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Quote Hi,
The Son of God was sent by God and God became his human father by His Spirit. How can the “third person in God” be the father of Jesus?NH
Exactly. Because the Spirit is God!
Quote Hi W,
If the Son was sent into the world, he was a son outside of the world.NH
A son cant be a son until he is born. This is why your whole concept of God is wrong NH. The very foundation is wrong.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2007,20:34) Quote The son was begotten as the first creative work, then he incarnated as a man, as our messiah. MS
There is no scripture that says Jesus is the Begotten Son until he was born!
Hi W,
I presume you mean MONOGENES?
He was conceived of the Spirit of God in Mary.
1Jn 4
“9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. “
Hi
And now we refer to Jesus as the Word/God because he was the Word/God before he was born a man!
I Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 19 2007,20:18) Good grief, how can something so simple become so profoundly complicated? The Word of God was with God and was God. Like God, the Word of God had no beginning because the two are one.
Jesus was begotten of God by the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming His Son.
The Word of God was never the Son of God until He was conceived.
Revelation 19:13 clearly shows us that Jesus is still the Word of God.
It's really quite simple.
Couldn't agree more, very well put!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2007,20:39) Quote Hi W,
If the Son was sent into the world, he was a son outside of the world.NH
A son cant be a son until he is born. This is why your whole concept of God is wrong NH. The very foundation is wrong.
Hi ,
How odd.
Scripture speaks of other sons of God, unborn, before the creation of earth. See Jb 1,2 Gen6.
Should they be removed from the bible?
Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? “
Quote Hi W,
I presume you mean MONOGENES?
He was conceived of the Spirit of God in Mary.
1Jn 4
“9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ”
NH
One scripture that says he is the Begotten son before he was born.
Quote Hi ,
How odd.
Scripture speaks of other sons of God, unborn, before the creation of earth. See Jb 1,2 Gen6.
Should they be removed from the bible?
Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ”
NH Are you putting the Word/God in the same class as those created beings?
Hi W,
God sent the Monogenes Son that through him we should have eternal life[Jn 3]. And the Owner of the vineyard sent his Son into the vineyard to collect his dues.Matt 21
” 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”
Mk 12
“6”He had one more to send, a beloved son; he sent him last of all to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'7″But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!'
8″They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. “
Lk 20
” 13″The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will (B)respect him.'14″But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, 'This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.'
15″So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? “
Quote Hi W,
God sent the Monogenes Son that through him we should have eternal life[Jn 3]. And the Owner of the vineyard sent his Son into the vineyard to collect his dues.Matt 21
” 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”
Mk 12
“6”He had one more to send, a beloved son; he sent him last of all to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'7″But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!'
8″They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. “
Lk 20
” 13″The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will (B)respect him.'14″But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, 'This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.'
15″So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? ”
NH
He wasnt a Son until he was born.
Quote What was he before? He was In the Form of God as Phil 2 says. The Word that was with God and the Word that was God!
To really get you going he was YHWY!
Hui W,
So emptying himself did not really happen but as the wordsmiths would twist it he put aside his powers for awhile?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2007,20:22) Hi Oxy,
1jn 4
” 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
Jn 3
” 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Agreed, God sent His Son into the world. But at what point was He sent into the world? Was He sent into the world before He was conceived? Yes, in the Old Testament He was, but He wasn't called the Son then, He was called the Word of God, eg Gen 15:1 After these things the Word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram, I am your shield and your exceeding great reward.The Word was conceived, thereby becoming the Son, and was sent into the world.
Quote Agreed, God sent His Son into the world. But at what point was He sent into the world? Was He sent into the world before He was conceived? Yes, in the Old Testament He was, but He wasn't called the Son then, He was called the Word of God, eg Gen 15:1 After these things the Word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram, I am your shield and your exceeding great reward. The Word was conceived, thereby becoming the Son, and was sent into the world.
Oxy
Actually a very Good exegesis!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2007,18:32) Hello The extent that men will go to resist the truth plainly taught in scripture is mind boggling.
No wonder Jesus did all that he did right before their eyes and they still did not believe.
If Jesus was standing right in front of them and saying… “look at the example of my servant who doubted me' They would say… “but Lord you are only supposed to worship the Father”
Jn 20:
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and **said unto him**, My Lord and my God.
And Jesus response to him was not “worship the Father Thomas”. But his response was…29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
To be sure that Thomas was not worshipping and calling the Father God in him.
Look at the words ***said unto him***, My Lord and My God.
To be sure that Jesus was accepting his praise and acknowledgment of him being God.
