The Trinity Doctrine

[Not3in1]

Welcome, Tim2!

I follow Paul's “creed” in 1 Cor. 8:6. I don't know of any other “creed” in the Bible. Do you?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 02 2007,07:54)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,11:01) To Isaiah and WorshippingJesus. Lets cut through the crap and look at what you believe or part of what you believe. Is there anything here you disagree with? Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Amen!  The Athanasian Creed is awesome.  Thanks be to God.

Hi Tim 2 and welcome,
Why follow him?

[Phoenix]

Hi Jerry

You said in another thread…

Quote

John 5:18 and Phillipians 2:6 also clearly state Jesus' being God. IMHO

Wasnt he talking about being Son of God?

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Didnt Jesus say that verse?

Hugs
Phoenix

[Tim2]

Hi,

I was raised Trinitarian, slipped into semi-Arianism for a while because I thought the Trinity was a human invention, but then I struggled to understand who Jesus is. This year I've emerged from studying the Scripture with assurance that Jesus is God, equal to the Father and the Spirit, the most holy and blessed Trinity, amen. So I'll just say that I know how easy it is to slip into Arianism, so if you're convinced that Jesus is not God, please keep an open mind and be willing to consider that maybe the Bible actually does assert that He is God. I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh. So Jesus is Yahweh. I don't see any way around this.

I'm sure you've considered that argument though, so I'd like to throw out some verses I haven't seen on the boards, forgive me if you've already discussed them:

1. Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32. John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.” I think Luke isn't being too subtle here. I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification. So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”?

2. Study Luke 8:39. Jesus tells the man to describe “what great things God has done for you,” and the man tells the city “what great things Jesus had done for him.” I understand that if you're arian you will look at this and say it's just referring to Jesus as the image of God, but please consider if Luke is using the name of Jesus interchangeably with God, and if this does in fact mean that Jesus is God.

3. Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13. We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and Omega.” The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is. In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20. And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13. Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.”

Thanks for talking about this. Obviously this is the most important thing we can believe, so please, Almighty God, have mercy on us poor sinners and lead us into the truth. God bless you. Tim

[Is 1:18]

Hi Tim,
Welcome. To the best of my knowledge some of the verses you cited haven't been mentioned in the 636 pages of this thread. Not a bad accomplishment to bring new material to a thread that long. BTW I agree with you.

Blessings

[Phoenix]

Hi Tim2

Welcome to Heaven.Net.

Firstly I want to let you know (and everyone else) that I am pretty new to the bible. I have only studied it for 3 months (going on 4). Id stick to 3 though because some of the other times (during the 3 months) was spent on other things that are considered spiritual.

Anyway, the point of my reply is opposite to what Is1:18 says to you, and this is “I disagree” with you. Of course, until I am completely convinced that there is a Trinity. Which I havent been yet.

Quote

I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh. So Jesus is Yahweh. I don't see any way around this.

I wondered if you noticed… that the only commandment of the 10 Commandments that is not mentioned in the New Testament is the third commandment…
Exodus 20:7
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
If I am wrong, then please do correct me.

When Thomas refused to believe that Jesus returned of course he is going to be full of shock and bewilderment to see that it IS Jesus and therefore exclaim “My Lord and my God!”. Jesus was the first to reappear(from the dead) and no one has seen God. Wouldnt it be a natural response to blurt out “and My God!”. I am not vouching that I am correct but this is the way I see it. And I try to imagine myself in Thomas' situation.

Quote

1. Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32. John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.” I think Luke isn't being too subtle here. I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification. So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”?

In my opinion, No. May I ask why you would miss out the rest of that sentence in Luke 1:32 “…and will be called the Son of the Most High…“? Also compare that with Mark 9:7
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

Arrgghh Gotta Go!! be back in a couple of hours my TV program is on 'Riddles of the Bible' I will finish off the rest

Hehe

God Bless

Hugs
Phoenix

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 02 2007,08:40)

Hi, I was raised Trinitarian, slipped into semi-Arianism for a while because I thought the Trinity was a human invention, but then I struggled to understand who Jesus is.  This year I've emerged from studying the Scripture with assurance that Jesus is God, equal to the Father and the Spirit, the most holy and blessed Trinity, amen.  So I'll just say that I know how easy it is to slip into Arianism, so if you're convinced that Jesus is not God, please keep an open mind and be willing to consider that maybe the Bible actually does assert that He is God.  I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh.  So Jesus is Yahweh.  I don't see any way around this. I'm sure you've considered that argument though, so I'd like to throw out some verses I haven't seen on the boards, forgive me if you've already discussed them: 1.  Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32.  John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.”  I think Luke isn't being too subtle here.  I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification.  So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”? 2.  Study Luke 8:39.  Jesus tells the man to describe “what great things God has done for you,” and the man tells the city “what great things Jesus had done for him.”  I understand that if you're arian you will look at this and say it's just referring to Jesus as the image of God, but please consider if Luke is using the name of Jesus interchangeably with God, and if this does in fact mean that Jesus is God. 3.  Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13.  We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and Omega.”  The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is.  In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20.  And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13.  Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.” Thanks for talking about this.  Obviously this is the most important thing we can believe, so please, Almighty God, have mercy on us poor sinners and lead us into the truth.  God bless you.  Tim

