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Hi Not3in1,
Thankfully, the answer to your question is in the text. “Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and My God.'” Thomas said it to Him, to Jesus.
I base my beliefs on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible doesn't force us to choose between Jesus being the Son of God and Jesus being God. The Bible asserts that Jesus is both.
If Jesus at His return asks me who He is, I can only hope for grace to say, with knees trembling, “You are my God.”
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 02 2007,08:40) Hi, I was raised Trinitarian, slipped into semi-Arianism for a while because I thought the Trinity was a human invention, but then I struggled to understand who Jesus is. This year I've emerged from studying the Scripture with assurance that Jesus is God, equal to the Father and the Spirit, the most holy and blessed Trinity, amen. So I'll just say that I know how easy it is to slip into Arianism, so if you're convinced that Jesus is not God, please keep an open mind and be willing to consider that maybe the Bible actually does assert that He is God. I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh. So Jesus is Yahweh. I don't see any way around this.
I'm sure you've considered that argument though, so I'd like to throw out some verses I haven't seen on the boards, forgive me if you've already discussed them:
1. Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32. John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.” I think Luke isn't being too subtle here. I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification. So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”?
2. Study Luke 8:39. Jesus tells the man to describe “what great things God has done for you,” and the man tells the city “what great things Jesus had done for him.” I understand that if you're arian you will look at this and say it's just referring to Jesus as the image of God, but please consider if Luke is using the name of Jesus interchangeably with God, and if this does in fact mean that Jesus is God.
3. Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13. We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and Omega.” The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is. In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20. And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13. Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.”
Thanks for talking about this. Obviously this is the most important thing we can believe, so please, Almighty God, have mercy on us poor sinners and lead us into the truth. God bless you. Tim
Tim2Welcome!
Didnt know you were here.
Thanks for your testimony.
Blessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2007,20:57) Hi tim2,
You say
' My point is that since Revelation 1:8 is spoken by God, and Revelation 22:13 is spoken by Jesus, and they say the same thing, then Jesus must be God. Jesus says in 22:13, “I am the first and the last.” This is also what YHWH says in Isaiah 44:6 -“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” So if Jesus says the same thing, then Jesus must be YHWH.”
MUST BE?
MUST BE?Truth is written and not derived by inference.
Greek logic has no part in the loving search of scripture.
NHYou are one to mention inferrence.
You infer that the Son is a Son before he was born in the flesh, and then you infer that he was born again at the Jordan.
Amazing!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 03 2007,00:39) Tim, You wrote:
Quote I think the passage is consistent with Trinitarian doctrine at the most basic level. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each individually God, it is proper to call any one of them God. So, my first impression is that Paul is probably referring to the Father with the title of God, and as he does in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (and many other places), he refers to Jesus with the title of Lord. That's a fair enough explanation, but I would assert that Paul is using extremely sloppy language here if that is his intent, especially considering the application. He is calling on three distinct witnesses in his charge to Timothy, much the same as one would call on different witnesses in a trial.
For example, if I were to call as witnesses to the fact that I got married the presiding minister, Joe, and Tom, you would think me silly if I told you that Joe was in fact the presiding minister in attendance. The natural assumption is that none of the three witnesses overlap in identity. So given Paul's list, one would naturally assume that Jesus is neither God, nor one of the elect angels. Otherwise, there would be no point in calling on him as a separate witness.
Also, if Paul is merely using the term “God” interchangeably with “the Father”, then we have him making the following statement:
“I charge you before the Father, the Son, and the ?elect angels? … .”
As a Trinitarian, why would Paul insult the Holy Spirit but substituting the elect angels in what should have been the most natural opportunity to invoke the Trinitarian formula?
I understand your point of view, but I think that it is a little weak here.
Hi WIT,
This post was a few pages back but it caught my eye. I thought Tim2 answered you very cogently, as he has done with every body's questions – even the straw man nonsense that permeates this thread. Further to what he wrote, Paul, when writing of Yehsua and the Father will generally assign the appelative “theos” to the Father, and “kurios” to the Son. Though, theos is sometimes used in reference to the Son and kurios to the Father. Although I see no obvious disparity in what they connote when used to identify these two individual persons in the same sentence. Kurios is, after all, used in substitute of YHWH in the NT etc etc….If you want to really challenge the trinity doctrine with a single verse submission, as is your habit, it'll need to be a good one. You'll need to produce a proof text in which the Father's ontology is expressly contrasted with the Son's, and shown to be unmistakably higher (in order). Bear in mind that I (and Tim2, I imagine) affirm that Yeshua existed in the form of God and “was God”, and then put on the cloak of humanity, without relinquishing His intrinsic divine nature. So a verse in which Yeshua is identified as a man will not cut it.
