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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2007,09:45) Ken – what do you mean?
Sorry it's a joke Nick accuses me of hiding in scripture. I see you do also
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2007,09:48) I still don't get it (I'm blonde – 
) What does “hiding in scripture” imply?
It means I use scripture that Nick can't get around and has no answer. So he says I hide in scripture And he is absolutely correct I hide in truth and Spirit.
GOTCHA! Love it – well – if that is hidding – then I'm hiding
Say, Ken, are you a Seventh Day Adventist? I gather by your tag “Man- first day and God – seventh day” that you are? I've never understood what the huge deal is there? Is the day that you celebrate the Sabboth the only difference between Seventh Day and other Trinitarian churches? Thanks
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2007,09:59) GOTCHA! Love it – well – if that is hidding – then I'm hiding Say, Ken, are you a Seventh Day Adventist? I gather by your tag “Man- first day and God – seventh day” that you are? I've never understood what the huge deal is there? Is the day that you celebrate the Sabboth the only difference between Seventh Day and other Trinitarian churches? Thanks
NO! I'm not a SDA. The SDA has truth mixed with lies like all denominations you know what I mean.There is simply no scripture that says the “TEN” Commandments are done away. The Pope changed the forth commandment to the first day of the week.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Jesus said not until heaven and earth pass away will the Law be changed.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Here jesus explains that the will of the Father is that you keep His law.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who *does the will of my Father who is in heaven*.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you *workers of lawlessness*.'Here paul says only those who have the Spirit can keep the Law of God.
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Well if you wish to continue this discussion we should go to the Ten Commandment thread. I wouldn't want to get you in trouble along with myself
I'll look for the Ten commandment thread. This is interesting to me. Because I just cannot imagine keeping the law. I mean, that is why Jesus was sent, is it not? There was something wrong with the first convenant and that is why Jesus was sent with a new convenant. I know that is written somewhere. Paul tells us that the Law produced sin, even (or something like that
) I'll do some digging here. I just cannot stand under the law. I would never feel like I could even worship under the law, because I could never keep one bit of it (if you break one piece – you've broken them all). This doesn't sound like the freedom that Jesus brought?Hi not3,
There are always those who would push men towards the observance of the OT law but it was never our law as gentiles.
Even the Jews were warned against it in strong terms.
Gal 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
But this thread is about another dangerous exercise in futility-attempting to change the nature of God-the gross trinity folly.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2007,10:39) I'll look for the Ten commandment thread. This is interesting to me. Because I just cannot imagine keeping the law. I mean, that is why Jesus was sent, is it not? There was something wrong with the first convenant and that is why Jesus was sent with a new convenant. I know that is written somewhere. Paul tells us that the Law produced sin, even (or something like that ) I'll do some digging here. I just cannot stand under the law. I would never feel like I could even worship under the law, because I could never keep one bit of it (if you break one piece – you've broken them all). This doesn't sound like the freedom that Jesus brought?
The freedom Jesus brought is forgivness not permission to sin.That and the fulfillment of the law of Moses. Luke 24:44
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Nick keeps saying Old Testament. Truth is the Ten commandments are in the New Testament All Ten.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
What is the love? That we walk after His commandments. This is the Commandment. What is the commandment? That we walk after His commandments. As we have heard from the beginning we should walk in them.
Is that what 2John 1:6 is saying?The endtime church will be keeping the Commandments of God.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Now what are the saints of the last days doing? The saints keep the commandments of God period.
Is that what Rev. 12:17 and Rev 14:12 is saying? Really read it over if you want but the letters won't change. Neither will the meaning.
Visit the Ten Commandment thread and read all the scriptures given. Ask yourself what the scriptures say. Pray ask God to show you His will. It's His will that matters not our will. Jesus said your will be done not my will Father.
Hi,
Trinity is not written,.
Trinity is thus not truth.
Why do men waste their lives defending what is not true?I get that – of course – we are to still “keep” the 10 commandments. I mean, just because Jesus came doesn't mean we can go around killing and stealing and taking God's name in vain and so on. But I think the main idea is that the law almost promoted sin. And who can stand up to that? No one. God knew this. Even those who didn't break the commands of God sinned. So, the “new” covenant was introduced…..grace, and forgiveness. Of course we are to not keep on sinning. Sinning is not OK now, just because we are under the new covenant.
But we are under a new covenant – are we not?
Oh! Yes, sorry
It is hard to keep on track, isn't it? And to keep track of all the different boards…..TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
God is both three and one
BIBLE CONTRADICTION:
Three does not equal one. The bible repeatedly says that God is one, never that God is three (Deut. 6:4).TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
God is immortal. Jesus was God. Jesus died.
BIBLE CONTRADICTION:
'Immortal' means to subject to death.
Immortal God cannot die.
Since Jesus died, he could not havge been immortal God. (1Tim. 1:17) and (Matt. 27:50)TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
The three members of the Godhead are co-equal.
BIBLE CONTRADICTION:
Uncreated, eternal beings cannot be related as family.
Related family members must share a familial linkage to legitimately be called 'family.'
'Father' and 'son' are arbitarary, meaningless labels if both always existed.
