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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 17 2004,15:51) Now if we look at the history of Israel and the Church, you will find that the Church has fallen in the same ways that Israel did, so it just goes to show you how many really learn from history. …
Friends,God knows which Trinitarians will eventually repent of their idolatry and accept the truth.
You see some Israelites did what they thought was right 'in their own eyes', and God still punished them for refusing to listen after he lead them out of Egypt.
God's patience is meant to lead people to repentance. What happened to Israel should be heeded.
We are told in scripture to 'worship God in the way that he finds acceptable'.
There are two kinds of christians. #1 Judeo Christians and #2 Pagan Christians. And almost no one knows the difference.
Quote (Ambassador of Christ @ May 18 2002,02:05) 1) Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
—According to verse 8, this is talking about the Son of God, not the Father. This verse tells us that Jesus Christ was not only pre-existent to his humanity on earth, but that He existed in the beginning even before creation and that by His hands He created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This verse tells us that the only thing in existence in the beginning was God, and that God created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1 we find that God was the only one in the beginning that that He created the heavens and the earth. According to Hebrews 1:10 we find that Jesus Christ was in the beginning and created the heavens and the earth. If Jesus Christ is not God, then these two verses contradict each other. The only way Hebrews 1:10 is true is if Jesus Christ is in fact God.2)
Remember that Jesus is the son of God. God is preeminent. Jesus is the beginning and the ending.The word “In” in the phrase “In the beginning …” means “inside”, “within”. “In the beginning” is not an historical phrase. All things are “in” Christ — “within” Christ. Christ is “all in all” save for the Father.
Christ is the Light of the world (kosmos).
Very important: Isa.45:7 — I form (yatsar: squeezing into shape) the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God formed the Light of the world.
Jesus is not the first and last of created things- But is the first and the last Of what is created. It means that He is the ruler over them. Which was something Jesus Did not allways have. The disciples talk about Jesus being made Both Christ and lord. You cannot be given a title you allreay have! Unless you wanted to be an idiot, and GoD does not appoint people for no purpose. GoD said to Jesus, today you are my son, wait untill I make your enemies a footsool under your feet. He was the firstborn of the dead. As in, there were others living in death, Just none who had obtained true life.
http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….7;st=70
I suggest you read, 'Who is Jesus' forum to continue this idea.
After reading some of the first pages of this article as well as some of the last I must say that the Trinity, which I've been questioning myself, is without a doubt a false teaching.
I would also like to add unto your findings some of my own. I've read many things supporting both believes and teachings, but come to find that there is simply not enough to proof to back the Trinity Doctrine.
Even the Name of Messiah 'Yahushua' points to The Father Yahweh, as it means; Yahweh is Salvation and is pronounced with even the emphesis on the first syllable and an almost silent middle 'u' , YAHushua. Consider YAHushua's own words in the gospel of John;
John. 14:28, “…for my Father is greater than I.”
John.10:29, “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all…”
John. 13:16, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, They servant [YAHushua] is not greater than his Master [YAHWEH]; neither he that is sent [YAHushua] is greater than He that sent him [YAHWEH].”
These verses teach us YAHushua's own view of his relationship to his Father. Notice he didn't claim to be the Father but instead, made a clear distinction between the two.Who does Scripture say is the Elohim of Israel? Let's read what the prophet Isaiah had to say about this question;
Is. 45:3 says, “And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I… YAHWEH, which call thee by thy name, …am the Elohim of Israel.”
YAHWEH is the Elohim of Israel. Since we already learned that YAHushua is not Father YAHWEH, YAHushua cannot be the Elohim of Israel, but he can be the Emissary and also the appointed King of Israel. This is confirmed in Acts;
Acts 3:13, “The Elohim of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, has glorified his Son YAHushua;…”
The Elohim of Jacob (Jacob being Israel) glorified [or elevated] His Son. Since the Scriptures reveal the Elohim of Israel and the Father are both called YAHWEH, some will go so far as to teach that there are two separate beings called YAHWEH in order to support their erroneous belief that YAHushua pre-existed as Father YAHWEH, the Elohim of Israel. They use Genesis as proof of this;
To this I want to add that there are also false doctines teaching that there was not a son but that the father cried out to himself on the cross.
Jeremiah.23:6 is often used to prove YAHushua is YAHWEH.