Blessings
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,05:11) 1. Philippians 2 does say “form of God.” I honestly haven't studied this so don't look to me for the official Trinitarian dogma here. But some things from the passage do stand out to me. In 2:6, “He existed in the form of God.” In 2:7, He took “the form of a bond-servant.” I don't know how “morthe” is used in Greek, Isaiah 1:8 would probably know;
The pre-incarnate Logos “existed” (Gr. huparcho) in the “form” (Gr. Morphe) of God (Philippians 2:6). Lets define these terms:Huparcho – From G5259 and G756; to begin under (quietly), that is, come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxilliary to principal verb): – after behave, live. (Strong’s Concordance).
“not the common verb for being (eimi). Huparcho stresses the essence of a person's nature – the continuous state or condition of something” (cf. William Barclay, The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians [Philadelphia: Westminster, 1976], p. 35).
Morphe – Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form. (Strong’s Concordance).
“always signifies a form which truly and fully expresses the being which underlies it” (James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1930], p. 417).
Here is how Robertson exegetes Phil 2:6:-
Being (uparxwn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of uparxw. In the form of God (en morfh qeou). Morfh means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.
A prize (arpagmon). Predicate accusative with hghsato. Originally words in -mov signified the act, not the result (-ma). The few examples of arpagmov (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to arpagma, like baptismov and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won (“robbery”).
To be on an equality with God (to einai isa qeoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hghsato, “the being equal with God” (associative instrumental case qew after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Revelation 21:16. (Robertson's Word Pictures [NT])
So, considering the grammar in this verse it is clear that Paul was equating the very nature of the Logos (i.e. the essential attributes as shown in the form) with which He continuously existed as, with the Father’s, thereby affirming that He was God. As John testified about in John 1:1c. You cannot apply the kind of language that Paul used in Phil 2:6 to an inferior class of being.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 02 2007,17:31) Hi Ken, You left out a word in Revelation 1:8 that might be relevant to our discussion, “God.” “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God.
If your Bible doesn't contain “God,” at least it has “Almighty.” Is someone other than God the Almighty?
Are you really so willing to qualify the words of the Almighty in Revelation 1:8, that He is the Alpha and the Omega, by saying this only refers to the creation, as in 3:14? I'd just be cautious about that.
Isaiah 41:4 says, “I, YHWH, am the first, and with the last. I am He.” So are you also restricting YHWH's claim to creation as well?
God bless you,
Tim
Tim2,I had prepared a long scriptural responce then I realized for what? There are scriptures that point both ways because of this there is no clear answer to our question. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in to guide and teach us. There is a reason why the scriptures are not clear and that reason is to rely on the very Spirit of God. What does the Holy Spirit say to our heart?
For me the Holy Spirit says that there are two persons with the same Spirit that is the God head.You give scripture I can give scripture. You give more scripture I can give more scripture. What is the end result? The scriptures don't rule either way. I believe it is a truth left up to the Spirit to teach.
I have given my heart to God. The Holy Spirit has ruled in this matter for me. I have no ruling of my own.One thing I do know for sure arguing about this is not of God. You can use a pretty word like debate but until EVERYONE puts their pride down and listens to the Spirit we will never be one in this matter.
He who has ears listen to what the spirit says.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. ETC!
I pray that if I missed the Spirit's teaching that the Spirit would correct me. Thus far the Holy Spirit has already given me my answer. It is correct in my heart and spirit. You will say the same. Then the only thing is to rely on the Spirit to correct one of us NOW or be it in the future. There was no doubt that it was the Holy Spirit who gave me the ruling in this matter.
If our heart is right then rely on the Spirit and be not prideful. We cannot be adults and learn from the Spirit we must be children this is the only way to be sinsitive to the Spirit. If there is a question as to weather something was from the Spirit then it was not from the Spirit. Our spirit bears witness with the Holy Spirit.
