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Hi,
It seems odd to me that those who are at great pains to try and prove from outside of the teachers God that approved that our God is a triune being never actually relate to that being nor tell us to do so but at all but urge us to worship individual deities within that being.
But then trinity is a very odd concept anyway.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2007,00:11) Hi,
It seems odd to me that those who are at great pains to try and prove from outside of the teachers God that approved that our God is a triune being never actually relate to that being nor tell us to do so but at all but urge us to worship individual deities within that being.
But then trinity is a very odd concept anyway.
NHThe Scriptures is an Old concept also, wouldnt you say?
Oh and what about Arianism and Polytheism and Henotheism?
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,21:28) Hi Nick, I worship one God. My understanding of deity is that it means “a god” or God. So I worship one Deity, YHWH.
Worship is given to the Spirit every time He is called Holy. There is no one holy like YHWH -1 Samuel 2:2.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,“Ephesians 3:5
which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.”So apostles and prophets are called holy-is this worship?
So also the holy scriptures, even a holy kiss?
More worship?Hi Tim
Quote I'm glad you realize that this is a matter of eternal condemnation. I was a little shy of bringing that up, but thanks be to God that it has been brought up. The fact is, if the Trinity is correct, then those who reject the Trinity are not saved. And if the Trinity is not correct, then those who worship the Trinity are not saved. So that's why we're here, I hope, we're trying to save each other from damnable heresies. I agree, its not a nice thing to say in front of those that may disagree with your belief. However, there is no Trinity. There never were and it's definitely not biblical. So how can anyone say its either Trinity or not? especially in regards to whether youre saved or condemned.
Quote If you are right that the Trinity is a product of the heretical Roman Catholic church, then Luther, Calvin, and all Protestants who follow them are equally damned. In that case, the seed of Abraham is quite small, scarcely as great as the stars above. I cant guarantee or be sure of where or when this Trinity concept came about. So I wont comment on that. But as for the size of the seed of Abraham….I do believe the Bible says that not many will be saved. The path is apparently narrow and windy. As opposed to wide and straight.
Quote But if the Trinity is heresy, then why did Jesus tell us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Good question. There is a debate about whether Jesus did say that or not.
Hugs
PhoenixTim2 wrote:
If you are right that the Trinity is a product of the heretical Roman Catholic church, then Luther, Calvin, and all Protestants who follow them are equally damned.
*********************************Paul had some words regarding the damnation of those who followed another gospel than what he preached (he never once taught on the Trinity).
Gal 1:6-9, 11 – quoted in part
“…I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you….and are turning to a different gospel……but even if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED! Again….preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED!”
An interesting note on this passage, for me, has always been “other than what you accepted” – well, what was the gospel that the disciples accepted? Peter tells us that it wasn't one with “clever stories” and Paul tells us that it wasn't one that “man made up.”
I ask a few simple questions here: was the Trinity the gospel that the disciples accepted? And is the Trinity “man made?”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2007,00:38) Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,21:28) Hi Nick, I worship one God. My understanding of deity is that it means “a god” or God. So I worship one Deity, YHWH.
Worship is given to the Spirit every time He is called Holy. There is no one holy like YHWH -1 Samuel 2:2.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,“Ephesians 3:5
which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.”So apostles and prophets are called holy-is this worship?
So also the holy scriptures, even a holy kiss?
More worship?
Hi Nick,Many are called holy in the Bible but are not God. Therefore, calling them holy is not worshipping them.
The Holy Spirit, however, is God. Holy is a praise of YHWH, as in Isaiah 6:3. Therefore, calling the Spirit Holy is a form of praise and thus worship.
Also, though many are called holy, we know that none is holy like YHWH from 1 Samuel 2:2. Thus, YHWH is called the Holy One (Isaiah 1:4). Groups of people or writings may be called holy because they are set apart for YHWH, but YHWH is the only Holy One. (That's redundant, isn't it, only Holy One?) Yet Jesus is repeatedly called the Holy One, and the Spirit is repeatedly called the Holy Spirit. Can you name any other individuals who repeatedly called, “Holy X” in the Bible?
Tim
Phoenix and Not3in1,
Yes, eternal salvation is at stake here. It is my position and the position of all the churches that if you do not believe in the Trinity, then you are not saved. So please repent and believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are not three gods (or deities, Nick) but one God. This is the gospel that Jesus and the apostles proclaimed.
Paul said, “we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Do you believe that Jesus is the power and wisdom of God? If so, then how can Jesus not be God, for if Jesus were not God, then God would be dependent on Jesus for His power and wisdom. Do you believe that Almighty God is dependent on someone else for power and wisdom?
But Paul is even more explicit. He calls Jesus God in Romans 9:5. He applies the name of YHWH to Jesus in Romans 10:13. He says every knee will bow to YHWH in Romans 14:11, and also says every knee shall bow to Jesus and confess that he is kyrios (YHWH) in Philippians 2:10-11. He calls Jesus our God and Savior in Titus 2:13. He says that all things were created for Jesus in Colossians 2:16, but in Romans 11 he says that all things are to (“eis,” the same word) God. Paul also says that the Lord is the Spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:17-18, and that we behold in a mirror the glory of this Lord.
Paul is a Trinitarian. All the apostles are. All the saints are. Anyone who is not a Trinitarian is preaching a false gospel and is eternally condemned. But I am called to the ministry of reconciliation, so please, repent and believe the gospel, and you will be saved.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,05:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2007,00:38) Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,21:28) Hi Nick, I worship one God. My understanding of deity is that it means “a god” or God. So I worship one Deity, YHWH.
Worship is given to the Spirit every time He is called Holy. There is no one holy like YHWH -1 Samuel 2:2.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,“Ephesians 3:5
which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.”So apostles and prophets are called holy-is this worship?
