The Trinity Doctrine

[Tim2]

Phoenix,

None of those verses show that Jesus didn't consider Himself God. They show that He considered His Father to be God. This does not exclude the possibility of Jesus also being God.

Mark 10:18 also does not deny that Jesus is God. It says that God alone is good. Hence, Jesus is God, because Jesus calls Himself good in John 10:11 and 10:14.

Tim

[david]

Quote

I know it's used a lot to refer to beings other than YHWH. But I know ultimately, there is no other god besides YHWH.

So what's the word mean?

[Tim2]

David,

I don't know of a place where it's defined. If you do, please tell me. But I know that in the end it means YHWH.

Tim

[david]

Quote

But I know that in the end it means YHWH.

Yet that word is applied to others, as you acknowledged.
So, logically, it has to have a wider meaning than simply: “YHWH”

What is the actual meaning?

It doesn't mean YHWH.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 03 2007,23:23)

Well, I have decided to embrace the extra-biblical musings of the church fathers, and add a modest improvement of my own.  Why not evolve the doctrine even further into a Trinity within a Trinity?  Instead of a dual natured Christ, why not make him “tri-natured”, completing the divine mathematical formula?  Afterall, why limit Jesus to existing merely as God and man, when he could be described as God, man, and angel?  Certainly, I need not recount all of the Trinitarian assertions that Christ appeared as the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament.  There are even passages that show men falling down before this angel in worship.  Obviously, Jesus, the Man, had not yet appeared on the scene, and Jesus, the God, no man can see.  So, clearly, it was Jesus, the Angel, who dabbled in the earthly realm in those days.  And, since angel beings are a different ontological category from both God and man, Jesus must have had to take on the nature of angels, in addition to the natures of God and man, in order to appear as he did. Now, Is 1:18, if you think that I have gone too far, I would wonder if you could demonstrate that fact scripturally, bearing in mind that in this paradigm I do not discount the proposition that Jesus is above the angels, and superior to them.  I merely assert that he also shares their nature as demonstrated in the doctrine that asserts that he was the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament.  Personally, I think that my new theory “accounts for all the biblical data” more completely than your current belief, so I can't see what your objection would be.

Okay, I'll try to moderate the tone of this post for you…..

This would be a great point if:

1) Trinitarians universally held that the “angel of the Lord” was the pre-incarnate Yeshua.

2) The word angel (malakh = messenger) is exclusively applicable to the “hosts” of heaven, the created spirit beings of ontology intermediate to man and God.

3. There wasn't such a high degree of ambiguity in ascertaining whether “the angel of the Lord” was a messenger acting on behalf of YHWH or YHWH. As this identity did frequently take ownership of the prerogatives of YHWH and refer to Himself as “YHWH” (Gen 16:7-13, 21:12-13, 22:10-16, 31:11-13; Exodus 3:2-7, Numbers 22:34-35, 22:38, 23:12; Judges 2.1-4….), which would be incomprehensible for a mere appointed messenger.

Not too obnoxious that time?

[Tim2]

David,

If the actual meaning is spelled out in the Bible, please tell me if you've found it. I think I have found the actual meaning in Deuteronomy 32:39 -there is no god besides YHWH. So God means YHWH.

Others might be called gods from time to time, but in the end, they are destroyed (Psalm 82:7).

Tim

[david]

Quote

So God means YHWH.

No, I assure you, it certainly without question doesn't.

The word God is certainly applied to YHWH.

But the word human can be applied to me. But “human” doesn't mean me. It is something that describes me, as god describes Jehovah, and others.

So, what does that word mean?

Quote

Others might be called gods from time to time, but in the end, they are destroyed (Psalm 82:7).

Will the angels be destroyed?

[Is 1:18]

Thats' right Tim2, in Jeremiah 10:10-13 YHWH uses His act of Creation to authenticate Hemself as the “True God”, and contrast Himself with the false ones.

David, a question for you. How many “Gods” do you think existed “in the beginning”?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Is Yeshua a false god then?

[Is 1:18]

I'm happy to answer any questions, as long as I don't have to repeat myself constantly to the same person and/or they are intelligent ones….

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Fortunately we do not have to be answer givers as all the answers are written.
Trinity is not written

[david]

Quote

I'm happy to answer any questions, as long as I don't have to repeat myself constantly to the same person and/or they are intelligent ones….

It's a good thing God only wants the intelligent ones to have an understanding then. Wait…

[Is 1:18]

NH,
So everything you believe is explicitly written in scripture?….

Is this right?