Jer. 23:6 “In his [YAHushua's] days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his [YAHushua's] name whereby he [YAHushua] shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
If this verse teaches that YAHushua is YAHWEH because he is called “YAHWEH Our Righteousness, then Jer.33:16 teaches that Jerusalem is also YAHWEH. For it reads,
Jer 33:16 “In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
John.12:37,38, “But though he [YAHushua] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him [YAHushua]: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he [Isaiah] spake, Master, 'who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the YAHWEH been revealed?'
(The underlined is a quote from Is.53:1. The “arm of YAHWEH” is Isaiah's reference to the Messiah). The passage continues with verses 39-41;
John 12:39-41 “Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 'He [YAHWEH] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I [YAHWEH] should heal them.' These things said Esaias, when he [Isaiah] saw his [YAHWEH's] glory, and spake of him [YAHWEH].”
Verse 40 (underlined) is a quote from Is.6:10. John is quoting a second passage from Isaiah to show why they could not believe on YAHushua; because YAHWEH blinded them. Verse 41 therefore, is referring to Is.6:10, not Is.53:1. In Is.6:1-3 YAHWEH is seen in all His glory. That is the glory referred to in verse 41. It was not YAHushua's glory.
Since John the Baptist preceeded YAHushua, Is.40:3 and Mt.3:3 are often used to prove YAHWEH is YAHushua.
Is.40:3 reads, “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH, make straight in the desert a highway for our Elohim.”
Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah, Lu.3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Is.40:4 & 5. It says, “As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of YAHWEH.”
“Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH” does not mean, “Move out of the way because YAHWEH is coming.” And so when YAHushua comes they believe he is YAHWEH.
How was “the way” to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work?
John.4:34 says, “YAHushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish His work.”
Almighty YAHWEH appointed His Son YAHushua to finish His work. YAHushua was YAHWEH'S instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. YAHushua is the “Messenger of the Covenant,” “the servant of YAHWEH,” and “the salvation of YAHWEH.” John.14:6 calls YAHushua “the way.” He is “the way of YAHWEH;” the means through which YAHWEH will finish His work.
Gen.1:26 is often used to show YAHushua's hand in Creation. It reads, “And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” They say the Father is talking to the Son in this verse based on the pronouns used. Notice, however, that verse 27 says, “So Elohim created man in His own image, . . .” Why isn't the phrase “in their own image” used? Again, in Gen.11:7,8, “us” is used and yet YAHWEH alone scattered them abroad. According to Job 38:4-7, “the sons of Elohim shouted for joy” when YAHWEH created the earth. This doubtless refers to other spiritual beings who were also present at the creation of man. YAHWEH could be speaking to them, in Gen.1:26, using the plural of majesty. An example of this is found in Ezr. 4:18; “The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.” In this case, a letter was written strictly to King Artaxerxes and no one else (vs. 11). Yet the King speaks as though it was written to others as well. Another example would be the Queen of England saying, “We, the Queen of England, . . .” It can also be understood in the sense of someone saying, “Let us drive to the lake for a picnic,” and yet, only the speaker does the driving. To believe YAHWEH is talking to YAHushua is an assumption. It is reading into the text something that it does not necessarily say.
If we do not try to force the Scriptures to conform to our own doctrines, they are so simple to understand. Instead men try to support “Holy Trinities”, “Incarnations”, “Transubstantiations”, and the like. The Bible does not use terms like “Father” and “Son” to try and trick us. They are used to express a relationship that we can relate to. If YAHushua is Father YAHWEH, the Scriptures would state it in plain language. Instead, it says that YAHushua is the Son of Father YAHWEH.
Most of the information listed I've taken from article alone which I've found very helpful in my findings. I will end the post here. The lin
k to the article is: http://www.kivits.com/yahushua.htmlAlso I'd like to add that most who do believe in the Trinity Doctrine choose to not accept anything else possible and even if proven wrong, I'd doubt a change would occur for their hearts have been hardened.
YWHW Bless!!!
Hey David, Thankyou For posting, Maybe U should become a member?? Your post was very good. ^_^ I likies.
Some of this is also discussed in other forums like, 'who is Jesus' Which youve given another point of view to some conclusions that I also came too ^_^. Like the GoD is the Creator.
l8rz ^_^
There is a Member called David. I think that it is probably the same person. You only need to log in before you post, or log in when you post for it to be tracked with your membership.
If you log in, you have all the features available to you.
I just wanted to say thanks to David for the possitive input, in regards to trinitarism. In studying the bible there are two things to remember; if the bible contradicts its self than there is either something you dont understand clearly or its a corruption of text. History proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that trinitarism was a addition to the bible and the bible its self also reviels that it is a contradiction. IF christians who believe tampering with scripture is a sin continue to speak out against these pagan corruptions than in time the truth will be restored.