Look at the words because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Based on this, Jesus is saying “Blessed are those who believe I am God and have not seen”
Father,Son and Holy Spirit. These three are one God.
WJ –
It is amazing the extant some will go to to resist the truth of God!According to your style of interpreting scripture, the fact that Thomas said My lord and My God proves that Jesus is God.
First the word “Lord” does not indicate God. It is not a proper name for God, but means master or one in authority. Much like the Lord of a feudal castle was called Lord and like Sarah called Abraham Lord.
If your logic holds true about Jesus being God because he was called so by Thomas , then how much more credence should you give Jesus calling someone God.
John 10:34 (Jesus speaking to the pharasees)
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?Therefore the pharasees Jesus spoke to are Gods?
How about if YHWH calls someone God?
Psalm 82:6 (YHWH speaking to Israel)
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.Therefore the entire nation of Israel are Gods?
How about when the burning bush calls itself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Exodus 3
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
( What did moses see? A burning bush.)4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(Who spoke out of what? God spoke out of the bush.)5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
( Who did the God in the bush say he was? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What did Moses see? A burning bush. Why was Moses afraid to look at a burning bush? He was afraid to look at God.)
——– As you said WJ ——- IT IS AMAZING THAT WHEN SOME READ THAT THOMAS CALLS JESUS GOD IT IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS IS GOD — AND YET — WHEN JESUS CALLS SOMEONE GOD, YHWH CALLS SOMEONE GOD AND MOSES “CALLS” SOMETHING GOD IT CAN’T POSSIBLY BE PROOF THAT THESE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE OR THINGS ARE GOD.
THIS IS CLEAR PROOF OF THE SITUATIONAL ETHICS OF INTERPRETATION USED BY TRINITARIANS. THEY INTERPRET A THING DOFERENTLY IN DIFERENT PLACES BASED NOT ON SCRIPTURE BUT ON THEIR DOCTRINE. THEY TAKE ONE WORD OR CONTEXT AND WHEN IT SUPPORTS THEIR DOCTRINE THEY SAY IT MEANS ONE THING. WHEN IT DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR DOCTRINE THEY SAY IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE.As I have said many times before, Hebrews think and percieve the world differently then we of a western culture.
In the first scripture Jesus quotes Psalm 82 wherein YHWH calls the nation of Israel Gods.
Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
The Hebrew word for “gods” in this passage is Elohyim. (side note – If Elohyim depicts a triune godhead and these people are also Elohyim, has the Godhead just grown to include the millions of Israel?) Does this statement by YHWH make the nation of Israel all Gods? Of course not! The context is about how the nation of Israel was treating their fellow man. They needed to be like God in character toward their fellow men. This was precisely the point Jesus made to the pharasees.
Perhaps a better understanding of how hebrews viewed names is needed.The Hebrew word for name is “shem”
When we see a name such as “King David” we see the word “King” as a title and “David” as a name. In our western mind a title describes a character trait while a name is simply an identifier. In the Hebrew language there is no such distinction between names and titles. Both words, King and David, are descriptions of character traits, King is “one who reigns” while David is “one who is loved”. It is also common to identify the word “Elohiym” (God) as a title and YHWH (Yahweh, the LORD, Jehovah) as a name. What we do not realize is that both of these are character traits, YHWH meaning “the one who exists” and Elohiym is “one who has power and authority”. The Hebrew word “shem” more literally means “character”. When the Bible speaks of taking God's name to the nations, he is not talking about the name itself but his character. When the command to not take God's name in vain literally means not to represent his character in a false manner. It is similar to our expression of “having a good name” which is not about the name itself but the character of the one with that name.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_name.html
With this understanding in hand an honest person can realize that in Psalm 82 and in John 10, calling others Gods is refering to character traits that should be present in the people of God. This is true in both Old and New Testament cultures and is a common understanding among the Hebrews of both periods.
With these facts in mind let us examine Thomas’ calling Jesus God.
This is not definitive ironclad proof that Jesus is God. I sight the following possible reasons for Thomas’ statement.