So also the holy scriptures, even a holy kiss?
More worship?
Hi Nick,Many are called holy in the Bible but are not God. Therefore, calling them holy is not worshipping them.
The Holy Spirit, however, is God. Holy is a praise of YHWH, as in Isaiah 6:3. Therefore, calling the Spirit Holy is a form of praise and thus worship.
Also, though many are called holy, we know that none is holy like YHWH from 1 Samuel 2:2. Thus, YHWH is called the Holy One (Isaiah 1:4). Groups of people or writings may be called holy because they are set apart for YHWH, but YHWH is the only Holy One. (That's redundant, isn't it, only Holy One?) Yet Jesus is repeatedly called the Holy One, and the Spirit is repeatedly called the Holy Spirit. Can you name any other individuals who repeatedly called, “Holy X” in the Bible?
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
Did you figure out all these empty rationalisations for what is not written yourself or is there a greater book than the bible we should read?Sorry Nick,
I don't see any rationalizations in what I wrote. The Bible says there is one who is Holy, YHWH, the Holy One. Jesus is called the Holy One and the Spirit is called the Holy Spirit. This is not a rationalization, it is straight out of Scripture.
I think you're confusing rationalization with the meaning of language. First means first. One means one. That's not a rationalization.
Tim
Hi Tim,
The bible tells us many things are holy but you have selected only some and combined them as God?
Are we able to do this sort of thing with sacred revelation?Hi Nick,
The Bible tells us that there is no one holy like YHWH and that YHWH is the Holy One. Please name one other individual who is given the name of holy.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
We do not need greek logic in finding truth.
What we need to know is written.
God is the father and God of Jesus.Nick,
You're right, we don't need greek logic. We need to know what is written. What is written is that we have to understand what is written (Psalm 32:9). A wise man will hear and increase in learning. This means that you know what a word means. So when it says, “no one is holy like YHWH,” it means that if something else is called holy, it is still not as holy as YHWH. Hence, YHWH is called the Holy One. One means one. This is the Hebrew language, not greek logic. Jesus is also called the Holy One. That was written in the Greek language.
Oh, and what else is written is that Jesus is the God of Thomas. I'm with Thomas.
Tim
Tim2 wrote:
Paul is a Trinitarian. All the apostles are. All the saints are. Anyone who is not a Trinitarian is preaching a false gospel and is eternally condemned. But I am called to the ministry of reconciliation, so please, repent and believe the gospel, and you will be saved.
******************************Wow, Tim. I'm not quite sure what to say here. Except for as many verses as you have quoted, there can also be others to show the opposite of what you are trying to prove. In other words, there is NO explicit teaching of the Trinity – ANYWHERE in the Bible. I mean, you can quote the baptismal formula in Matthew, and possibly use the KJV with it's corrupt text of 1 John 5:7 – but other than that, Paul never explicity taught the Trinity ANYWHERE! You can only call Paul a Trinitarian by dedcution. For example: “If Paul calls this here, then it means this here, and it there – then here!” It's impossible, I say.
Listen, if Paul was a Trinitarian —– he would have really dug into that doctrine. He would have given examples from “everyday life” and taught it “plainly” as he was accustomed to doing.
Tell me, Tim, if you were a child, could you understand the Trinity from the verses you gave out? Would you have the mind power to cut and paste and put those ideas together to form the idea of a triunity of God? You couldn't. You wouldn't. A child would not understand the Trinity (like you do). You know why? It is not of God, but of men. MEN WROTE THE TRINITY. I say that with confidence because the Trinity doctrine is nowhere to be found laid out in scripture.
Various, famous Trinitarians (C.S. Lewis, Swindoll, McCdowell) all have DIFFERENT definitions of the Trinity. Some even oppose one another. Why is this? Isn't there a definition laid out in scripture that we can ALL follow? The answer is no.
I appreciate your passion, Tim. I appreciate the spirit by which you debate with others. I think you're wrong. But I will listen and investigate everything you present here…….
Hi Not 3in1
Thanks. I'm glad you're investigating the Trinity. It would make me very sad to know that you or anyone was resolved that the Trinity was not true and refused to investigate it further.
I'd like to take you up on your statement that all the verses I cited can be refuted with other verses. Could you please show me verses that say, “Jesus is not God” or “Jesus is not the power and wisdom of God” or “The Spirit is not the Lord,” etc.?
Thanks,
TimHi Tim2,
I've been studying the Trinity since 2003. It was then that two JW's came to my door and told me that the Trinity wasn't true! Well, I was just blown over, to be quite frank! I couldn't believe what they were saying! Of course the Trinity was true! I had believed it all my life! So, I set out to prove them wrong (well, I wanted to witness to them – ha). And guess what……I've never stopped studying, and on that point, I'v never been able to prove them wrong…….still studying……:)I would love to share with you some verses that spoke to my heart proving that Jesus is not God. Give me some time and I'll give them out. Thanks.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,06:01) Nick, You're right, we don't need greek logic. We need to know what is written. What is written is that we have to understand what is written (Psalm 32:9). A wise man will hear and increase in learning. This means that you know what a word means. So when it says, “no one is holy like YHWH,” it means that if something else is called holy, it is still not as holy as YHWH. Hence, YHWH is called the Holy One. One means one. This is the Hebrew language, not greek logic. Jesus is also called the Holy One. That was written in the Greek language.
Oh, and what else is written is that Jesus is the God of Thomas. I'm with Thomas.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So if one is called something and another called the same that is PROOF they are the same?
Sounds like weak greek logic to me.Hi Nick,
If a statement indicates that there is “one” who is X, that means that whoever is called X is that one. This is the meaning of all languages. It also happens to be true of greek logic. If something is consistent with greek logic, does that make it false?
Tim
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