The Trinity Doctrine

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,18:04)

Hi Is 1.18, What is wrong with the teachings already presented in the bible? Why are they not enough? Too simple?

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

NH, we both know that not every doctrine you hold is explicitly revealed in scripture…..

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,18:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,09:11) Hi W, Do you not worship the Father? Jesus said true worshipers do. NH Of course I do. He that honours, reveres, bows down to, praises, and worships the Son also praises and worships the Father. For he who “Loves the Son also loves the Father”. Jn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, *If God were your Father*, *ye would love me*: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jn 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, *even as* they honour the Father. He that *honoureth not* the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Honour 'timao' which means; 1) to estimate, fix the value a) for the value of something belonging to one's self 2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate NH. Do you put the same value on the Jesus as God? Revere means; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor Synonyms; REVERE, REVERENCE, VENERATE, WORSHIP, ADORE You should get used to bowing the knee to our Lord and God Yeshua, for the Father says let all the Angels worship him, and also the Father says “hear ye him”. Phil 2: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There is going to be a lot of praising Jesus there. Rev 5: 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, **Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing**. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Notice the same praise thats given to the Father is given to the the Lamb. This is true honour to the Father and to Yeshua!

Hi w,
Two deities worshiped at one go? wow

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
But you call trinity a FOUNDATIONAL doctrine.
Yet it is unrevealed.
What gives?

[Proclaimer]

Yeah.

The writers of the bible neglected to mention this teaching.
It's not in the Old or New Testaments.

Israel never worshipped the Trinity and neither did the first century Christians.

It is actually hard to believe that a foundational doctrine wasn't mentioned or taught anywhere and who could blame anyone for not believing in a doctrine that is not biblical. Who could also blame anyone for thinking that those who built on that foundation were being deceived in this area.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
It is amazing that a doctrine that is impossible to be proved from bible teaching is held to be foundational. Not only that but some adherents demand acceptance of it to be considered a Christian.

It would make a lot more sense if it was regarded as a fascinating for some, but unproveable matter, that can be put aside while we study what the bible does teach.

However since it relates to the nature of God Himself and affects the heart of possibly relating to God, that can never happen. It will either be regarded as essential truth or heresy.

[david]

The Encyclopedia of Religion states:

“Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity . . . Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

“Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ; ‘Father’ is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God. . . .

“In the New Testament there is no reflective consciousness of the metaphysical nature of God (‘immanent trinity’), nor does the New Testament contain the technical language of later doctrine (hupostasis, ousia, substantia, subsistentia, prosōpon, persona). . . . It is incontestable that the doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone.”
–Mircea Eliade, editor in chief, 1987, Volume 15, page 54.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,19:23)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,18:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,09:11) Hi W, Do you not worship the Father? Jesus said true worshipers do. NH Of course I do. He that honours, reveres, bows down to, praises, and worships the Son also praises and worships the Father. For he who “Loves the Son also loves the Father”. Jn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, *If God were your Father*, *ye would love me*: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jn 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, *even as* they honour the Father. He that *honoureth not* the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Honour 'timao' which means; 1) to estimate, fix the value a) for the value of something belonging to one's self 2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate NH. Do you put the same value on the Jesus as God? Revere means; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor Synonyms; REVERE, REVERENCE, VENERATE, WORSHIP, ADORE You should get used to bowing the knee to our Lord and God Yeshua, for the Father says let all the Angels worship him, and also the Father says “hear ye him”. Phil 2: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There is going to be a lot of praising Jesus there. Rev 5: 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, **Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing**. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Notice the same praise thats given to the Father is given to the the Lamb. This is true honour to the Father and to Yeshua! Hi w, Two deities worshiped at one go? wow

NH

So I take it you dont believe these scriptues?

Are you saying you wont be among the tens of thousands of saints that worships the Lamb?

Maybe you guys should study the OT scriptures for there you will find the trinitarian view also!

http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

[Tim2]

Well the Encyclopedia of Religion can go to gehenna along with every other heretic.

[Not3in1]

Isaiah,
Sure. Your point is well taken in accepting the kingdom as a child, and bible study.
Thanks!

[NickHassan]

amen,
Scripture but according to scripture.