Hi Tim,
Nice name.
Tim

[Tim2]

Quote (Phoenix @ April 02 2007,10:35)

Hi Tim2 Welcome to Heaven.Net. Firstly I want to let you know (and everyone else) that I am pretty new to the bible. I have only studied it for 3 months (going on 4). Id stick to 3 though because some of the other times (during the 3 months) was spent on other things that are considered spiritual. Anyway, the point of my reply is opposite to what Is1:18 says to you, and this is “I disagree” with you. Of course, until I am completely convinced that there is a Trinity. Which I havent been yet. Quote I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh.  So Jesus is Yahweh.  I don't see any way around this. I wondered if you noticed… that the only commandment of the 10 Commandments that is not mentioned in the New Testament is the third commandment… Exodus 20:7 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. If I am wrong, then please do correct me. When Thomas refused to believe that Jesus returned of course he is going to be full of shock and bewilderment to see that it IS Jesus and therefore exclaim “My Lord and my God!”. Jesus was the first to reappear(from the dead) and no one has seen God. Wouldnt it be a natural response to blurt out “and My God!”. I am not vouching that I am correct but this is the way I see it. And I try to imagine myself in Thomas' situation. Quote 1.  Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32.  John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.”  I think Luke isn't being too subtle here.  I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification.  So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”? In my opinion, No. May I ask why you would miss out the rest of that sentence in Luke 1:32 “…and will be called the Son of the Most High…“? Also compare that with Mark 9:7 Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!” Arrgghh Gotta Go!! be back in a couple of hours my TV program is on 'Riddles of the Bible' I will finish off the rest Hehe God Bless Hugs Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the welcome. I am also new to studying the Bible, having only done so for about 3 years. For most of that time, the Trinity didn't jump out at me, so I'd caution us all to keep searching before we reject it. Within my first three months of reading the Bible, when I got to Job 1:6, I actually believed that Jesus was just one of many sons of God. God forgive me. But with time, the Lord corrected me and showed me that the Trinity isn't based on only X number of verses, but on the whole of Scripture. The Trinity is asserted by the Bible as a whole, and it is the only doctrine that is consistent with the Bible as a whole. Oneness theology breaks down when we see the Father, Son, and Spirit together at the same time, as in Christ's baptism; and Arianism breaks down when we see Jesus equated with God throughout the New Testament.

So first, Phoenix, I'd encourage you to give a lot of prayerful consideration to John 20:28. How many other times in the Bible does someone yell out, “My God!” and not get rebuked? Do you really think the fourth commandment was abolished in the New Testament? “My Lord” is obviously referring to Jesus. Why wouldn't “my God” be as well?

In Luke 1:32, we have, “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.” You ask, if “great” means Jesus is God, how can he then be called the Son of God? The Trinitarian response is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each individually God, and together they are the one and same God. Lines 15 and 16 of the Athanasian Creed state this best. This means that it is right to call each person God and all three persons together God. Thus, Jesus, who is God, is also the Son of the Father, who is the same God. So it is right to call Jesus the Son of God and not mean that Jesus isn't God.

The sense I've gotten from this website is that there is a logical rather than Scriptural objection to this argument. One of the pages says, “Insert 'Trinity' in the following verses in place of 'God' and see if it makes sense.” This isn't an accurate representation of the Trinity doctrine. The Trinity doesn't assert that God is only the Father, Son, and Spirit together; it asserts that God is both each of them individually and all of them together. So in some verses (e.g. 1 John 4:8) it makes sense that “God” is referring to the entire Trinity. In other verses (e.g. Luke 1:32) it makes sense that “God” is referring only to the Father.

Again, I understand that there appear to be logical objections to this, but Scripturally it is sound. And just because it seems illogical doesn't mean it is. Remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 1:23-24, “but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

God bless you.
Tim

[kenrch]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 02 2007,08:40)

