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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,03:57) Hi Tim2,
You say
Romans 10:13 -“Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
“Romans 10:13 is quoting Joel 2:32, “Whoever calls on the name of YHWH will be delivered.”The word used for LORD is kyrios and not YHWH and it is not shown as a quote in the KJV.
God has a son.
Hi Nick,In Hebrew, Joel 2:32 says YHWH. This was translated as kyrios in the Septuagint and by Paul in Romans. So in Romans 10:9-13 Paul is talking about YHWH.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
We are not talking inference.
Trinity theory proposes that the Son was never a true son but an eternal person in God who came and was CALLED a son.Quote (Tim2 @ April 03 2007,04:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,03:57) Hi Tim2,
You say
Romans 10:13 -“Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
“Romans 10:13 is quoting Joel 2:32, “Whoever calls on the name of YHWH will be delivered.”The word used for LORD is kyrios and not YHWH and it is not shown as a quote in the KJV.
God has a son.
Hi Nick,In Hebrew, Joel 2:32 says YHWH. This was translated as kyrios in the Septuagint and by Paul in Romans. So in Romans 10:9-13 Paul is talking about YHWH.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
It says almost the same words as Joel but is it a quote?Hi Tim,
Trinity is not taught in the bible and is only “found” there by those with a dredge set to gather inferences.
We should have more respect for Jesus as our teacher and ignore the cleverness of men.Hi Tim2,
You say
“I understand you're confused by the fact that Jesus is both God and the Son of God, so I'll explain it for you as often as you would like me to. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each of them can therefore be called God, as they are throughout Scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6, Titus 2:13, Acts 5:4).”
Then you say
“Very frequently we see the Father given the title of God, and thus Jesus is called the Son of God, meaning “Son of God the Father” or “Son of the Father.” This does not mean “Son of the Son.”So if you decide that when the Father is referred to as “God” frequently in the bible is not the trinity then it becomes OK for you to refer to Jesus as being CALLED the Son of God?
Is God “the TRINITY” ever referred to in the bible?
Hi Tim2,
You say
'I admire your devotion to Solo Scriptura. The Bible alone is the authority for the faith. So please search the Scriptures to see if the doctrine of the three ecumenical creeds is contained in them. And be willing to listen to what the church fathers have to say just as you would listen to what anyone else has to say. God wants us to talk about the Bible to each other and even preserve our thoughts for thousands of years so that we can strengthen each other.”But then you defend the teaching of something not taught in the bible at all.
What gives?
2Jn
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Hi Nick,
I'm trying to keep up with everything. Remind me if I miss something.
1. Philippians 2 does say “form of God.” I honestly haven't studied this so don't look to me for the official Trinitarian dogma here. But some things from the passage do stand out to me. In 2:6, “He existed in the form of God.” In 2:7, He took “the form of a bond-servant.” I don't know how “morthe” is used in Greek, Isaiah 1:8 would probably know; but I do know that Jesus came not to be served but to serve. So I would say at the least, Jesus is as much God in this passage as He is a bond-servant. The other thing that jumps out at me about this passage is that Jesus “did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.” What this tells me is that Jesus made the choice not to assert equality with God. The fact that Jesus could make this choice strongly suggests to me that He has the same authority as the Father.
2. With regard to Romans 10/Joel 2, I don’t believe they had quotation marks in Paul’s time, so all quotations in English bibles are, sorry to use the word, inferences. However, even if it’s not a quotation, we know already that everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved. How then could Paul assert that we are saved by calling on kyrios Jesus if Jesus is not YHWH?
3. It is my understanding that Trinity theory does assert that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, begotten before all ages. It seems to me that this is what the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds say. Jesus is eternally the Son of the Father in the sense that he is begotten of the Father from all eternity.
4. Is the Trinity taught in the Bible? I think it is, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. I think it’s most explicit in Matthew 28:19. (This is turning into a discussion of the whole Bible! Why am I complaining?)
5. Is God “the Trinity” ever referred to in the Bible? Well there’s Matthew 28:19, but I think you mean, when does the word “God” mean Trinity? I think this is abundant throughout the Old Testament. Here are some verses to consider: Exodus 8:10, 9:14, Deuteronomy 4:35, 4:39, 32:12, 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:2, Isaiah 43:10-12, 44:6-8, 45:5-7. All these verses generally assert that there is no God besides YHWH. But we know from John 20:28 that Jesus is our God. So Jesus must be YHWH. In the New Testament, I would say “God” is referring to the Trinity whenever it is not referring to a specific person in the Trinity. Sorry for the tautology. But, for example, 2 John 9 says, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” I would say “God” here cannot be limited to any of the three persons, so God probably refers to the whole Trinity.