[Tim2]

Here's an update with Luke 24:52

Trinity Verses

Direct statements of one God and three persons:
(pretty clear support of Trinity)

-Direct statements of the oneness of God: Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc.
-no other gods:Isaiah 44:6

-Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God: Matthew 28:19

-Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son: John 10:30

-Direct statements of the deity of the Son: John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18

-Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2
John 14:26

Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit:
(tend to support the Trinity)

-Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit: Acts 5:4-5
2 Corinthians 3:17

-Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son: John 17:10
John 16:15
John 5:18
John 5:19
John 5:21
John 5:23

-Shared glory between the Father and the Son: John 17:5
cf. Isaiah 42:8

-Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life: Acts 5:15
-omniscience: John 16:30
John 21:17
-power and wisdom of God: 1 Cor 1:24

-Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God: Mark 1:24
cf. Isaiah 1:4
-First and Last: Rev 1:17, 22:13
cf. Isaiah 44:6
-Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:15
cf. Psalm 136:3
cf. Deut. 10:17
-King of Kings: Rev. 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:16
-Saviour: Titus 2:13
cf. Isaiah 43:11

-Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son: John 5:26

-Use of the divine Name by the Son: John 8:58
-for the Son:Romans 10:13

-Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of/from the Father: John 8:42
John 16:30

-Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son: John 14:11
John 17:21
John 17:23

-Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15

-(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son: Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25

-every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day: Philippians 2:10-11
cf. Isaiah 45:23

-worship of Jesus:Luke 24:52
John 10:38

-the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus: Colossians 2:9

-Jesus existed in the form of God: Philippians 2:6

Allusions and Hints to the Trinity:
(in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity)

-Allusions to the Son’s deity: Matthew 1:23

-Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father: Matthew 11:27
John 1:18

-Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God: 1 Cor 2:11

-Jesus will be great Luke 1:32

-Jesus used interchangeably with God: Luke 8:39
-the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh: Genesis 1:27, 2:24
-woman out of man and same flesh as man: Genesis 2:23

Middle Ground:
(could go either way)

-the Son of God: God of God, or creation/mode of God? Matthew 16:16

-firstborn of creation: as creator or creation? Colossians 1:15

-image of God: because He’s God? Colossians 1:15

Apparent polytheism
(tend to show multiple gods)

-multiple gods? Psalm 82

Apparent Contradictions
(pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity)

-The Father greater than the Son: John 16:28

-The Son not omniscient? Mark 13:32

-The Father the only true God: John 17:3
1 Cor 8:6
Ephesians 4:6

-God the head of Christ: 1 Cor 11:3

-Son will be subject to the Father: 1 Cor 15:28

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2
“Direct statements of one God and three persons:
(pretty clear support of Trinity)”
NONE?

[Tim2]

Actually there are 10 in the first section. You should read them.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
The whole bible speaks about 2000 times about our God
so it is hard to find a reason to search for the unusual verses.

[Not3in1]

Good last point Nick.

But I do thank you, Tim, for these verses. I will take a look at all of them again. It takes some time to do this research, so thank for bringing it to the table for review.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Tim2 has told us that trinity is only a proposition.

“The Trinity does not propose three gods.”

Fine.
It is a theory.
So we should look for supporting teaching in the bible.

There is none.

So much for that proposed theory.

So I am sure he will withdraw the anathemas imposed on those who do not agree we should base our faith on such a weak foundation and perhaps he will join us in only letting scripture be our faith basis.

The writer of Hebrews did mention the basics of our faith

Heb 6
“1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.”

Not surprisingly the PROPOSED trinity is not among them.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Tim2.

Quote (Tim2 @ April 18 2007,23:38)

Well the Encyclopedia of Religion can go to gehenna along with every other heretic.

Maybe so, but you cannot disprove that quote can you?

Quote

“Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity . . . Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

If you are honest you would also have to agree that God is synonymous with the Father (in the New Testament).
See https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

You should also admit that it is indeed “incontestable that the doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone”. The truth is you need man-made philosophy to establish the doctrine.

Things may end up in gehenna as you say, but truth remains my friend. You can't hide the truth forever. Light always prevails.

The truth is that there is one God, the Father, and he has established that there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what we should believe if we consider Paul an apostle of the faith.

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
“-the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus: Colossians 2:9”

True.
Man is a vessel.
Then why would you claim he was the God who indwelled him?

We know other things can indwell us
Matthew 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

But he told us that God dwelled in his vessel.

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

So why not believe him?

[Not3in1]

Tim2 wrote:
Direct statements of one God and three persons:
(pretty clear support of Trinity)
**********************************

Tim, at least you were honest when you said “pretty clear support of Trinity” instead of just defending the scriptures as being so “clear” that anyone couldn't deny it.

Speaking of which, because they are not clear, it would seem only reasonable and fair if some had the choice to deny it. I am one that excerises that choice. I would like to not be condemed for it. Especially, since it is not a crystal clear teaching. Thanks.

[david]

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

I have all these quotes in full if anyone would like. It would take about 5 pages to give the full quotes. While these quotes are not scripture or to be compared to it, I just find it interesting that the Catholic Encyclopedia and the New Catholic encyclopedia which defend the trinity belief are forced to admit that it is essentially a 4th century thing, that it is not explicitely taught in scripture.
Do the Catholics believe in the trinity? Yes. Yet, notice what they must admit. Does the average Catholic know any of these things? No. It's quite sad.
And the Catholics that do know these things….yet don't care….even more sad.

david

[Author]

Posts