that after he was given this authority, that he would have more? do they have the same amount of authority and power? How did this all fit?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 22 2007,17:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,17:46) Hi W, WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show. The question remains did he always have them before he came and if he was God who came without them is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God? NH Yes the one who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man and humbled himself even to the death of the cross. You do believe the Almighty God is capable of doing this dont you? You have never given us your interpretation of Jn 1:1 NH! So either you dont believe it or you have your own mysterious translation and put your self above the credible and qualified scholars, over 500 in fact. So do you believe all the scriptures NH? What about Heb 1:8 and many more?

Hi W,
Actually Almighty God sent His Son
and gave our Lord all these things.
Acts 10
” 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

[david]

The Athanasian Creed (in English) says that its members are

“incomprehensible.”

Teachers of the doctrine often state that it is a

“mystery.”

Obviously such a Trinitarian God is not the one that Jesus had in mind when he said:
“We worship what we know.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:57)

Quote NH Yes the one who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man and humbled himself even to the death of the cross. You do believe the Almighty God is capable of doing this dont you? You have never given us your interpretation of Jn 1:1 NH! So either you dont believe it or you have your own mysterious translation and put your self above the credible and qualified scholars, over 500 in fact. So do you believe all the scriptures NH? What about Heb 1:8 and many more? –WJ What he was apparently responding to: Quote Hi W, WE agree God GAVE HIM AUTHORITY AND POWER as all your verses show. The question remains did he always have them before he came and if he was God who came without them is there such a being as a lowly powerless Almighty God? I have no idea how the two are connected or in what way his “responce”? answers the question. Did someone say diversion?  I really actually truly would like an answer to this question because it actually truly does not make any sense to me, or logic or words, or normal common sense and meaning.

David

Your religion is a diversion and its full of lies.

And yet you have the nerve to piously preach against trinitarianism as if you have the truth.

Your truth David!

Not mine for sure. I have seen JWs who have approched me in very rude manners and I think it is a very decietfull and hellish religion.

I am off of this merry go round!

[david]

Quote

David Your religion is a diversion and its full of lies.

CHANGING THE SUBJECT, AVOIDING THE QUESTION.

Quote

And yet you have the nerve to piously preach against trinitarianism as if you have the truth. Your truth David!

STILL CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, APPARENTLY.

Quote

Not mine for sure. I have seen JWs who have approched me in very rude manners and I think it is a very decietfull and hellish religion. I am off of this merry go round!

IT'S ALMOST AS IF SATAN HIMSELF IS SPEAKING THROUGH WJ.

If he can't answer the question, he should just say so.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So if ALL THE SCRIPTURES you provided show Christ was GIVEN this power and this Authority
where do you get the idea that he had always had it?
Phil 2 does not help there.
It does not mention either power or authority.

[david]

Quote

I am off of this merry go round!

I take it you simply meant this specific thread,whenyou said “merry go round.” Because you're still on this forum, posting away.
I think this particular thread became a merry go round because we asked some questions. You kept diverting. We kept asking.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
The trinity PROPOSITION has to be held together by INFERENCE as it is not written.
So it is inevitable that the hard questions will not always find answers.
The suggestion is that you stop defending it and be openminded.

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