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Quote Hi Oxy,
Because I read the bible.
Only ONE TRUE God in there.
You should follow Jesus and worship Him.NH
I agree. There is only One True God!
I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,06:31) Quote WJ –
It is amazing the extant some will go to to resist the truth of God!M42
Well with your interpreting rules then everytime the word “Theos is applied to the Father then I suppose we should be like doubting Thomas and say maybe the Father isnt God!
You go out of your way to disprove the clear interpretation of the scriptures.
Look again.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
To be sure that Thomas was not worshipping and calling the Father God in him.
Look at the words ***said unto him***, My Lord and My God.
To be sure that Jesus was accepting his praise and acknowledgment of him being God.
Look at the words because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Beliieve the scriptures!
What did Thoimas demand to see?
You take this scripture out of context and refuse to see it as being about Thomas' doubt of the resurection.Quote What did Thoimas demand to see?
You take this scripture out of context and refuse to see it as being about Thomas' doubt of the resurection.So what if its about Jesus resurection, this validates the point even more.
For Jesus made the claim to the desciples that he would raise himself from the dead.
Only God could do that. So he responds to Jesus and calls him Lord and God.
I know this is a hard one for the Arian followers to accept.
Jesus also didnt rebuke him for making such a blasphemous statement, but instead blesses him for seeing who he is.Is 1:18 had a solid response to your exegisis.
Ill post it again.
Quote John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “The Greek reads,
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou
Which literally translated to English reads:-
“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”
This was not an exclamation but an address, as the nominative was used for the vocative (“Thomas said to Him” ). Let's assume you are correct. You would think that if Thomas, in his astonishment, had uttered a highly-blasphemous statement he would have been severely chastened by Yahshua. It wasn't His style to hold back, and on occasions he was cuttingly-blunt with his beloved apostles. So what was Yahshua's response to this supposed ejaculation of profanity?
“Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).
Did He just let it slide? Unlikely. Very unlikely.
It seems that Thomas was utterly persuaded of His deity and did not hesitate to address the risen Yahshua as “Lord and God”. And it’s little wonder that Thomas spoke this way as Yahshua had earlier claimed that he would raise Himself from the dead:
John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”A claim that was remember and repeated by others:
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,And (crucially) He followed through on this claim.
Yoo know, you would think that in all the places Jesus was worshipped that in at least one place we would find him encouraging men to worship the Father. Not so.Even when the Pharisees tried to get Jesus to rebuke the desciples for praising him Jesus said….
Lk 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.WJ, I have tried to keep an open mind about you, but these posts you made about Thomas are so corrupt and dishonest I am baffled that anyone claiming Christianity could write such dribble.
You have refused to consider the context of your proof texts, but rather pull them out of context to prove your doctrine. This is very very dishonest!
You have refused to consider the way in which the Hebrew writers of scripture looked at names or how they viewed and responded to the manner in which God revealed Himself to them. Again, complete dishonesty with scripture.
You interpret what Thomas said as proof that Jesus is God and yet give no answer to statements by Jesus, YHWH and Moses who called other people and things God. This is not letting scripture interpret scripture and is dishonest again.
Read the context —
(I make coment on most verses)John 20 (King James Version)
1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
RESURECTION
2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
RESURECTION
3Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
RESURECTION
4So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
RESURECTION
5And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
RESURECTION
6Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
RESURECTION
7And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
RESURECTION
8Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
RESURECTION
9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
RESURECTION
10Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
RESURECTION
11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
RESURECTION
12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
RESURECTION
13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.
RESURECTION
14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
RESURECTION
15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
RESURECTION
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
MARY CALLED HIM MASTER, NOT GOD
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.THE RESURECTED CHRIST IS FROM THE SAME FATHER AS US! ARE WE THEN GODS? THE RESURECTED CHRIST HAS A GOD! THE SAME GOD AS US! DOES A GOD HAVE A GOD?