Judgement day is not here! Let us not judge one another! We are of the the same body but different members of the body. The hand cannot see! We are not all the eye. We are not all teachers, not all pastors, ministers, evangelist ETC.Seems that “WE” are not listening to the head. When the Head says see He is not talking to the hand. When the Head says grab-pickup He is not spreaking to the eye. The hand cannot tell the eye what it sees. “WE” are nothing but of one Spirit IF we hear? And do not try to hear with our eyes!
(1Cor. 12)IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Ken,
It sounds like you're frustrated with the discussion (ok, argument) because it doesn't seem that the Scriptures provide a definite answer as to whether Jesus is God. I'd encourage you to consider that they do. God wants to be understood. Jeremiah 9:24 says, “Let him who boasts, boast in this, that he understands and knows Me.” Again, Psalm 32:9 -“Do not be as the horse or the mule which have no understanding.”
So we have to understand God so we can worship Him in spirit and truth. We have received the Spirit of God so that we can know the things freely given to us by God. But the Spirit doesn't impart a different truth to each of the saints. He imparts the same truth to all the saints. All the saints for 1500 years have adhered to the ecumenical creeds. This is done to obey Paul's commandment in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that we all speak the same thing. If you are receiving a different doctrine than the body of Christ, it is not a correct doctrine.
You say you believe there are two persons in the Godhead. So you believe that Jesus is God, equal to the Father? If so, that is great. You are not far from the truth. All that remains is for you to accept that the Spirit is also God, and I pray that God will reveal this to you quickly.
Blessings,
TimHi Nick,
I worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. This means that as I honor the Father, so I honor the Son and the Spirit. All my praise and thanks is given to all three equally and together as one.
Do you worship Jesus?
Tim
Hi Nick,
I worship one God. My understanding of deity is that it means “a god” or God. So I worship one Deity, YHWH.
Worship is given to the Spirit every time He is called Holy. There is no one holy like YHWH -1 Samuel 2:2.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,20:17) Hi Ken, It sounds like you're frustrated with the discussion (ok, argument) because it doesn't seem that the Scriptures provide a definite answer as to whether Jesus is God. I'd encourage you to consider that they do. God wants to be understood. Jeremiah 9:24 says, “Let him who boasts, boast in this, that he understands and knows Me.” Again, Psalm 32:9 -“Do not be as the horse or the mule which have no understanding.”
So we have to understand God so we can worship Him in spirit and truth. We have received the Spirit of God so that we can know the things freely given to us by God. But the Spirit doesn't impart a different truth to each of the saints. He imparts the same truth to all the saints. All the saints for 1500 years have adhered to the ecumenical creeds. This is done to obey Paul's commandment in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that we all speak the same thing. If you are receiving a different doctrine than the body of Christ, it is not a correct doctrine.
You say you believe there are two persons in the Godhead. So you believe that Jesus is God, equal to the Father? If so, that is great. You are not far from the truth. All that remains is for you to accept that the Spirit is also God, and I pray that God will reveal this to you quickly.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi Tim2,I believe the Son is God being the Son of God. The Holy Spirit I believe IS GOD. The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit that the Son is absoulety full of.
There are scriptures for both sides Tim if their weren't then we wouldn't be having this “discussion”. Perhaps the Son is PART of God before He became flesh as your son or daughter is Part of You. Their is of course no mention of God having a wife as the Mormons believe. However a cell starts as one then splits. I'm sure an almighty God could do the same. Of course there is no scripture for this either.
We, as well we should be, left with only the WORD of God. I have pondered over the scriptures for and against. Their is no clear answer.
The Holy Spirit paid me a visit at work I wasn't studing the trinity at the time. When the Holy Spirit pays you a visit you know it as your spirit bears witness. The Holy Spirit said God is two persons in one Spirit. NOW He didn't say the Word was or wasn't created or born I have no witness as for that.
The Holy Spirit is not a third separate person. The same Spirit is in both the Father and Son. And the same Spirit is in you and I and anyone who is born again of the Spirit.In the end when the Son gives all things to the Father, God will be all in all (1Cor.15:28) through the Spirit.
