The Trinity Doctrine

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2007,20:15)

Hi m42, This is the trinity thread. It is not the appropriate thread for continued discussion. That is why I have replied today in the appropriate thread.

Yadi Yadi Yadi – Then why are you discussing being born in sin ect ect on this thread.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
We all make little messes at times do we not?
However we should continue in the appropriate thread.

[music4two]

Kinda miss worshipping Jesus. He may have been worng on things, but at least he was entertaining.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Perhaps truth got through and he is rethinking his doctrinal base.
He would be a very useful servant of God if he was rightly aligned with truth.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 28 2007,10:05)

I am curious. How many on this board will claim to be members of the Watchtower or attend a Kingdom Hall?

I am also curious, how many on this board are Catholics?

The Catholic Faith is the Trinity doctrine according to Catholicism.

So there would be a few here who hold to the Roman Catholic faith, even if they are protesting in other matters.

[942767]

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 30 2007,08:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 29 2007,19:11) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 29 2007,08:36) The truth of the matter is that if you make rules according to your understanding of Scripture, you end up with law.  The Holy Spirit is needed to reveal Scripture in accordance with God's plan and your need.  The same Scripture can mean many things to many different people.  This is the very reason why we have been given the Holy Spirit, so that we are not bound by law, but we are free from the law in order to be led by the Spirit of Truth. Hi Oxy, And the inner LAW of the Spirit is a result of the inner teaching of the Spirit. We are not ones who listen to spirit guides but the voice of the Lord which is according to scripture. We are not lawless but led by the Spirit through the teachings of scripture. The Holy Spirit is not limited by the content of Scripture.  If this was the case, how was Scripture revealed in the first place?

Hi Oxy:

What I have found in my personal walk with the Lord, is that God can show you a personal prohpecy that pertains to you or your family or to someone else if he chooses to do so, but he is not going to reveal any thing to you that is contrary to his word.

He may give new understanding of what is already written.  “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased”.  (Dan. 12:4)  

“But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”.  (John 14:26)  “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come”. (John 16:13)

At one time I was in a church which taught that being led by the Spirit was if you had an unction to do or say something you did it and so I was doing this, but God has shown me plainly that the Holy Spirit will not led you to do something that is contrary to his word.  If it is not in accordance with his word, then God did not say it.

The following scripture is not intended for you personally for something that you said but is intended for all of us:

“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.  Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar”.  (Proverbs 30:6)

God Bless

[NickHassan]

AMEN

[music4two]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2007,01:07)

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 28 2007,10:05) I am curious. How many on this board will claim to be members of the Watchtower or attend a Kingdom Hall? I am also curious, how many on this board are Catholics? The Catholic Faith is the Trinity doctrine according to Catholicism. So there would be a few here who hold to the Roman Catholic faith, even if they are protesting in other matters.

I hope you were not including me in the Catholic group. I have been working against the Trinity and the garbage of the Catholic Church for many years.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Did God become sin?
Nonsense.

[Proclaimer]

To music4two.

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 03 2007,14:56)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2007,01:07) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 28 2007,10:05) I am curious. How many on this board will claim to be members of the Watchtower or attend a Kingdom Hall? I am also curious, how many on this board are Catholics? The Catholic Faith is the Trinity doctrine according to Catholicism. So there would be a few here who hold to the Roman Catholic faith, even if they are protesting in other matters. I hope you were not including me in the Catholic group. I have been working against the Trinity and the garbage of the Catholic Church for many years.

Actually no.

But others such as Cult Truster say many here are JWs and then he spouts of the Roman Catholic Faith, the Trinity.

Of course the reality is that there is perhaps 1 JW here and maybe a few confessing Catholics.

But I tend to think labels confuse the real issues.

Is the Trinity a true doctrine or not. The answer of course is no, but such an admission doesn't make anyone a JW. A JW is a person who belongs to the Jehovah Witness organisation that started a hundred or hundreds of years ago. They have a list of doctrines and prophecies which I disagree with and worse than that, there exclusive attitude that they are the true organisation of God to the exclusion of others who are not members is divisive and only perpetuates the division caused by man and masterminded by the one who tries in vain to divide God's Kingdom in order to make it fall.

The Body of Christ/Church began somewhere around 2000 years ago. People who try to make men trust in any denomination and claim it to be the (exclusive) Church are not wise. We who belong to the body should be in unity with the other parts.

I personally reach out to all who belong to the Body of Christ and treat such as a brother. False teachers I rightly rebuke.