If Jesus always existed, then he is not REALLY the son. (Luke 1:35).TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
God is omniscient
BIBLE CONTRADICTION:
Jesus grew in understanding. How can one who is omniscient (has all knowledge) LEARN? (Luke 2:40)
Furthermore, Jesus had incomplete knowledge. How can you have incomplete knowledge if you know everything? (Mark 13:32).TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
There is one God. Jesus is God.
BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION:
Jesus prayed and spoke to God his Father. Two distinct beings communicated with each other. (Matt. 26:19).
The bible teaches that God the Father and Jesus are distinct, individual persons (Mark 16:19)
How can Jesus be sitting NEXT TO God, at his right hand, if he IS God? How can someone sit next to himself?TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
The three members of the Godhead are in total agreement and of one mind.
BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION:
Matthew 26:39
Two wills that are (in this case) NOT in agreement with each other.
Two individuals, each with his own INDIVIDUAL will.TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
The Trinity is Bible truth.
BIBLE CONTRADICTION:
No Trinitarian ideas occur in the OT.
No Trinitarian ideas occur in the NT.
The Trinity was not formulated until the FIFTH century! (Isaiah 37:16)TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
The Trinity is monotheistic.
BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION:
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit —- this is polytheism! (Ex.20:2-3).TRINITARIAN CLAIM:
You MUST believe in the Trinity to be saved.
BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION:
The Bible NEVER mentions the Trinity or a triune God.
There is no Bible command to believe in the Trinity. (1 Cor. 8:6).Nick, how is this for staying on track?
Hi all,
I hope everyone had a good weekend. I hear most people on this thread are from New Zealand. I'm from the USA. I hope you don't mind an American sharing his ideas with you. I know I often get heated and share some angry feelings instead of ideas, so forgive me for doing that. I hope I can calmly discuss this important topic with you.
In my text post I'm going to submit a list of verses that seem to have everything to do with the Trinity, both for and against. Obviously, my version is weighted toward the Trinity. My hope is that we can all add verses to it and update it as we study the Bible more. And of course, we'll discuss it at length.
My goal is for us to have a thread where we can look at the Scriptures as a whole. I apologize if we already have a thread for this.
May the truth set us free.
TimTrinity Verses
Direct statements of one God and three persons:
(pretty clear support of Trinity)-Direct statements of the oneness of God: Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc.
-no other gods:Isaiah 44:6-Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God: Matthew 28:19
-Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son: John 10:30
-Direct statements of the deity of the Son: John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18
-Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2
John 14:26Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit:
(tend to support the Trinity)-Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit: Acts 5:4-5
2 Corinthians 3:17-Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son: John 17:10
John 16:15
John 5:18
John 5:19
John 5:21
John 5:23-Shared glory between the Father and the Son: John 17:5
cf. Isaiah 42:8-Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life: Acts 5:15
-omniscience: John 16:30
John 21:17
-power and wisdom of God: 1 Cor 1:24-Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God: Mark 1:24
cf. Isaiah 1:4
-First and Last: Rev 1:17, 22:13
cf. Isaiah 44:6
-Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:15
cf. Psalm 136:3
cf. Deut. 10:17
-King of Kings: Rev. 17:14
cf. 1 Tim 6:16
-Saviour: Titus 2:13
cf. Isaiah 43:11-Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son: John 5:26
-Use of the divine Name by the Son: John 8:58
-for the Son:Romans 10:13-Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of the Father: John 16:27-28
John 16:30-Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son: John 14:11
John 17:21
John 17:23-Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15
-(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son: Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25-every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day: Philippians 2:10-11
cf. Isaiah 45:23-the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus: Colossians 2:9
-Jesus existed in the form of God: Philippians 2:6
Allusions and Hints to the Trinity:
(in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity)-Allusions to the Son’s deity: Matthew 1:23
-Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father: Matthew 11:27
John 1:18-Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God: 1 Cor 2:11
-Jesus will be great Luke 1:32
-Jesus used interchangeably with God: Luke 8:39
-the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh: Genesis 1:27, 2:24
-woman out of man and same flesh as man: Genesis 2:23Middle Ground:
(could go either way)-the Son of God: God of God, or creation/mode of God? Matthew 16:16
-firstborn of creation: as creator or creation? Colossians 1:15
-image of God: because He’s God? Colossians 1:15
Apparent polytheism
(tend to show multiple gods)-multiple gods? Psalm 82
Apparent Contradictions
(pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity)-The Father greater than the Son: John 16:28
-The Son not omniscient? Mark 13:32
-The Father the only true God: John 17:3
1 Cor 8:6
Ephesians 4:6-God the head of Christ: 1 Cor 11:3
-Son will be subject to the Father: 1 Cor 15:28
Just a comment on the above post:
My fonts and underlying didn't come through. I've tried to divide it into sections. The section heads are the lines without any verses next to them, and below each of them, I hope, is an explanation in parantheses. Then are listed points and the verses that support them.
Enjoy.
Tim
Hi Nick,
Ok, but do you agree that these clear statements are made:
There is only one God.
We cannot worship or serve any other god.
The Father is God.
The name of the Father is the name of God.
The name of the Father is the name of the Son and the Spirit.
The Son is God.
The Father and the Son are one. (One what?)
The Spirit is God.
The word for “one” in Deuteronomy 6:4 does not exclude the possibility of multiple persons, because it is the same word used to describe multiple persons who become one flesh in Genesis 2:24.Attributes and names that are exclusive to YHWH are given to Jesus in the New Testament.
Tim
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