Hi, I was raised Trinitarian, slipped into semi-Arianism for a while because I thought the Trinity was a human invention, but then I struggled to understand who Jesus is.  This year I've emerged from studying the Scripture with assurance that Jesus is God, equal to the Father and the Spirit, the most holy and blessed Trinity, amen.  So I'll just say that I know how easy it is to slip into Arianism, so if you're convinced that Jesus is not God, please keep an open mind and be willing to consider that maybe the Bible actually does assert that He is God.  I think the whole Bible asserts this, but my quickest argument is John 20:28 and Exodus 20:3 -Jesus is my God, and I can have no other gods before Yahweh.  So Jesus is Yahweh.  I don't see any way around this. I'm sure you've considered that argument though, so I'd like to throw out some verses I haven't seen on the boards, forgive me if you've already discussed them: 1.  Compare Luke 1:15 with 1:32.  John “will be great in the sight of the Lord,” whereas Jesus “will be great.”  I think Luke isn't being too subtle here.  I can't think of too many times in the Bible where a person other than YHWH is called great without qualification.  So just prayerfully consider, if Jesus isn't God, wouldn't he be called, like John, “great in the sight of the Lord”? 2.  Study Luke 8:39.  Jesus tells the man to describe “what great things God has done for you,” and the man tells the city “what great things Jesus had done for him.”  I understand that if you're arian you will look at this and say it's just referring to Jesus as the image of God, but please consider if Luke is using the name of Jesus interchangeably with God, and if this does in fact mean that Jesus is God. 3.  Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13.  We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and Omega.”  The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is.  In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20.  And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13.  Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.” Thanks for talking about this.  Obviously this is the most important thing we can believe, so please, Almighty God, have mercy on us poor sinners and lead us into the truth.  God bless you.  Tim

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The beginning and the end of what? The creation of God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The beginning (first) of what? The creation of God. The last(end) of what? The creation of God. Because everything after the Word was created through the Word or Jesus.

[Tim2]

Hi Ken,

You left out a word in Revelation 1:8 that might be relevant to our discussion, “God.” “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God.

If your Bible doesn't contain “God,” at least it has “Almighty.” Is someone other than God the Almighty?

Are you really so willing to qualify the words of the Almighty in Revelation 1:8, that He is the Alpha and the Omega, by saying this only refers to the creation, as in 3:14? I'd just be cautious about that.

Isaiah 41:4 says, “I, YHWH, am the first, and with the last. I am He.” So are you also restricting YHWH's claim to creation as well?

God bless you,
Tim

[Not3in1]

Tim2 wrote:

and Arianism breaks down when we see Jesus equated with God throughout the New Testament.

**************************

LIKEWISE, would your doctrine “breakdown” when we hear Jesus tell us that he is not his Father?

[Not3in1]

Tim2 wrote:

2. Study Luke 8:39. Jesus tells the man to describe “what great things God has done for you,” and the man tells the city “what great things Jesus had done for him.” I understand that if you're arian you will look at this and say it's just referring to Jesus as the image of God, but please consider if Luke is using the name of Jesus interchangeably with God, and if this does in fact mean that Jesus is God.

*******************************

I have read this before. I have seriously studied this before. The thing is, Tim2, God works his miracles THROUGH Jesus. He also worked his miracles THROUGH Peter and Paul (they also raised the dead, for instance, and cast out demons), however that does not make Peter and Paul God anymore than it would Jesus in this instance.

[Not3in1]

Tim2 wrote:

3. Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13. We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and
Omega.” The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is. In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20. And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13. Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.”

******************************

Interesting note here: In my mother's old KJV – Rev 1:8 IS NOT IN RED! Curious, isn't it. I contend that the “first” voice that is heard is God Almighty. The second voice that is heard (John points to two voices he hears – one sounds like a “trumpet” and one sounds like “water”) is that of Christ. Check it out.

[chosenone]

When our Lord says ” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Does not this say that He couldn't be God? God has no beginning, He always was!

Blessings.

[Tim2]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,18:52)

Tim2 wrote: 3.  Compare Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13.  We have, “I am the Alpha and Omega,” says the Lord God, and “I am the Alpha and Omega.”  The only way around this for the arians that I see is if Jesus isn't the one speaking in Revelation 22:13, but I think it's obvious that He is.  In 22:12, the same Speaker says, “I am coming quickly,” which Jesus says in 22:20.  And three verses down, in 22:16, Jesus identifies Himself as the Speaker, and I don't see any transition from the Speaker in 22:13.  Finally, in 22:16, Jesus speaks of Him sending His angel, but the same angel is described in 22:6 as being sent by “the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets.” ****************************** Interesting note here:  In my mother's old KJV – Rev 1:8 IS NOT IN RED!  Curious, isn't it.  I contend that the “first” voice that is heard is God Almighty.  The second voice that is heard (John points to two voices he hears – one sounds like a “trumpet” and one sounds like “water”) is that of Christ.  Check it out.

Hi Not3in1,

1.  I agree that Jesus is not the Father.  This is a fundamental belief of Trinitarianism.  The Trinity also holds that Jesus and the Father are the same God.