18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
RESURECTION
19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
RESURECTION
20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
RESURECTION
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
RESURECTION
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
WHY DID JESUS BREATH ON THEM? COULD IT BE BECAUSE “GHOST” AND “SPIRIT” SHOULD BE INTERPRETED AS BREATH OR WIND? IMAGINE THAT!!!!
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
HUNANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO FORGIVE SIN?
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
RESURECTION
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.HERE WE SEE WHAT THOMAS DEMANDED TO SEE.
NOT PROOF OF GOD BUT PROOF OF RESURECTION26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
RESURECTION
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
RESURECTION
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
RESURECTION
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
RESURECTION
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
THOMAS DOUBTS THE RESURECTION
THOMAS DEMANDS TO SEE JESUS’ WOUNDS AS PROOF IT IS CHRIST.
JESUS APEARS AND PROVES IT IS HE, THE RESURECTED CHRIST BY SHOWING HIS WOUNDS.
THOMAS MAKES AN EXCLAMATION – “MY LORD AND MY GOD” (in the Greek this statement is punctuated with an exclamation mark)
JESUS THEN ASKS THOMAS IF HE NOW BELIEVES.This entire context is to show the resurection of Christ. As proof of this I give you the finale 2 verses of the chapter.
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
IT CANNOT BE CLEARER — WHAT WERE THE PURPOSES OF JESUS SHOWING MANY SIGNS? WHY WERE THESE WRITTEN DOWN?
THIS IS NOT WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD! THIS IS WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST , THE SON OF GOD.
JESUS IS THE CHRIST – The anointed one denoting His humanity. the Messiah!
SON OF GOD – the same as we are sons of God as shown in verse 17.JESUS DID SIGNS TO PROVE HE WAS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD.
THESE SIGNS WERE RECORDED THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE HE IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD.NOTHING IN THIS CONTEXT IS RECORDED TO PROVE HE IS GOD, BUT TO PROVE HE IS THE CHRIST AND THE SON OF GOD!
And now to your specific words of your post ——
You state —
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Response —
What did Thomas have problems believing? The resurection.
What did Thomas demand before he would believe the resurection? Jesus, as identified by the wounds in his hands, feet, and side.
What did Jesus show him? The wounds in his hands, feet, and side. By doing so, Jesus fullfilled what Thomas required to believe He was resurected.
what did this prove to Thomas? The resurection.You state —
To be sure that Thomas was not worshipping and calling the Father God
in him.Response —
Adding to scripture again? Where does it say Thomas worshipped?You state —
Look at the words ***said unto him***, My Lord and My God.
To be sure that Jesus was accepting his praise and acknowledgment of him being God.Response —
If you continue to use this statement by Thomas as proof that Jesus is God then please explain to me how you interpret —
John 10:34 (Jesus speaking to the pharasees)
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?Therefore the pharasees Jesus spoke to are Gods?
How about if YHWH calls someone God?
Psalm 82:6 (YHWH speaking to Israel)
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.Therefore the entire nation of Israel are Gods?
You state —
Look at the words because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Response —
Again what was it Thomas demanded to see and what was it Jesus showed him?
Thomas demanded to see the wounds and Jesus showed the wounds to him.Does the resurection or the wounds of Christ prove that He is God? If so, are we required to be Gods to be resurected?
Quote “The Jews answered by our law He ought to die, because He made himself the Son of God.”. Would they have grounds to execute Him if the charge was claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH? Hardly. In Jewish thinking (in that era) “calling God his own Father” equated to Him “making himself the equal of God.” (John 5:18). Hi Is 1:18.
I've been meaning to ask about this. I think I did ask it in another thread, but can't find it. “he made himself the son of God,” they charged.
These are people that hated Jesus to the point of wanting him dead. They were willing to bring false witnesses in, accuse him of false things, anthing.If Jesus was teaching that he was God, don't you think the pharisees would have jumped all over that? None of this “he made himself the SON OF God” thing. They'd have used the most outlandish strongest charge they could. And if there was even the slightest indication that he was trying to tell people he was God himself, they would have been all over that and fast.
