The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,06:53)

Hi Oxy,
If you are to compare God to man of body, soul and spirit, then one part has to be just earthly perishable flesh. If you are to say God does not change as scripture does then that person has always been flesh and God has always been partly of the flesh of the earth. Is this what your mean??

God foreknew us, before we were flesh. Sounds a bit like Jesus, doesn't it?

Also, I wasn't comparing God with us, but hopefully showing another aspect in which we were created in His likeness.

January 20, 2007 at 7:12 am#37820

Participant

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 20 2007,05:25)

I might speculate that in as emotional and shocking moment as Thomas was experiancing, he did more then clamly say “My Lord and My God. I can imagine his exclaiming MY LORD AND MY GOD. In the finale analisis, what was Thomas saying. “My Lord” Thomas acknoledges Jesus as his master and the one in authority. My God, Thomas cries out as the revelation sinks in of the absolutely miraculous fact that his brother and fellow human was raised from the dead by God. OH MY GOD!!!! THE RESURECTION IS TRUE!!! I DO HAVE HOPE FOR LIFE AFTER DEATH!!!!

Hmmmm…..did Thomas swear when he saw the resurrected Jesus?

January 20, 2007 at 7:18 am#37822

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

Hmmmm…..did Thomas swear when he saw the resurrected Jesus?

Hi Is 1:18

Amazing how they try to read into the scriptures!

January 20, 2007 at 7:30 am#37825

Participant

Quote

John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “

The Greek reads,

ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou

Which literally translated to English reads:-

“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”

This was not an exclamation but an address, as the nominative was used for the vocative (“Thomas said to Him” ). Let's assume you are correct. You would think that if Thomas, in his astonishment, had uttered a highly-blasphemous statement he would have been severely chastened by Yahshua. It wasn't His style to hold back, and on occasions he was cuttingly-blunt with his beloved apostles. So what was Yahshua's response to this supposed ejaculation of profanity?

“Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).

Did He just let it slide? Unlikely. Very unlikely.

It seems that Thomas was utterly persuaded of His deity and did not hesitate to address the risen Yahshua as “Lord and God”. And it’s little wonder that Thomas spoke this way as Yahshua had earlier claimed that he would raise Himself from the dead:

John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

A claim that was remember and repeated by others:

Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”

Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,

And (crucially) He followed through on this claim.

Blessings

January 20, 2007 at 7:30 am#37826

david

Participant

Context:

JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”

JOHN 20:17
“Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’””

After writing what Thomas said, notice the conclusion that we are to draw. Notice why John wrote what he did:
JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”

While Jesus can be called God, he is not God Almighty, the only true God, the Almighty one.
Thomas would not have believe that Jesus was God Almighty, because he heard Jesus words about Jesus ascending to his God and to your [Thomas'] God. Jesus had the same God that these ones had.

As well, if there is any confusion about what we are to draw from this scripture, John makes it clear the conclusion we should reach by what he wrote: that Jesus is the son “of God,” hence not God Almighty himself.

January 20, 2007 at 7:39 am#37827

Participant

David, a question:-

Is Yahshua both 'man' and the 'Son of Man'?

January 20, 2007 at 7:43 am#37828

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 20 2007,06:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,06:53)

God foreknew us, before we were flesh. Sounds a bit like Jesus, doesn't it?

Also, I wasn't comparing God with us, but hopefully showing another aspect in which we were created in His likeness.

Hi Oxy,
Was God only partial till the conception of Jesus??

January 20, 2007 at 7:52 am#37829

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,07:43)

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 20 2007,06:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,06:53)

God foreknew us, before we were flesh. Sounds a bit like Jesus, doesn't it?

Also, I wasn't comparing God with us, but hopefully showing another aspect in which we were created in His likeness.

Hi Oxy,
Was God only partial till the conception of Jesus??

lol.. you are too much Nick! What sort of a question is that?

Honestly, you do yourself no favours with such silly questions.

January 20, 2007 at 7:55 am#37830

david

Participant

“David, a question:-
Is Yahshua both 'man' and the 'Son of Man'? “–Is 1:18

That sounds like a trick question.

Normally, if someone is a man (#1) and the son of a[nother] man (#2), which I happen to be, it is obvious that the the “man” in #1 and #2 are not the same.
A person can be both a man and the son of a man, yet that person cannot be the “man” in both cases.

It is only in this highly confusing belief where words no longer mean what they do in every other instance.

God and Son of God

Both terms could be applied to the same one. Yes, Jesus could be called God and could at the same time be called son of God, but the “God” in those two instances would have to be different.

Otherwise, Jesus is the son of himself. This is absurd.

Because this is such an unusual, absurd thought, not at all what we are used to in normal life, the burden of proof rests on those who believe this “absurdity” to prove it.

January 20, 2007 at 8:11 am#37832

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

“David, a question:-
Is Yahshua both 'man' and the 'Son of Man'? “–Is 1:18

That sounds like a trick question.