Jesus has the Spirit without measure any more of the Spirit and the Son would be God the Father. But He is not the Father but the Son who has the same Spirit as the Father with His own spirit the spirit of Jesus.Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit [the Holy Spirit filled Him with Joy] then began to speak to the Father.
Seems to me the Father paid Him a visit just as the Spirit pays us a vist and we rejoice as our spirit bears witness. I have the Holy Spirit But I am not God. The apostles were full of the Holy Spirit But were not God. Only Jesus was begotten of the Father when He became flesh.
Until the Holy Spirit shows me different I will not go against God. There are no scriptures that say one way or another. Which is perhaps why the Spirit paid me a visit.
“But the Spirit doesn't impart a different truth to each of the saints”. No! The hand doesn't see.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Nick,
It sounds like you agree that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. I'm not sure why we would be arguing, if that's what you believe.
Do not trust the spirit that told you, “God is two persons in one spirit.” If that is what the spirit told you, then it was not the Holy Spirit. The Bible asserts that God exists in three persons, not two. The Holy Spirit never contradicts Scripture.
You need to learn the Bible in conjunction with all the other saints. This is why God appointed teachers in the church (Ephesians 4:11). All the saints have declared that there are three persons in the Godhead. Humble yourself, and prayerfully consider if they are right.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,21:39) Hi Nick, It sounds like you agree that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. I'm not sure why we would be arguing, if that's what you believe.
Do not trust the spirit that told you, “God is two persons in one spirit.” If that is what the spirit told you, then it was not the Holy Spirit. The Bible asserts that God exists in three persons, not two. The Holy Spirit never contradicts Scripture.
You need to learn the Bible in conjunction with all the other saints. This is why God appointed teachers in the church (Ephesians 4:11). All the saints have declared that there are three persons in the Godhead. Humble yourself, and prayerfully consider if they are right.
Tim
Do not trust the spirit that told you, “God is two persons in one spirit.” If that is what the spirit told you, then it was not the Holy Spirit. The Bible asserts that God exists in three persons, not two. The Holy Spirit never contradicts Scripture.Sir what makes you judge? You believe you know the scriptures. You believe what the whore has taught you and all of her daughters. As I said you cannot conclusively find anywhere in the bible that God is a Trinity or three persons it cannot be done they have been trying for centuries and cannot prove one way or the other Period.
As far as you telling me what is the Holy Spirit and what the Holy spirit would say I would tell you are of your own spirit and are listening to the spirit of the Harlot who is the antichrist!
Does scripture lie? What other organization fits the descripition of the Harlot? You believe the lies then tell me it was not the Spirit Sir if you had the Spirit you would not be in error but you bask in the lies of the whore and her daughters.
If I have not the Holy Spirit then Jesus is a liar!Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Who should I believe the Son of God or the son of the whore?!
I would say get thee behind me satan!
IHN,
Ken
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,21:28) Hi Nick, I worship one God. My understanding of deity is that it means “a god” or God. So I worship one Deity, YHWH.
Worship is given to the Spirit every time He is called Holy. There is no one holy like YHWH -1 Samuel 2:2.
Tim
Hi Tim,
So you worship three deities in different ways.
Are some of your deities lesser ones then?If you worship the Spirit then what becomes of Romans 8 where we are told the Spirit helps us worship God?
Is 1:18 wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
This post was a few pages back but it caught my eye. I thought Tim2 answered you very cogently, as he has done with every body's questions – even the straw man nonsense that permeates this thread. Further to what he wrote, Paul, when writing of Yehsua and the Father will generally assign the appelative “theos” to the Father, and “kurios” to the Son. Though, theos is sometimes used in reference to the Son and kurios to the Father. Although I see no obvious disparity in what they connote when used to identify these two individual persons in the same sentence. Kurios is, after all, used in substitute of YHWH in the NT etc etc….It's nice to know that my posts still “catch your eye”, though it seems that there is a certain measure of disdain that comes along with that attention.
Yes, Tim answered my general question concerning the Timothy passage quite ably, (though he did leave some of my specific questions unanswered). I don't agree with his answer, but I certainly have no intention of demanding further responses from him on that point. He has given his point of view, and I have given mine. And now, you have given yours as well.