Wouldn't they?
Hi W,
“Only God could do that.”
Sound familiar?
Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Same mistake.
Quote WJ, I have tried to keep an open mind about you, but these posts you made about Thomas are so corrupt and dishonest I am baffled that anyone claiming Christianity could write such dribble. You have no open mind M42.
Or you would believe what you read.
There is no rebuke for Thomas and his so called Blasphemy.
And it was Blasphemy to the Jews to call a man God.
So you think it is dribble, good for you.
But I will worship and praise and glorify and and magnify and exalt the Lord Jesus Christ calling him my Lord and My God.
This is the commandment of my Father. To give him that honour!
Blessings
Quote Hi W,
“Only God could do that.”
Sound familiar?
Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Same mistake.
NH
Did he forgive sins? Then he must be God!
Quote You interpret what Thomas said as proof that Jesus is God and yet give no answer to statements by Jesus, YHWH and Moses who called other people and things God. This is not letting scripture interpret scripture and is dishonest again.
Why do you give no answer to these other scriptures?Quote IT CANNOT BE CLEARER — WHAT WERE THE PURPOSES OF JESUS SHOWING MANY SIGNS? WHY WERE THESE WRITTEN DOWN?
THIS IS NOT WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD! THIS IS WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST , THE SON OF GOD.–M42
M42, I feel your frustration in these words.
Quote You interpret what Thomas said as proof that Jesus is God and yet give no answer to statements by Jesus, YHWH and Moses who called other people and things God. This is not letting scripture interpret scripture and is dishonest again. David
Because it is a waste of my time.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,22:39) Quote Hi W,
“Only God could do that.”
Sound familiar?
Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Same mistake.
NH
Did he forgive sins? Then he must be God!
Hi W,
So you once again find yourself in agreement with the enemies of Jesus?
Think about that.
God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor 5.19]Quote Hi W,
So you once again find yourself in agreement with the enemies of Jesus?
Think about that.
God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor 5.19]NH
How does it feel to be among those who would want to stone Jesus for claiming he is God?
Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.Quote Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.
NHIf one of the Prophets rose from the grave and told you so you wouldnt believe him. You have seen the evidence. Plenty of it. And if there was a book just for you that said Jesus is God, you would say you are going to hold onto your Arian belief.
BTW. Why dont you show me where the scriptures “Planly say” Jesus is not God!
Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.Quote BTW. Why dont you show me where the scriptures “Planly say” Jesus is not God! And why don't you find me a scripture that says: “Nick is not God.”
Or “Paul is not God.”
Or “WJ is not God.”
There's an infinite series of things that you can't prove, and they are ridiculous.I believe the burden of proof rests in your hands. We don't have to prove a negative.
We don't go around assuming people are God.
And neither should we simply assume that Jesus is God Almighty, especially when the normal use of language presents Jesus as being the “son of God,” over and over again.david
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,23:02) Quote Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.
NHIf one of the Prophets rose from the grave and told you so you wouldnt believe him. You have seen the evidence. Plenty of it. And if there was a book just for you that said Jesus is God, you would say you are going to hold onto your Arian belief.
BTW. Why dont you show me where the scriptures “Planly say” Jesus is not God!
Jesus is the first to fullfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Born/begotten/began of His Spirit and a human woman. (Luke 2/1-7)
Jesus came in His Father's name (John 8/43)
Jesus is a decendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the son of God (Luke 9/35)
Jesus is Lord = master in authority (John 13/13)
Jesus is the teacher (John 13/13)
Jesus is the second adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40)
Jesus was filled with the Spirit/Godhead/authority (Col 2/9)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is the word (Logos= expression, idea, statement of God) (John 1/1)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus is the source of true felowship (1 John 1:3 )
Jesus is compassionate (Mark 8:2-3 and Matt 20:34)
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh) (I Cor 15/25-28)
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth untill all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)All of these are attributable to humanity and not deity.
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