[david]

T8, I would like to comment on much of what you just said, but we've been down this road before.
What I will ask you is this: What does it mean to you that when someone rejects the trinity belief, people automatically seem to assume you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Another question, just out of curiosity: I know you would never label yourself a JW. But are you a witness for God? Jesus is called the Faithful witness, and also the faithful and true witness, in Revelation. In Hebrews, we're told of the long line of or a great cloud of witnesses, after mentioning all the faithful ones of old. The Israelites were witnesses of Jehovah.
Isaiah 43:10,12 (American Standard Version)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. . . .I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange [god] among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God.
Since we are to be a follower of Jesus and follow his example, should we not be faithful witnesses as well? Who was he a witness of?

david

[music4two]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 03 2007,00:11)

To music4two. Quote (music4two @ Feb. 03 2007,14:56) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2007,01:07) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 28 2007,10:05) I am curious. How many on this board will claim to be members of the Watchtower or attend a Kingdom Hall? I am also curious, how many on this board are Catholics? The Catholic Faith is the Trinity doctrine according to Catholicism. So there would be a few here who hold to the Roman Catholic faith, even if they are protesting in other matters. I hope you were not including me in the Catholic group.  I have been working against the Trinity and the garbage of the Catholic Church for many years. Actually no. But others such as Cult Truster say many here are JWs and then he spouts of the Roman Catholic Faith, the Trinity. Of course the reality is that there is perhaps 1 JW here and maybe a few confessing Catholics. But I tend to think labels confuse the real issues. Is the Trinity a true doctrine or not. The answer of course is no, but such an admission doesn't make anyone a JW. A JW is a person who belongs to the Jehovah Witness organisation that started a hundred or hundreds of years ago. They have a list of doctrines and prophecies which I disagree with and worse than that, there exclusive attitude that they are the true organisation of God to the exclusion of others who are not members is divisive and only perpetuates the division caused by man and masterminded by the one who tries in vain to divide God's Kingdom in order to make it fall. The Body of Christ/Church began somewhere around 2000 years ago. People who try to make men trust in any denomination and claim it to be the (exclusive) Church are not wise. We who belong to the body should be in unity with the other parts. I personally reach out to all who belong to the Body of Christ and treat such as a brother. False teachers I rightly rebuke.

I appreciate that. I have never been involved in the JW's. In fact I have been involved in independent churches both as a member and in the ministry for 35 years. I agree with your concepts of denominations and accepting alol who name Christ as their saviour as my brethren. It is my understanding that to be a Christian onw must simply believe that Jesus rose (physically) from the dead. After that many get a little crosswired in doctrines and missunderstandings.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
So those who say Jesus is their saviour is proof enough to you that they are reborn brothers of Christ??
Those who believe in a historical fact of the resurrection are proven saved??

Then what gospel do you preach and to whom?

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2007,20:26)

Hi m42, So those who say Jesus is their saviour is proof enough to you that they are reborn brothers of Christ?? Those who believe in a historical fact of the resurrection are proven saved?? Then what gospel do you preach and to whom?

Trinity forum – not going there on this thread

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Trinity is one of many false gospels. It teaches a strange new God that we cannot relate to. But lets go to the gospel thread.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2007,07:34)

T8, I would like to comment on much of what you just said, but we've been down this road before. What I will ask you is this:  What does it mean to you that when someone rejects the trinity belief, people automatically seem to assume you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses?   Another question, just out of curiosity:  I know you would never label yourself a JW.  But are you a witness for God?  Jesus is called the Faithful witness, and also the faithful and true witness, in Revelation.  In Hebrews, we're told of the long line of or a great cloud of witnesses, after mentioning all the faithful ones of old.  The Israelites were witnesses of Jehovah. Isaiah 43:10,12 (American Standard Version) Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. . . .I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange [god] among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. Since we are to be a follower of Jesus and follow his example, should we not be faithful witnesses as well?  Who was he a witness of? david

David,

Every denomination has some truth. You won't catch anything unless you have something on the hook.

I found the JWs to have a lot of truth until it comes down to for instance the Holy Spirit.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The Holy Spirit is not a third seperate person TRUE but as you can see by the above scripture the Holy Spirit is GOD.

You have a lot more in common than the Trinity. Why else would you still be here? Isn't it against the Jws for a member to be associating with non JWs? That was my understanding when I studied with them for awhile. I think I can speak for everyone when I say we like you because you are sincere and seem to want the truth and have like us some truth. We can learn from each other if the flesh doesn't get in the way.

I H L,

kenrch

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Feb. 04 2007,02:34)

T8, I would like to comment on much of what you just said, but we've been down this road before. What I will ask you is this: What does it mean to you that when someone rejects the trinity belief, people automatically seem to assume you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Another question, just out of curiosity: I know you would never label yourself a JW. But are you a witness for God? Jesus is called the Faithful witness, and also the faithful and true witness, in Revelation. In Hebrews, we're told of the long line of or a great cloud of witnesses, after mentioning all the faithful ones of old. The Israelites were witnesses of Jehovah. Isaiah 43:10,12 (American Standard Version) Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. . . .I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange [god] among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. Since we are to be a follower of Jesus and follow his example, should we not be faithful witnesses as well? Who was he a witness of? david

Hi david,

I mean not to offend anyone unnecessarily but I am frank about what I believe and I think the truth is more important than our reputations so I don't mind speaking the truth even if it causes offence.