6. You say I defend the teaching of something not taught in the Bible at all. Ok, I’ve shown you numerous verses to back up the assertions of the ecumenical creeds. That Jesus is God is clearly taught in the Bible. That there is only one God is clearly taught in the Bible. That the Father and Jesus are one is clearly taught in the Bible. I understand where you’re coming from because I’ve been there. Please show me and the millions of saints who have adhered to the ecumenical creeds for 1500 years a little respect by considering that maybe we are basing our understanding on the Bible.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
“How then could Paul assert that we are saved by calling on kyrios Jesus if Jesus is not YHWH?”It is not a foreign concept in the salvation message of Jesus Christ.
Acts 22
” 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. “
1Cor 1
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
WhatIsTrue,
Thanks for getting back to me. You're right, my explanation doesn't do full justice to the passage. I think the key to passages where Paul talks about God and Christ (such as 1 Corinthians 11:3) is to remember that the Son voluntarily took on a lower state than the Father in becoming man and our mediator to God. This is what Trinitarians assert, anyway. And I think it's found in Philippians 2:6. So in a sense, because Jesus is man, He is less than the Father in that respect. And passages such as Ephesians 1:22 suggest that Christ is God's ruler over creation until all things are put under His feet. So the Christ is sort of a “vice-regent.” Sorry for not being clear here but I'm not expert on this topic. My point is that the Son, as the mediator, as the Christ, occupies a special place in Paul's theology as the person through whom the reconciliation and subjection of all creation will occur. So it is proper for Paul to often refer to God, the Christ/mediator, and creation because the Christ is both God and man (and thus God and creation) in one person. 2 Timothy 5:21 is an example of this.
And I don't know why Paul mentions the elect angels. I'm just trying to base my understanding of God on the entire Bible, and it is clear to me that the entire Bible asserts the doctrine of the Trinity as contained in the ecumenical creeds.
Blessings,
TimWhat this tells me is that Jesus made the choice not to assert equality with God.
*************************
When you ARE God – can you even have the ability to “choose” not to have the equality that is already yours? I would think that to be impossible, truly. God is who he is. In his words, “I AM who I AM” – I don't think it would be possible for the second person in the trinity (who is also God) to be anything less than what he is. In other words, to choose to be a “lesser” God temporarily. This all sounds too incrediable to me.Hi Nick,
I don't know what existing in the form of God means. I also don't know what the form of a bond-servant means, or the likeness of men, or the appearance of man. But I do know that Jesus was a bond-servant and a man.
I don't understand your point about Paul calling Jesus Lord. You quote those passages as if they prove that Jesus is not YHWH. But according to Romans 12, the same is Lord over all, and this Lord is YHWH and Jesus.
Tim
Hi tim2,
Reliance on the crowds jostling each other down the broad road of history is of course no indication of security.
For 1800 years heresy has been orthodoxy .Hi Tim2,
How many gods do you have then?
Jesus told us his father is the one true God so would you disagree.?
Paul told us that for us there is one God, the Father, and one lord Jesus.
Would you take issue with him too or are you not yet among the US?God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself [2Cor 5]and Jesus had explained this to Thomas in Jn 14 so your rationale is empty philosophy.
Hi Nick,
Well, none of what you said seems to take away from John 20:28. It seems to me that you are only accepting some passages of Scripture and ignoring or, dare I say, rationalizing away others, such as John 20:28.
The fact is I don't have a rationale for John 20:28. I don't need one. It's explicit. Jesus is my God. You can't deny it because that's what it says. The Bible also says there is one God, YHWH, so that's the only God I believe in. The Bible also says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are YHWH. The Bible also says that they are not each other. There is no rationalizing here. It's straight from the Bible.
Tim
Tim2,
Indulge me for a moment: What if you were a fly on the wall when Jesus appeared to Thomas. What if you saw this:
Thomas sees the Lord. He falls down at his feet and stretches out his hands, and says, “My Lord….” and then with pure joy, and thankfulness, he stretches out his hands towards heaven and proclaimes, “…and my God!” What I am proposing here is – body language. The thing is…..we'll never know, will we? If Thomas had done what I am sugessting, it would make perfect sense why Jesus did not correct him (as he did to others). Just a thought.
Whenever you choose one passage, or favorite sections of scripture to base a faith on….you are on shakey ground. What does the whole tenor of the bible say? That Jesus is God, or that he is the Son of God?
If Jesus were to ask you, “Tim, who do you say that I am?” Am I to believe that you will answer him, “You are my God!” If so, you may want to review Peter's answer to the very same question. Peter's answer was given to him by God!
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