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We agree that the Spirit of God is not another Son – yet he does come forth from God. True.
And yes, the Son proceeded from God and then was born. Agree. I am simply saying that “proceeding from” does not negate my belief that God didn't “bring forth” his seed to help create the baby inside of Mary. Scripture does not refute this idea. In fact, it encourages this idea by giving us the genealogy of Jesus, and his wonderful conception and birth story.
Well, Nick, as always – it has been a pleasure chatting with you, and learning from you. I'm not sure what time it is in New Zealand, but it's about 11:15 p.m. here in WA State. I'm gonna head to bed now, but I'll check back tomorrow. Good to chat with you. Goodnight
Trintarians listen up. The time has come to put away your nonsense. We can see right through it and we are going to tell the Church the truth. You can't stop the truth just as much as you cannot overcome light with darkness.
No one here, including me, has the complete answer yet. So, yes, I believe it's good to keep re-visiting the issue. Wouldn't you agree? Or do you feel comfortable with your complete understanding? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I am only saying that sometimes it comes down to one word. In this case – The Word
t8, I was thinking about this yesterday…….how do you plan to tell the church the truth? Let me know how you're going to do it, and I'll join you, brother!
Quote (kenrch @ April 09 2007,13:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2007,10:39) I'll look for the Ten commandment thread. This is interesting to me. Because I just cannot imagine keeping the law. I mean, that is why Jesus was sent, is it not? There was something wrong with the first convenant and that is why Jesus was sent with a new convenant. I know that is written somewhere. Paul tells us that the Law produced sin, even (or something like that ) I'll do some digging here. I just cannot stand under the law. I would never feel like I could even worship under the law, because I could never keep one bit of it (if you break one piece – you've broken them all). This doesn't sound like the freedom that Jesus brought?
The freedom Jesus brought is forgivness not permission to sin.That and the fulfillment of the law of Moses. Luke 24:44
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Nick keeps saying Old Testament. Truth is the Ten commandments are in the New Testament All Ten.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
What is the love? That we walk after His commandments. This is the Commandment. What is the commandment? That we walk after His commandments. As we have heard from the beginning we should walk in them.
Is that what 2John 1:6 is saying?The endtime church will be keeping the Commandments of God.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Now what are the saints of the last days doing? The saints keep the commandments of God period.
Is that what Rev. 12:17 and Rev 14:12 is saying? Really read it over if you want but the letters won't change. Neither will the meaning.
Visit the Ten Commandment thread and read all the scriptures given. Ask yourself what the scriptures say. Pray ask God to show you His will. It's His will that matters not our will. Jesus said your will be done not my will Father.
kenrchYou say…
Quote What is the love? That we walk after His commandments. This is the Commandment. What is the commandment? That we walk after His commandments. As we have heard from the beginning we should walk in them.
Is that what 2John 1:6 is saying?Jesus said…
Jn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.Matt 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.All is fulfilled in Christ by faith as NH said.
If you go about trying to establish right standing with God by keeping the law, ;then you should keep all the law like Passover, all the major feast etc..
We walk by faith. We are not justified by keeping the law.
Hi WJ, I've been chatting with Ken about the Law, and specifically the commandments of God. The question is whether or not we have to “keep” them because we are under the new administration of grace. I came accross this section of scripture and wondered what you thought of it:
1 John 5:2-4
This is how we know that we love the chldren of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.Are these “commands” possibly the 10 commandements? Or other commands? Are we to ponder what Jesus said when he told us that he didn't come to do away with the Law? If Jesus didn't do away with the Law – which parts are we to keep? I'm not sure of these answers. Anyone?
I know this is a bit off topic (the Law), but I'm just following the thread here. Possibly, it does have a connection with the Trinity, in that if God is in fact, three persons; one person made the Law, and another person made it obsolete? Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest within the Godhead? Or maybe just part 1 of the plan, and part 2 of the plan? I don't know.