Is 1:18 wrote:
Quote If you want to really challenge the trinity doctrine with a single verse submission, as is your habit, it'll need to be a good one. You'll need to produce a proof text in which the Father's ontology is expressly contrasted with the Son's, and shown to be unmistakably higher (in order). Bear in mind that I (and Tim2, I imagine) affirm that Yeshua existed in the form of God and “was God”, and then put on the cloak of humanity, without relinquishing His intrinsic divine nature. So a verse in which Yeshua is identified as a man will not cut it. Just for the record, do you object to focusing on one verse, (within context), at a time?
In any case, after thinking about this extensively, I must admit that there is a certain degree of genius in the Trinity doctrine, even if it took centuries to plug up all the holes that it originally had. (See here for a history of its development.) There are very few scriptures unaccounted for in its construct, and when it appears to be inconsistent, or simply irrational, the final plank of the doctrine is gleefully asserted: “It's a msytery!” The doctrine holds at once that Yeshua is
1. Both immortal and mortal
2. Both god of all and servant of god
3. Both Creator and part of creation
4. Both able to be tempted and not able to be temptedand so on! The doctrine is so duplicitous by nature that it is impossible to pin it down in any regard.
Well, I have decided to embrace the extra-biblical musings of the church fathers, and add a modest improvement of my own. Why not evolve the doctrine even further into a Trinity within a Trinity? Instead of a dual natured Christ, why not make him “tri-natured”, completing the divine mathematical formula? Afterall, why limit Jesus to existing merely as God and man, when he could be described as God, man, and angel? Certainly, I need not recount all of the Trinitarian assertions that Christ appeared as the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament. There are even passages that show men falling down before this angel in worship. Obviously, Jesus, the Man, had not yet appeared on the scene, and Jesus, the God, no man can see. So, clearly, it was Jesus, the Angel, who dabbled in the earthly realm in those days. And, since angel beings are a different ontological category from both God and man, Jesus must have had to take on the nature of angels, in addition to the natures of God and man, in order to appear as he did.
Now, Is 1:18, if you think that I have gone too far, I would wonder if you could demonstrate that fact scripturally, bearing in mind that in this paradigm I do not discount the proposition that Jesus is above the angels, and superior to them. I merely assert that he also shares their nature as demonstrated in the doctrine that asserts that he was the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament. Personally, I think that my new theory “accounts for all the biblical data” more completely than your current belief, so I can't see what your objection would be.
Oh, and just for fun, here is a “one verse proof text” for my theory:
“And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus (Galations 4:14).”
(For the record, for those who are unaware of my beliefs, I do not believe that Yeshua is YHWH. The preceding is simply an example of how I understand the Trinity doctrine to work, which in short is: come up with the philosophical construct first, account for possible objections, then interpret scripture through this construct after the fact.)
Hi Nick,
No, I don't worship three deities. I worship one Deity, YHWH.
I worship the Holy Spirit because He is God. The Spirit has also indwelt me as a believer in Christ and helps me worship worship God. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's what the Bible says.
Tim
Ken,
I'm glad you realize that this is a matter of eternal condemnation. I was a little shy of bringing that up, but thanks be to God that it has been brought up. The fact is, if the Trinity is correct, then those who reject the Trinity are not saved. And if the Trinity is not correct, then those who worship the Trinity are not saved. So that's why we're here, I hope, we're trying to save each other from damnable heresies.
If you are right that the Trinity is a product of the heretical Roman Catholic church, then Luther, Calvin, and all Protestants who follow them are equally damned. In that case, the seed of Abraham is quite small, scarcely as great as the stars above.
But if the Trinity is heresy, then why did Jesus tell us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
If you really did receive a word from the Holy Spirit, why don't you publish a new Bible, with a chapter after Revelation, with one verse: “The Holy Spirit told me that God is two persons in one Spirit.”
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,23:48) Hi Nick, No, I don't worship three deities. I worship one Deity, YHWH.
I worship the Holy Spirit because He is God. The Spirit has also indwelt me as a believer in Christ and helps me worship worship God. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's what the Bible says.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Do you worship your trinity god by name or one deity at a time?
So you both worship the Spirit as well as the Spirit helping you worship the trinty of which the Spirit is a part?
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