1. The context of the story is Thomas doubting the physical resurection of Jesus. This context is abo
ut the humanity and mortality of Jesus. This context is about the human Jesus being rased from the dead by theos (God) When Jesus apears to Thomas, He emphasizes that Thomas look and touch as proof that He was physically raised from the dead. This was not to prove he was God but to prove He was resurected.WJ says “Based on this, Jesus is saying “Blessed are those who believe I am God and have not seen”
HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF TRINITARIANS TAKING SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT AND MISQUOTING SCRIPTURE. THE CONTEXT IS ABOUT BELIEVING IN THE RESURECTION OF CHRIST NOT ABOUT JESUS BEING GOD! — UNLESS WJ IS SAYING THAT JESUS MUST BE GOD TO BE RESURECTED FROM THE DEAD, IN WHICH CASE WE ARE ALL DOOMED.Verses 1 though 25 are about Jesus’ resurection. When the resurection is reported to Thomas his response is as follows–
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
(as a side note, some see the capitalization of lord in these verses and assume it means the proper name of God. It is also Kurios= master or one in authority.)After Jesus tells Thomas to thrust his hand in the side of Jesus, Thomas makes his statement. Was it important that Thomas see the holes in Jesus’ hands, feet and side to prove that He was God? No! It was important so that Thomas would see and believe that Jesus was physically raised from the dead. Does the resurection of Christ prove that He is God? Is it necessary to be a God to be resurected?
Then Jesus says —
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.This verse is still about the resurection. SIMPLE QUESTION, READING THE CONTEXT, WHAT DID THOMAS SEE? Jesus was showing Thomas the holes in His hands, feet and side. Why would Jesus use these things to prove that He is God? Obviously he was not trying to prove He was God. He was proving His resurection and that is what Thomas saw and also what Jesus commented on. “Thomas, because thou hast literally seen my resurection, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not literally seen my resurection, and yet have believed. This is not as some would like us to believe an admonition by Jesus for Thomas believing Jesus is God but an acknoledgement that Thomas saw Jesus’ physical resurection.
I would imagine that Thomas was very shocked to hear Jesus repeat his own words back to him in confrontation. Thomas was having a Moses experiance. Confronted by a supernatural revealing of God in the natural physical realm. Even as Moses saw a physical revealing of God in the burning bush and percieved the presence of God in that bush, Thomas saw a physical revealing of God in the man Jesus Christ and percieved the presence of God in that man. How many verses does Jesus speak of the Father being in Him?
I might speculate that in as emotional and shocking moment as Thomas was experiancing, he did more then clamly say “My Lord and My God. I can imagine his exclaiming MY LORD AND MY GOD. In the finale analisis, what was Thomas saying. “My Lord” Thomas acknoledges Jesus as his master and the one in authority. My God, Thomas cries out as the revelation sinks in of the absolutely miraculous fact that his brother and fellow human was raised from the dead by God. OH MY GOD!!!! THE RESURECTION IS TRUE!!! I DO HAVE HOPE FOR LIFE AFTER DEATH!!!!Thomas had a triple revelation when he saw Christ.
1. He saw Jesus as his Lord and master. He saw YHWH’s authority that was given to Jesus and so often spoke of by Jesus himself. He saw Him as the King of all earthly Kings. The rightfull heir to the thrown of David.
2. He saw the unbridled revealing of YHWH in the man Jesus Christ. He saw the revelation of Jesus coming in His Father’s name/character. Remember you can have the character traits of God without being God. The name Jesus is Yah-oshea. This means God the saviour. Now before anyone goes off “Greeking” this — remember what I hae already posted. This is a character trait and not an identifier. This does not identify Jesus as God, but rather identifies the overall character trait revealed by Jesus; God’s mercy and saving grace. His charactr trait was to save His brethren and fellow humans. For this He gave His life.
3.He had a direct, potent, astounding and shocking revelation of the resurection from the dead. The greatest hope and promise ever given to man is the hope of eternal life and resurection from the dead. Thomas just had this promise of God confirned right in front of his eyes. The confirmation was profound because Thomas knew Jesus was human. If a God was raised – no biggie. That would do nothing to effect Thomas’ hope for resurection or eternal life. However to see a human being, that you had lived with for 3 and 1/2 years, crucified and killed, standing before you alive in his resurected mortal physical body, would be an Earth shattering profound experiance of a totally diferent nature.Quote WJ –
It is amazing the extant some will go to to resist the truth of God!M42
Well with your interpreting rules then everytime the word “Theos is applied to the Father then I suppose we should be like doubting Thomas and say maybe the Father isnt God!
You go out of your way to disprove the clear interpretation of the scriptures.
Look again.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
To be sure that Thomas was not worshipping and calling the Father God in him.
Look at the words ***said unto him***, My Lord and My God.
To be sure that Jesus was accepting his praise and acknowledgment of him being God.
Look at the words because thou hast **seen me**, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Beliieve the scriptures!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,00:06) whew.
Oxy your God is a person with three persons in Him and now this !
Nick, you are dogmatic to the point of being boring lol.Tell me Nick, are you 3 parts?
Do you have a spirit?
Do you have a soul?
Do you have a body?Are you three people or one person?
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