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Hi W,
The Spirit is a manifestation of God so that Jesus is the physical son of God and Mary by his conception in Mary by the Holy Spirit of God. But if you say the Spirit is another “person” from the Father in God then which “Person” is the physical father of Jesus?You wisely say you do not accept 'trinity' as the the trinity concept does not fully explain God and so things should get easier for you once you grasp that the Spirit is truly the spirit of God.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 15 2007,23:42) t8, when can I expect to see your first post of the debate? 
The weekend, most likely Saturday, maybe even Friday night.I will go with your idea of me posting and you replying and leaving it at that.
Do you propose at that point for the discussion to close the door to more posts?
It could be quite useful to let others post thereafter. After all the first 2 posts will always be there which is the essence of the discussion and others could contribute some useful stuff thereafter with regards to testing what we have said.
Hi w,
You said in another thread
“It is true the word Trinity is not found in the scriptures.I dont like the word myself! Because I dont think it fully explains the nature of God”
Having reached this conclusion will you join with us in exposing this deceptive falsehood which has been espoused as essential doctrine by so many?
Hi W,
You have realised that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and now you just have to see that Jesus really is the monogenes SON of God and your doubts about trinity will be shown to be the realisation of truth, that it is a man made myth .Hi,
What chance has t8 got when all those scriptures declaring God to be a trinity are laid out?The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit so he should be scared.
Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament.
Anyway it is worth a try.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2007,22:20) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 15 2007,23:42) t8, when can I expect to see your first post of the debate?
The weekend, most likely Saturday, maybe even Friday night.I will go with your idea of me posting and you replying and leaving it at that.
Okay, look forward to seeing it. I assume you have agreed that we have a dedicated thread to the debate and that you will be posting one proof text at a time, not all twelve at once? And that I will rebutt and then submit my proof text and arguments (to which you will respond). I also assume that you agree that we should limit the questions to say three, and these will be written in summarised form at the end of the post? Twelve proof texts each is, by any standard of measure, a large quota for a debate like this and we will be looking at several months for completion so if you want to shorten it to 8 or 10, now is your opportunity. I am comfortable either way. Has seekingtruth been contacted? I think we need him involved as these are inclined to get out of hand (acrimony, straying off topic, not answering questions directly etc) without intervention by a moderator from time to time.Quote Do you propose at that point for the discussion to close the door to more posts? It could be quite useful to let others post thereafter. After all the first 2 posts will always be there which is the essence of the discussion and others could contribute some useful stuff thereafter with regards to testing what we have said.
From my experience letting those from outside the debate contribute in the same thread just disrupts the continuity of the dialogue and makes it harder to follow. If others want to make comments then it might be good to open a parallel thread for that explicit purpose. I know of other sites that do that and call it “the grandstands”, or something like that. You could make it a poll thread if you like – which i'm sure will not be favourable to me in an site like this where antitrinitarian sentiment generally prevails. But i'm not too proud to take a beating in the polls.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
Don't get too cocky t8, you are going to be forced to answer questions in this format.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,23:15) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
Don't get too cocky t8, you are going to be forced to answer questions in this format.
Apologies Is 1:18.But there is not Trinity teaching in the bible. Many things are taught, but the Trinity is not.
But you have a chance to show us something we haven't seen.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,23:29) And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken. So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Can I take that to mean that you are admitting that the Trinity isn't taught in the bible?Quote Can I take that to mean that you are admitting that the Trinity isn't taught in the bible?
t8, you have a great opportunity to refute it if it isn't. It's your job to do that in this debate. My jobs are explain how the verses you submit could be reconciled with my understanding of the doctrine (not to promote it) and expose your henotheism for the falsity that it is. I thought you would have understood this by now.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?Yes, it's an accurate label, based on the teachings outlined in his writings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
http://www.answers.com/topic/henotheismCorrect me if i'm wrong t8, but as I see it you have acknowledged openly that the Father is the “Most High” God, the source of Jesus (via a supernatural and pre-incarnate begettal) who is properly described as “a god” (not “the” God). The Father alone is eternal. The “Comforter” is exclusively the Father's personal Spirit. YHWH is unipersonal, and neither Yeshua nor the Holy Spirit are YHWH, only the Father is. There exists many uncreated gods but the Father is the greatest of these.
That's just a quick synopsis, not an exhaustive description. So please tell me if I have misprepresented any aspect of what you believe, set me straight now, because those precepts are what you will be defending in the debate.
Labels have their place IMO. If they aren't designed to denigate, but rather to accurately reflect a core set of beliefs, then what's the problem?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2007,22:25) Hi w,
You said in another thread
“It is true the word Trinity is not found in the scriptures.I dont like the word myself! Because I dont think it fully explains the nature of God”
Having reached this conclusion will you join with us in exposing this deceptive falsehood which has been espoused as essential doctrine by so many?
NHNo! Because the Henotheistic view or Arian view definatly dosnt show the full nature of God.
You see, you may think that you have God and his intrinsic nature all figured out, but I assure you you dont.
1 Cor 8:2
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.Rom 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!All of it is in Jesus, the Lord from heaven!
To think that “by Him” all things were created is mind boggling!
Check out how great he is…
How big is God? How great is His glory? Just the thought of it is enough to boggle the mind.
Psalm 19:1 states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” I recall sitting outside one evening, looking at the stars. It was years ago, near the coast of eastern North Carolina. I found myself that evening lost in meditation and prayer as I considered the vastness of the universe and the glory of God. The question kept calling to my mind for an answer, “How big is God?” Considering the vastness of His universe, the universe He created, how big would God have to be to create all of this which my eyes beheld? It was more than my mind could imagine. What little my human eyes could see that night was enough to convince me that God was beyond my comprehension. And I only could see a very small fraction of the cosmos.
Our universe is vast indeed. Our sun is one of its stars. The sun is so huge that if it were hollow, more than one million earths would fit inside. Yet, it is one of the smaller stars in our galaxy. There are many stars that are much larger than the sun; so large, in fact, that one-half billion suns would rattle around inside. There are one hundred billion stars in a galaxy, and over one hundred million galaxies which are thought to be in our universe. Our universe is vast, indeed. Our galaxy alone is thought to be one hundred thousand light years in diameter. A light year is the distance light travels in one year. Light travels at over 186,000 miles per second. That’s 11 million miles per minute, or around six trillion miles per year. What is six trillion times one hundred thousand? It is six hundred million billion. Yet that is just the distance across our galaxy. Take that and multiply it by one hundred million galaxies.
How big is God? Big enough to make all of that! “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” But there’s more. Right now, we appear to be still. Yet, we are all moving. In fact, we are moving at a speed of 1,037 miles per hour on top of the earth. That’s how fast the earth is rotating. As we spin at that speed, the earth is also moving around the universe at over 67,000 miles per hour. That’s 18.5 miles per second. So, we are moving on top of the earth, moving through space as we travel in our orbit around the sun. But our solar system is moving as well, around our galaxy; and our galaxy is moving around the universe, as is every planet and every star and every solar system and every galaxy in existence. It certainly takes a divine traffic cop to orchestrate the movements of all these bodies through space. “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” Our God’s glory truly is revealed as we ponder the heavens above. And yet, this is just one small manifestation of the glory of God. For all the vastness of this universe did not tax the intelligence of God. In His creative genius they represent only one creative thought in His mind. How great and glorious is our God!
Taken from… http://www.horizonsnet.org/sermons/glory_revealed.html
What a mighty God and creator we serve!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
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