2.  I also agree that Revelation 1:8 is spoken by God.  Apparently the KJV just says Lord, but the NASB says “Lord God.”  My point is that since Revelation 1:8 is spoken by God, and Revelation 22:13 is spoken by Jesus, and they say the same thing, then Jesus must be God.  Jesus says in 22:13, “I am the first and the last.”  This is also what YHWH says in Isaiah 44:6 -“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts:  'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”  So if Jesus says the same thing, then Jesus must be YHWH.

Blessings,
Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi tim2,
You say
' My point is that since Revelation 1:8 is spoken by God, and Revelation 22:13 is spoken by Jesus, and they say the same thing, then Jesus must be God. Jesus says in 22:13, “I am the first and the last.” This is also what YHWH says in Isaiah 44:6 -“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” So if Jesus says the same thing, then Jesus must be YHWH.”
MUST BE?
MUST BE?

Truth is written and not derived by inference.
Greek logic has no part in the loving search of scripture.

[Tim2]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2007,20:57)

Hi tim2, You say ' My point is that since Revelation 1:8 is spoken by God, and Revelation 22:13 is spoken by Jesus, and they say the same thing, then Jesus must be God.  Jesus says in 22:13, “I am the first and the last.”  This is also what YHWH says in Isaiah 44:6 -“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts:  'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”  So if Jesus says the same thing, then Jesus must be YHWH.” MUST BE? MUST BE? Truth is written and not derived by inference. Greek logic has no part in the loving search of scripture.

Hi Nick,

YHWH says, “I am the first and I am the last.”

Jesus says, “I am the first and the last.”

You think Jesus can say this if He's not YHWH?

And if you don't like inferences, then just take John 5:18 at face value -Jesus “was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” If you refuse to apply reason to the rest of Scripture, then don't apply it here, and just accept that Jesus is equal with God.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi tim 2,
It is not wise to agree with the logic of those who murdered Jesus.

[Tim2]

Hi Nick,

It seems to me that you're inferring that John is stating the Jewish inference about Jesus' claims in 5:18 rather than simply stating Jesus' claim about Himself. I see nothing in 5:18 that mentions the logic of the Jews. The words are those of John, an apostle of Christ. I believe Him.

But in any event, believe the words of Jesus Himself in 5:23, “all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” So please, honor the Son as you honor the Father.

By the way, I know the Jews were in a way directly responsible for Christ's death; but I also know that “he was delivered over because of my transgression” as Paul says in Romans 4:25, so I accept responsibility for Christ's death and thankfully receive His free gift of justification and life everlasting.

Thanks be to God.
Tim

[Phoenix]

Hi Tim2

Sorry about not getting back last night. I was absolutely knackered before the second program started which was 10:30 pm. I could barely stay awake to watch it so I have missed parts of it but it is screening again anyway.

Anyway, I was to get back to the 3rd option you had about the Alpha and Omega and saw that someone had already addressed it the way I saw it (Ken).

So, now I will reply to your questions…

Quote

How many other times in the Bible does someone yell out, “My God!” and not get rebuked?/QUOTE] None that I know of Do you really think the fourth commandment was abolished in the New Testament?

Nope: I dont believe any of the commandments were abolished

Quote

“My Lord” is obviously referring to Jesus.  Why wouldn't “my God” be as well?

Ok…you are right. But I wouldnt say that this meant “my God” the Father

Quote

In Luke 1:32, we have, “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”  You ask, if “great” means Jesus is God, how can he then be called the Son of God?  The Trinitarian response is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each individually God, and together they are the one and same God.  Lines 15 and 16 of the Athanasian Creed state this best.  This means that it is right to call each person God and all three persons together God.  Thus, Jesus, who is God, is also the Son of the Father, who is the same God.  So it is right to call Jesus the Son of God and not mean that Jesus isn't God.

You are asking me to believe and trust in the Athanasian creed right?

Quote

You ask, if “great” means Jesus is God, how can he then be called the Son of God?

Nope I wasnt asking that. I wouldnt even consider the word “great” to be God the Father at all. It was you that think the word great means Jesus is God. I was pointing out to you that that scripture states that he IS the Son of God.

Quote

The sense I've gotten from this website is that there is a logical rather than Scriptural objection to this argument.  One of the pages says, “Insert 'Trinity' in the following verses in place of 'God' and see if it makes sense.”  This isn't an accurate representation of the Trinity doctrine.  The Trinity doesn't assert that God is only the Father, Son, and Spirit together; it asserts that God is both each of them individually and all of them together.  So in some verses (e.g. 1 John 4:8) it makes sense that “God” is referring to the entire Trinity.  In other verses (e.g. Luke 1:32) it makes sense that “God” is referring only to the Father.

Um… the Word Trinity isnt even in the bible. So how can it be a Logical objection and not a Scriptural objection like you say?

1John 4:8
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Im sorry I didnt see the Trinity in this

Thank you for talking with me Tim2. I will keeping up with the posts from everyone.

God Bless

Hugs
Phoenix

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