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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2007,08:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,08:08) Hi Tim2,
Do not add to scripture.
It says WAS.
NHI am confused. I have heard you say the Word was with God but not a part of God and not in God, now you say he “Was God” and is no more.
Please explain!
NHThe interpretation of John 1:1 seems to be a “Mystery” on this forum.
Neither you nor t8 seem to want to talk about it and give your understanding of it.
What gives? Why all the Illusiveness?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,08:15) Hi W,
Do not add to scripture.
It says WAS.
So what happened after then?
Was did not become IS did it?
NHYou make no sense. You say he “Was” a Son before he “Was” born a Son.
So by your logic then he is no longer the Son that he “Was”.
So your inferense should override scripture?
Hi W,
The monogenes Sonship to God was not altered by partaking of flesh.
Except that any advantages that might have given him over us he emptied himself of.
Tim2 tells us God died. Are you going to correct him?Quote (Tim2 @ April 10 2007,05:02) Hi all, I hope everyone had a good weekend. I hear most people on this thread are from New Zealand. I'm from the USA. I hope you don't mind an American sharing his ideas with you. I know I often get heated and share some angry feelings instead of ideas, so forgive me for doing that. I hope I can calmly discuss this important topic with you.
In my text post I'm going to submit a list of verses that seem to have everything to do with the Trinity, both for and against. Obviously, my version is weighted toward the Trinity. My hope is that we can all add verses to it and update it as we study the Bible more. And of course, we'll discuss it at length.
My goal is for us to have a thread where we can look at the Scriptures as a whole. I apologize if we already have a thread for this.
May the truth set us free.
Tim
Hi Tim2:God is not the author of confusion!
Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty!
I do know the truth and the truth has set me free, and I will not brought into bondage, and I desire God's very best for you.
God Bless
Hi Nick,
The truth has set me free. The truth that Jesus is My God. John 20:28. You don't seem to accept this. Why not?
You also seem to believe that the Word was God and has stopped being God. God stopped being God? Even though He was confessed to be God after His resurrection? Even though He is in the bosom of the Father? John 1:18.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Scripture strangely does not say the WORD IS GOD?
Neither does it ever say Jesus is OUR GOD
What rationalisations do you have to explain this?Hi Nick,
Is the Word God? We know the Word was God. We also know that the Word is Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and who is the first and the last. I fail to see how God can stop being God. You're assuming he stopped being God. I think the Bible would have mentioned if God stopped being God.
Is Jesus our God? Clearly he's not your god, for you reject the testimony of Thomas. I, however, have the same God as Thomas. I invite you to repent and believe on Him.
Tim
Hi Tim2
You say
” I fail to see how God can stop being God. “
Sorry logic will not do. Show us from scripture that the Word IS God.OK. My theory is not a popular one here on John 1:1, but as I can see Nick and Tim2 are at a stand-off, I'll interject my little thoughts.
How can the Word stop being God (because he WAS God in the beginning)? Well, given the fact that I believe Jesus was born, and in being born (for the first and only time, I might add), he became the Son of God. But before he became flesh, and the Son of God, he was “with” God (and technically, God himself) as God's SEED. That is how Jesus/Word WAS God, and then when he became flesh, ceased to be one-in-the-same-God and became his own man. There. Doesn't this make sense? Anyway, it's one way to look at it while you guys are arguing
Hi Not3in1,
Thanks. I'm glad that you are searching the Scriptures and seeking the truth.
What you are saying isn't that far from what the church has historically believed. Ok, it's not the same, but at least you don't believe Jesus is part of creation. Acknowledging that the Word was God himself is pretty good.
As far as “God's seed,” I'm curious where you get that from. What does it mean? That He was part of God?
Jesus says more than once, “I am the first and the last.” I think this is pretty explicit that He has always existed as a person. “I” am the first.
But my point, Not3in1, is that I think it would be best for you not to cling to what you see the Scriptures saying without consulting other Christians. I'm happy to see you're on this sight, but most of the people here are not Christian. All Christians across the world have always believed that Jesus is God. The doctrine of the Trinity was written in the ecumenical creeds to distinguish the truth from the heresies of modalism, arianism, and gnosticism. My point is that I strongly suggest that you humble yourself and look to the wisdom of the church, of all denominations, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, for the past 2000 years. Paul commands the church to speak the same thing, and this has been achieved with amazing success in the worldwide church's common profession of the Trinity. So please, look at what the saints confess, ask questions, and believe.
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2007,11:34) OK. My theory is not a popular one here on John 1:1, but as I can see Nick and Tim2 are at a stand-off, I'll interject my little thoughts. How can the Word stop being God (because he WAS God in the beginning)? Well, given the fact that I believe Jesus was born, and in being born (for the first and only time, I might add), he became the Son of God. But before he became flesh, and the Son of God, he was “with” God (and technically, God himself) as God's SEED. That is how Jesus/Word WAS God, and then when he became flesh, ceased to be one-in-the-same-God and became his own man. There. Doesn't this make sense? Anyway, it's one way to look at it while you guys are arguing
Hi Not3in1.He is called the Word of God now and just because God expressed his Word and gave him life, doesn't mean that God himself emptied himself of his word.
Similarly, just because Jesus is the Truth and the Life, doesn't mean that God isn't truth or life anymore.
Just as a flame can create a new flame without the original fire loosing anything, so the Word who came from God was WITH God in the beginning. He later partook of the flesh and his apostles beheld his glory as the only begotten of the Father.
He is called the Word of God now and just because God expressed his Word and gave him life, doesn't mean that God himself emptied himself of his word
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t8, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Um, using my example, just because you give your seed and a child is produced, doesn't mean you give away all your seed or abilities to produce again. Likewise, when God gave his seed and produced Jesus (the Word expressed), doesn't mean that God lost the ability to remain who he is.You write:
Similarly, just because Jesus is the Truth and the Life, doesn't mean that God isn't truth or life anymore.
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True. I agree. A Father will pass on to his child certain attributes that he possesses. It doesn't mean he gives up those attributes in himself. In other words, when you have a son t8, you are sharing all of who and what you are……your son is part of YOU.You write:
Just as a flame can create a new flame without the original fire loosing anything, so the Word who came from God was WITH God in the beginning.
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True. I also agree with this. I'm not sure if I am getting your point. Again, God shared with Jesus, his Son, who and what he is. Got remains who and what he is. Just as you remain who you are when you have a son. Just because you share who you are with the production of your son doesn't mean you cease to be who you are, t8. I hope this makes sense.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2007,12:08) True. I agree. A Father will pass on to his child certain attributes that he possesses. It doesn't mean he gives up those attributes in himself. In other words, when you have a son t8, you are sharing all of who and what you are……your son is part of YOU.
So you agree then that a son is not you.Therefore the son of God is not his Father.
God is his Father.
For us there is one God, the Father.
God is the Father.
Try reading a few scriptures at random and replace the word 'God' with 'Trinity'. Then read those same scriptures and replace the word 'God' with 'Father'.
Which one works?
There are 100 scriptures to choose from, but try any 3 of them.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmHi not3,
I have three wonderful sons and none of them is a part of me.
They are not clones of me or of each other and you would soon realise they look quite different and have very individual ideas, attitudes and personalities.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2007,12:08) I'm not sure if I am getting your point.
Hi Not3in1.The point is that the Word was WITH God in the BEGINNING.
And he is called the Word of God now.John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.So it is even from this perspective easy to understand that the Word of God existed in the beginning as he does now.
Yet God himself still has his Word.
So he begat another life from himself in the beginning before anything was created. God then created all things through him as the Word of God.
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