Now to your following question:

What does it mean to you that when someone rejects the trinity belief, people automatically seem to assume you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

It means that the JWs standout among many groups/cults/denominations that reject the Trinity. Most probably because they have a door to door policy of spreading their gospel. The Mormons, Christadelphians and many other groups also reject the Trinity doctrine and rightly so.

The other divisions/denominations/cults (besides JWs) usually rely other perhaps less visible ways to get their message across and so most think JWs as they have probably had at least one encounter with them at some stage.

And

Yes I would hope that I am a witness for YHWH and his son. But that doesn't make me a JW. Same goes for being a latter day saint which doesn't make me a Mormon, or a child of God which shouldn't mean that I belong to the cult called “The Children of God”. In addition to that I would think of myself as a catholic or one belonging to the universal church (the body) but not a Roman Catholic and one who belongs to the church of Christ but not the denomination called the Church of Christ. I also assemble with those who belong to God, but I am not a member of the Assemblies of God and I have been baptised, but I am not a Baptist.

BTW I should follow Jesus who leads me to God. I should not go to God without him or any other way lest I be found as a robber. It is Jesus Christ the messiah who brings us to God. Surely this was the reason people called the believers Christians, because they followed Christ. They weren't called Godians or Jehovah Witnesses. They followed Christ because they knew he was the messiah and he was the way. The way to eternal life with YHWH our creator.

John 10:1-2
1 “I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
2 The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep.

[david]

Quote

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. The Holy Spirit is not a third seperate person TRUE but as you can see by the above scripture the Holy Spirit is GOD.

Hi Kenrch. It in no way says that. The above scripture certainly doesn't say: “the Holy Spirit is GOD” or anything to that effect.

Quote

You have a lot more in common than the Trinity. Why else would you still be here? Isn't it against the Jws for a member to be associating with non JWs? That was my understanding when I studied with them for awhile. I think I can speak for everyone when I say we like you because you are sincere and seem to want the truth and have like us some truth. We can learn from each other if the flesh doesn't get in the way.

The Bible says that “bad association spoils useful habits.” It is true that beliefs and attitudes of the world do rub off on a person when they spend a lot of time with other people. I consider what I am doing, speaking about the Bible, to be a command from Christ. (mat 28:19,20) It is true that we do not get involved intimately with people who disrespect Jehovah or his annointed one. We do not become friends with the world or people who seem to be of the world. But we do speak to everyone, everywhere about the good news that we have heard. Unfortunately, a lot of what happens on here isn't sharing of good news, as much as it is arguing over belief. We are urged to reach people in just about every way, on the street, from door to door, over the telephone, on buses, wherever there are people. On the internet, there is of course more need for concern, because we don't really know who we are talking to. The best way to speak with someone is face to face. To really get to know them, or what they believe it's better in person. Often, a person's meaning is lost over the internet. And because we are trying to reach everyone everywhere, in all the nations, we are quite organized in our approach, and prefer to knock on every door, for the people that live in places that have doors. I largely consider what I'm doing on here to be an exercise in reasoning, or patience, or a host of other things.

Thankyou for the compliment.

david

[david]

Quote

What does it mean to you that when someone rejects the trinity belief, people automatically seem to assume you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses? It means that the JWs standout among many groups/cults/denominations that reject the Trinity. Most probably because they have a door to door policy of spreading their gospel. The Mormons, Christadelphians and many other groups also reject the Trinity doctrine and rightly so.

HI T8. So there are “many other groups” who also reject the trinity doctrine, but because we actually follow the command of Christ to speak with people everywhere, we are far more noticable?
First, I don't think there are “many other groups.”

Book of Mormon:
“Christ the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God” (Alma 11:44)

While they certainly don't believe in them being co-equal, etc, or following the Catholic trinity, “the Mormon faith is nominally Trinitarian in its belief about God.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_beli.htm

I believe I once asked people how many religions there are that don't believe in the trinity. I was given a list of about 6 or 7. 2 or 3 of those on that list weren't actually religions, but philosophies or such. There aren't “many” religions that dis-believe the trinity.

Quote

The other divisions/denominations/cults (besides JWs) usually rely other perhaps less visible ways to get their message across and so most think JWs as they have probably had at least one encounter with them at some stage.

I can't help but wonder what these “less visible ways” are, and why they wouldn't let their light shine. If most people have had at least one encounter with JW's, and apparently a memorable one, you'd think the other groups should copy our more visible ways.

Quote

BTW I should follow Jesus who leads me to God.