Hi Not3in1,
Tough question. Most Christians agree that we have to follow all of God's law, but some of the commands to Israel don't apply today. Obviously the 10 commandments do, but then there's the tricky question of the Sabbath, since the church believes that the first day of the week is the new Sabbath, the Lord's Day. So most protestants have said there are moral commandments, civil commandments, and ceremonial commandments in the OT, and we're only bound by the moral commandments. Some also want to reinstate the civil commandments, but they're in the minority. But that still leaves us with, what are the moral commandments? The Bible doesn't spell it out.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Is what you call “the church” the body of Christ?How does one enter it?
Is it ruled from Rome?
Do you need to accept your creeds to enter it?
Does not accepting God is three preclude membership?Hi Nick,
Yes, the church is the body of Christ. Speaking of which, how many bodies does Christ/the church have? How many persons does it have?
A person enters this one body by repenting of their sin and believing the gospel. It is ruled from heaven by Jesus Christ. Believing the gospel is necessary for it, which gospel is contained in the Holy Scriptures, the essential doctrine of which is summarized in the three ecumenical creeds. Knowledge of the one true God of the Bible is necessary for salvation, which knowledge is contained in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the three ecumenical creeds. Departure from the creeds indicates a false faith and hence admission to the church and its sacraments is to be denied.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So repentance and belief is enough to enter the kingdom?
No need for rebirth from above?
Traditional creeds are regarded as equal to scripture by some but note should be taken of Mk7.
Creeds do not define true faith so departure from them does not damage faith but rather enhances it.
We need to abide in what is written and trinity theory is noit written.2Jn
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I think I've gotten a good idea of everyone's belief about Jesus and the Spirit. Let's compare them. (Please correct me where I'm wrong.)
1. Trinitarians (Me, WJ, Is1:8, CB): Jesus and the Spirit are each God and distinct persons along with the Father, yet they are not three gods, but one God.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses (David): Jesus is a created god. The Spirit is … ?
3. TimothyVI: Jesus is a god. He has his own spirit, and God has an impersonal Spirit too.
4. Not3in1: Jesus was an impersonal part of God, God's seed, but became a person when he was born to Mary, a hybrid God-Man. Spirit is …?
5. t8: Jesus is an uncreated divine being who shares some of the nature of the Father but has some different properties from the Father and is not the same God as the Father. The Spirit is …?
6. Nick: Jesus was God. He no longer is God. The Spirit is part of God.
7. Kenrch: Jesus is one person in the Godhead along with the Father. They share the same impersonal Spirit.
8. WhatisTrue: (I forget, sorry.)
Again, sorry if I misstated you. I think it would be good for everyone to update this so we all know what we think. Sorry if I left anyone out.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,06:46) I think I've gotten a good idea of everyone's belief about Jesus and the Spirit. Let's compare them. (Please correct me where I'm wrong.) 1. Trinitarians (Me, WJ, Is1:8, CB): Jesus and the Spirit are each God and distinct persons along with the Father, yet they are not three gods, but one God.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses (David): Jesus is a created god. The Spirit is … ?
3. TimothyVI: Jesus is a god. He has his own spirit, and God has an impersonal Spirit too.
4. Not3in1: Jesus was an impersonal part of God, God's seed, but became a person when he was born to Mary, a hybrid God-Man. Spirit is …?
5. t8: Jesus is an uncreated divine being who shares some of the nature of the Father but has some different properties from the Father and is not the same God as the Father. The Spirit is …?
6. Nick: Jesus was God. He no longer is God. The Spirit is part of God.
7. Kenrch: Jesus is one person in the Godhead along with the Father. They share the same impersonal Spirit.
8. WhatisTrue: (I forget, sorry.)
Again, sorry if I misstated you. I think it would be good for everyone to update this so we all know what we think. Sorry if I left anyone out.
Tim
Hi Tim2,Isn't ti amazing how many different ways that people can
read and understand the same book?Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,06:46) I think I've gotten a good idea of everyone's belief about Jesus and the Spirit. Let's compare them. (Please correct me where I'm wrong.) 1. Trinitarians (Me, WJ, Is1:8, CB): Jesus and the Spirit are each God and distinct persons along with the Father, yet they are not three gods, but one God.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses (David): Jesus is a created god. The Spirit is … ?
3. TimothyVI: Jesus is a god. He has his own spirit, and God has an impersonal Spirit too.
4. Not3in1: Jesus was an impersonal part of God, God's seed, but became a person when he was born to Mary, a hybrid God-Man. Spirit is …?