It is only in this highly confusing belief where words no longer mean what they do in every other instance.

God and Son of God

Both terms could be applied to the same one. Yes, Jesus could be called God and could at the same time be called son of God, but the “God” in those two instances would have to be different.

Otherwise, Jesus is the son of himself. This is absurd.

Because this is such an unusual, absurd thought, not at all what we are used to in normal life, the burden of proof rests on those who believe this “absurdity” to prove it.

David

Fortunatly like Thomas, you have to beliieve it!

January 20, 2007 at 8:14 am#37833

Participant

Oxy,
You may find conclusions drawn from your doctrines to be amusing but they are your own doctrines.

January 20, 2007 at 8:16 am#37834

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,08:14)

Oxy,
You may find conclusions drawn from your doctrines to be amusing but they are your own doctrines.

Nick, you are confused and you breed confusion. I see nothing from you that sheds light or truth.

January 20, 2007 at 8:18 am#37836

david

Participant

Logic suggests that someone cannot be their own Father.

LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”

MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)

JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)

JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)

MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)

JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)

JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)

JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)

1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)

1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)

ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)

MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”

JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.” (He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.*****************)
MATTHEW 26:63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)

JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)

MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)

MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)

MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””

ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)

So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.

I thought of something a while back, about the accusation of the pharisees, accusing him of making himself God’s Son. Surely, they would accuse him of claiming to be God, if they could have.

I mean, they wanted him dead. They were willing to use false witnesses, and charge him with false things, anything they could.

If he had claimed to be God Almighty, wouldn't they have made this charge?

January 20, 2007 at 8:20 am#37838

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 20 2007,08:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,08:14)

Oxy,
You may find conclusions drawn from your doctrines to be amusing but they are your own doctrines.

Nick, you are confused and you breed confusion. I see nothing from you that sheds light or truth.

Hi Oxy,
Diversionary abuse tactics is not a good response.
LOOK AT YOUR DOCTRINES.
THEY ARE ERRONEOUS

January 20, 2007 at 8:40 am#37847

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,08:20)

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 20 2007,08:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,08:14)

Oxy,
You may find conclusions drawn from your doctrines to be amusing but they are your own doctrines.

Nick, you are confused and you breed confusion. I see nothing from you that sheds light or truth.

Hi Oxy,
Diversionary abuse tactics is not a good response.
LOOK AT YOUR DOCTRINES.
THEY ARE ERRONEOUS

Like I say Nick, most here seem to agree with me. You are in the minority. Wake up Nick, your castle of confusion is crumbling.

January 20, 2007 at 8:55 am#37848

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 20 2007,07:55)

“David, a question:-
Is Yahshua both 'man' and the 'Son of Man'? “–Is 1:18

That sounds like a trick question.

It is only in this highly confusing belief where words no longer mean what they do in every other instance.

God and Son of God

Both terms could be applied to the same one. Yes, Jesus could be called God and could at the same time be called son of God, but the “God” in those two instances would have to be different.

Otherwise, Jesus is the son of himself. This is absurd.

Because this is such an unusual, absurd thought, not at all what we are used to in normal life, the burden of proof rests on those who believe this “absurdity” to prove it.

Okay, so we have established that it's quite legitimate, from a biblical perspective, to be 'something' and the 'son of' that something at the same time…how curious. Maybe it's because to a 1st century Hebrew the term “Son of…” denoted “nature of”, or “of the order of”….that would explain the pharisees charge in Jn.19:7 – “The Jews answered by our law He ought to die, because He made himself the Son of God.”. Would they have grounds to execute Him if the charge was claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH? Hardly. In Jewish thinking (in that era) “calling God his own Father” equated to Him “making himself the equal of God.” (John 5:18).

BTW, if you look at the Greek in Matt 1:23, John 20:28 and Heb 1:8 you'll see that the article is used with 'theos' and applied to Yahshsua.

Time for sleep….

January 20, 2007 at 8:55 am#37849

Participant

Hi Oxy,
Your trinity is three persons in one person,
Cult Buster says God is a godhead in which three worship each other
and WJ does not say the trinity is equal
which all fly in the face of the TRADITIONAL teachings so what do you mean about agreement?

January 20, 2007 at 9:03 am#37852

Participant

Nick, you still haven't answered my question from before.

It went like this:

Do you have a body? Yes, of course you do.
Do you have a soul? Yep..
Do you have a spirit? Once again, yes.

Are you three people? I think not.

So why is it so hard to see 3 parts of a Godhead?

Father
Son
Holy Spirit.

NOT co-equal!

January 20, 2007 at 9:27 am#37853

Participant

Hi Oxy,
Because I read the bible.
Only ONE TRUE God in there.
You should follow Jesus and worship Him.

January 20, 2007 at 7:18 pm#37866