And we should follow Jesus example, should we not? Who was Jesus a witness for? He is called the faithful witness and also called the faithful and true witness. You should indeed follow Jesus. I agree.

david

[Anonymous]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I would like to give you what I have learned in regard to Christ and who He is and why. I understand why the questions can come up. And I understand that it can be confusing. But the secret is actually quite simple. Hence Christ said, “I thank you that you have hidden your wisdom from the wise and have revealed it to the simple.” “Also, to suffer the little children to come unto me for such is the kingdom of heaven.” (The secrets of the kingdom is theirs to thats why you have to come as a child)

The secret of God and of Christ and of the Holy Spirit is LOVE. That is the essence of God in every facet. ( And there are many facets)

A Preacher brought up this point that the angels who circle the throne have been doing so from eternity on. He then asked a question. How is it that they don't get tired of doing the same thing over and over repeating themselves for eternity. The answer being that every time they circle the throne, as they view the LORD ALMIGHTY they see a new aspect of Him and His glory that they have never seen before and they fall in love with Him over and over again. They can't help themselves. Every new revelation of Him drives them to cry out with fresh adoration” HOLY HOLY HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!! THE ONE WHO WAS, AND IS, AND IS TO COME!!!” May we gain new revelation of Him to the point our every waking moment is spent crying out to Him in a heart full of fresh love and awesome reverent worship the same words the angels cry out.

To understand God we must understand His essence, that not only does he love, He is love!! It is his being. His only mindset. And if we look at the charecteristics of Love, and the best place I know to look would be in 1Cor. 13, we will find the true charecteristics of God. In fact, and I'm sure you have done this but on the chance that this ministers to someone that has not yet received this revelation, go through the “love” chapter and replace the word love with God. This revelation itself can set you free to abandon yourself to his wonderful grace.

The character of love I want to dwell on at this moment is that love is not self seeking. God doesn't have a jealous bone in His body, if you will pardon the pun. He is not jealous of the other Gods, what do they have for Him to be jealous of? He is not jealous of us but for us. He views us as His chosen treasure and knows that His way is best for us that is why he is so zealous to keep us in Him. For our sake, not His.

In fact, once in a time of fellowship, He spoke to my spirit and said, You know, if the devil could take better care of you then I could I would gladly give you to him without bitterness. The vital word being IF!! The fact is that He knows His ways are for our greatest good. But I digress.

The reason God exists, the reason Christ exists and the reason the Spirit exists is ….For US. No I am not trying to blaspheme or try to make myself more important then the Almighty. I am trying to convey to you His motivation for everything was built around His love for us. It is why He created the heavens and the earth. It is why He created the angels. It is even why He lives. Because of and for His love for us. If not for love He is NOT!!

Again, to understand us you have to go to the fact that He knew us and loved us before the creation of anything, and before that. The reason the Christ was begat out of the father was for us. To be the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. And the Spirit of Truth came forth to be our counselor.

Love is the motivation of His being, and for His being, and is His being. So truely this argument is not His. He has no conflict as to who is greater or lesser that would be selfishness or self seeking and that is not the nature of love. Would you not suppose that Jesus who came to earth as fully man, and as man could only do what he had learned from his Father or seen his Father doing had to have seen his Father washing His feet?

If Jesus is the perfect representation of the Father that would make the Father a servant also bound by love? Luke 12:35-37 ‘Be dressed for action and have your lamps lit; be like those who are waiting for their master to return from the wedding banquet, so that they may open the door for him as soon as he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master finds alert when he comes; truly I tell you, he will fasten his belt and have them sit down to eat, and he will come and serve them.

Again I am not trying to sound heretical. I am trying to make you understand how great is our Fathers love. It is not a selfish love. Nor is it a love with the limitations of our former sinful nature. By the way, our call to love is made clear in how we are to love as our father loves in Matt. 5:38-48 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies and to go above and beyond the natural limitations of an eye for an eye mentality and to be perfect(in love) as our heavenly Father is perfect(in love). And yes perfection in love=perfection.

My point is this. The Son honors the Father and The Father honors the Son. It simply is not an issue to them any more then it should be an issue to us as to which of us is greater in the kingdom. “But if you want to be greatest in the kingdom you will be a servant of all.” Thats Kingdom politics:;):

And to the JW you must think in terms of spirit not physical. Even as we are many yet we are one body of Christ. Even so the Father, Son and Spirit are one. In fact that is exactly what Jesus prayed when He prayed for us. Let them be one even as You and I are one. I in them and You in me and we're all one big melting pot of LOVE.(Yes I added that part, consider it my amplified version) In fact when we are in the true unity that the Father has planned for us, you won't be able to tell where I end and you begin and you end and Christ begins and He ends and the Father begins and so on and so forth. One big melting pot of LOVE.:D

With all my Love for God and His Family

David Dey

[Author]

Posts