5. t8: Jesus is an uncreated divine being who shares some of the nature of the Father but has some different properties from the Father and is not the same God as the Father. The Spirit is …?
6. Nick: Jesus was God. He no longer is God. The Spirit is part of God.
7. Kenrch: Jesus is one person in the Godhead along with the Father. They share the same impersonal Spirit.
8. WhatisTrue: (I forget, sorry.)
Again, sorry if I misstated you. I think it would be good for everyone to update this so we all know what we think. Sorry if I left anyone out.
Tim
Tim2Not bad. I think you hit the nail on the head, except you left Charity out.
I dont know what she believes if you do tell me.
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 13 2007,07:14) Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,06:46) I think I've gotten a good idea of everyone's belief about Jesus and the Spirit. Let's compare them. (Please correct me where I'm wrong.) 1. Trinitarians (Me, WJ, Is1:8, CB): Jesus and the Spirit are each God and distinct persons along with the Father, yet they are not three gods, but one God.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses (David): Jesus is a created god. The Spirit is … ?
3. TimothyVI: Jesus is a god. He has his own spirit, and God has an impersonal Spirit too.
4. Not3in1: Jesus was an impersonal part of God, God's seed, but became a person when he was born to Mary, a hybrid God-Man. Spirit is …?
5. t8: Jesus is an uncreated divine being who shares some of the nature of the Father but has some different properties from the Father and is not the same God as the Father. The Spirit is …?
6. Nick: Jesus was God. He no longer is God. The Spirit is part of God.
7. Kenrch: Jesus is one person in the Godhead along with the Father. They share the same impersonal Spirit.
8. WhatisTrue: (I forget, sorry.)
Again, sorry if I misstated you. I think it would be good for everyone to update this so we all know what we think. Sorry if I left anyone out.
Tim
Hi Tim2,Isn't ti amazing how many different ways that people can
read and understand the same book?Tim
My left index finger always gets ahead of my right middle finger when I type “it”.Tim
Hi Tim,
I don't know if “amazing” is the word I'd use for it, more like horrifying. Paul commands the church to speak the same thing, 1 Corinthians 1:10, not to accept another Jesus, 2 Corinthians 11:4, nor a false gospel, Galatians 1:9. So there has to be unity, and the Trinity is the one area of unity between all the Christian denominations in the world. Why can't everyone just admit that their own personal, sin inspired understanding of the Bible is wrong, and agree with the common understanding given to the world wide church for 2000 years by the Spirit?
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2007,04:32) I know this is a bit off topic (the Law), but I'm just following the thread here. Possibly, it does have a connection with the Trinity, in that if God is in fact, three persons; one person made the Law, and another person made it obsolete? Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest within the Godhead? Or maybe just part 1 of the plan, and part 2 of the plan? I don't know.
Not3in1No one is implying Jesus made the law obsolete.
Yeshua fulfilled all the law and gave us a new commandment.
He didnt obolish the law, the law is for the transgressors. But we a saved by faith and not by the law.
No one can be righteous by keeping the law, if we could then Jesus wouldnt have had to die.
The law is our schoolmaster to Christ. But we are no longer under its curse. Christ came to free us from the curse of the law and in Galations he rebukes them for going back to the law and trying to establish right standing with God by keeping it.
This is not advocationg breaking the law but it is following the New commandments of which the first Jesus says all the law and the prophets hang on, because you cant love the Lord your God with all of your heart and love your nieghbor as yourself and break one of the other commandments.
Hi Tim2,
No.
Your attempt to paint unity in the varieties of trinity belief shown here does not wash.As well you say of me
“6. Nick: Jesus was God. He no longer is God. The Spirit is part of God.”
No.
The origins of Christ are divine with God.
But he emptied himself of glory and power so that he had no advantage over us as Son of Adam [man]. He partook of flesh and was made even less than the angels as we are. But he remained the glorious Son of God as shown on the mountain and regained all he had lost and more when he returned to heaven after his victory over the god of this world. He sits at the right hand of God.
The Spirit of God is the spirit of God, the aspect of God shown in all creation, fully revealed in Christ, and shared among us.
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