[Phoenix]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,19:22)

Phoenix, Mark 10:18 also does not deny that Jesus is God.  It says that God alone is good.  Hence, Jesus is God, because Jesus calls Himself good in John 10:11 and 10:14. Tim

Hi Tim

Please… pull that wooden plank out of your eye

Mark 10:18
.“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone

Edit: Jesus denies he's good in this verse

[Is 1:18]

Quote (david @ April 04 2007,08:54)

Quote I'm happy to answer any questions, as long as I don't have to repeat myself constantly to the same person and/or they are intelligent ones…. It's a good thing God only wants the intelligent ones to have an understanding then.  Wait…

David, do you have an answer for me?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Phoenix @ April 04 2007,09:01)

Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,19:22) Phoenix, Mark 10:18 also does not deny that Jesus is God.  It says that God alone is good.  Hence, Jesus is God, because Jesus calls Himself good in John 10:11 and 10:14. Tim Hi Tim Please… pull that wooden plank out of your eye Mark 10:18 .“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone Edit: Jesus denies he's good in this verse

I don't think Yeshua was explicitly denying that He was God in that passage. Here's another way to look at it Phoenix….Hypothetically, if there was a multimillionaire (the only one in existence) named John Smith who dressed like a poor man, so he could disguise his identity, and someone (who didn't know him or his background) walked up to him and said “Sir, I know that you are wealthy….” it would be perfectly understandable for the multimillionaire to reply “why did you call me wealthy? Only John Smith is wealthy…” You see the same senario in the batman/superman movies

The other problem with the interpretation you extended is that by any standard of measure Yeshua WAS good. He was the spotless Lamb. So He would be lying here if He was denying He was “good” and therefore by association, God.

Blessings

[Is 1:18]

Quote (david @ April 04 2007,07:55)

Based on the Bible, what does the word “god” mean?

David,
You asked this question, to which Tim2 rightly pointed out there is no definition given in the Bible. So “based on the Bible” there is no legitimate answer. Do you disagree with him or will you concede that it was a meaningless question?

[Phoenix]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 04 2007,20:16)

Quote (Phoenix @ April 04 2007,09:01) Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,19:22) Phoenix, Mark 10:18 also does not deny that Jesus is God.  It says that God alone is good.  Hence, Jesus is God, because Jesus calls Himself good in John 10:11 and 10:14. Tim Hi Tim Please… pull that wooden plank out of your eye Mark 10:18 .“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone Edit: Jesus denies he's good in this verse I don't think Yeshua was explicitly denying that He was God in that passage. Here's another way to look at it Phoenix….Hypothetically, if there was a multimillionaire (the only one in existence) named John Smith who dressed like a poor man, so he could disguise his identity, and someone (who didn't know him or his background) walked up to him and said “Sir, I know that you are wealthy….” it would be perfectly understandable for the multimillionaire to reply “why did you call me wealthy? Only John Smith is wealthy…” You see the same senario in the batman/superman movies The other problem with the interpretation you extended is that by any standard of measure Yeshua WAS good. He was the spotless Lamb. So He would be lying here if He was denying He was “good” and therefore by association, God. Blessings

Hi Is

Why would he say “No one is good—except God alone” immediately after asking the rich man why he called Him (Jesus) good?

By all means I agree that Jesus WAS good, but to me, Jesus was trying to let everyone know who it was that was better than He (Jesus). There is nothing whatsoever that shows in this verse that Jesus is God. lol unless i poke that plank in my eye  

Hugs
Phoenix

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Phoenix @ April 04 2007,09:49)

Hi Is Why would he say “No one is good—except God alone” immediately after asking the rich man why he called Him (Jesus) good? By all means I agree that Jesus WAS good, but to me, Jesus was trying to let everyone know who it was that was better than He (Jesus). There is nothing whatsoever that shows in this verse that Jesus is God. lol unless i poke that plank in my eye   Hugs Phoenix

He he…well we all have to take the odd plank out of our eyes from time to time…

In answer to your question, the connotation in what He said depends on the intonation in His voice when He spoke it….I think Yeshua said this with an eyebrow raised….in a “do you realise what it is you are inferring?” kind of way….rather than a frown and a “don't call me good!, that attribute belongs to God alone” growly kind of way.

That's how I see it.

Blessings

[charity]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 04 2007,09:38)

Quote (david @ April 04 2007,07:55) Based on the Bible, what does the word “god” mean? David, You asked this question, to which Tim2 rightly pointed out there is no definition given in the Bible. So “based on the Bible” there is no legitimate answer. Do you disagree with him or will you concede that it was a meaningless question?

HI Is1;18 this is a good question
We may be calling an Arm God

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. [Art] thou not it that hath cut Rahab, [and] wounded the dragon?
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Gods arm is him; but an arm is not fully him; but only an inheritance of his likeness?

charity

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