I want to write down this simple verse and let someone try and justify it or talk about it. Now, remember, this is from PAUL, the man who saw CHRIST himself and was converted by JESUS himself.
Romans 9:5 – ” Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, WHO IS GOD OVER ALL, forever praised! Amen ” (caps are mine)
So, this shows that the Christ is God! The Israelites knew that the only person that could possibly save them from their sins was God himself! How, then, could Jesus not be God? Someone who is not God cannot be perfect and therefore could not fulfill the 'sacrifice' needed to wash away all our sins.
As for when verses are given from Jesus saying, ' my God, ' does this mean that Jesus is not God? No! Jesus was in the flesh as a MAN, so of course, MEN have no other God but the FATHER. So, this does not mean Jesus is not God.
Let me deal with one thing quickly…
Quote
Jeremiah.23:6 is often used to prove YAHushua is YAHWEH.Jer. 23:6 “In his [YAHushua's] days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his [YAHushua's] name whereby he [YAHushua] shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
If this verse teaches that YAHushua is YAHWEH because he is called “YAHWEH Our Righteousness, then Jer.33:16 teaches that Jerusalem is also YAHWEH. For it reads,
Jer 33:16 “In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS
This is a falsity for one reason. If you really investigate the Jer 33:16 verse, it does not say 'she' anywhere. And it DOES NOT imply Jerusalem as God! In fact, if you read the verse before it, it states “…I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land.”
And Jer 33:16 says HE, not SHE, so therefore Jeremiah is again (like in 23:6) saying the Messiah will be called, The Lord Our Righteousness. So, these verses do nothing for your argument and in fact help in the opposing argument.And again…
Quote
Even the Name of Messiah 'Yahushua' points to The Father Yahweh, as it means; Yahweh is Salvation and is pronounced with even the emphesis on the first syllable and an almost silent middle 'u' , YAHushua. Consider YAHushua's own words in the gospel of John;John. 14:28, “…for my Father is greater than I.”
John.10:29, “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all…”
John. 13:16, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, They servant [YAHushua] is not greater than his Master [YAHWEH]; neither he that is sent [YAHushua] is greater than He that sent him [YAHWEH].”
These verses teach us YAHushua's own view of his relationship to his Father. Notice he didn't claim to be the Father but instead, made a clear distinction between the two.First of all, yes, Jesus distinguished between the two quite often. But why would he not? In the trinity belief, the Father and Son ARE two seperate entities, right? Well, if so, then why not distinguish himself from the Father, since being in the flesh he was not the FATHER. Now, because the Father is God, you may say than Jesus isn't God, but that isn't true either. Jesus is God just in the form of the Son (aka in flesh). Trinity means that each are seperate, but all make up God. This isn't so hard to understand is it?
(Im not being a mean person, when saying this, so don't think I am being that way. It is hard to tell someone's demeanor over the internet. Just remember, Iron sharpens Iron, so what we are discussing hopefully helps each other)
As far as the names go, come on now! Of course you are going to have different names for parts of something. Like a thumb is called a thumb, but is still (on the whole) part of the hand.
Now, this is an actual question: Is the word for 'the Father' the same as the sacred word for God (Yahweh)? Or is it something a little different? Just curious.
And oh, I love how you use John 10:29 for your argument, but dont look one verse further and see what it says! How about John 10:30? It says ” I and the Father are one. ” HOW IS THIS DEBATABLE? Jesus clearly states he and the Father are one! Obviously, not at the moment, but He is saying that He is in the Father and the Father is in him (10:38).
And …
Quote
If we do not try to force the Scriptures to conform to our own doctrines, they are so simple to understand. Instead men try to support “Holy Trinities”, “Incarnations”, “Transubstantiations”, and the like. The Bible does not use terms like “Father” and “Son” to try and trick us. They are used to express a relationship that we can relate to. If YAHushua is Father YAHWEH, the Scriptures would state it in plain language.I think in John 10:30 states this. Maybe not plainly, but then again Jesus taught in parables, not plain words. Oh and another verse:
Cor 2:9 ” For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form. ” This supports my bodily form argument.
More…
Quote
Since John the Baptist preceeded YAHushua, Is.40:3 and Mt.3:3 are often used to prove YAHWEH is YAHushua.Is.40:3 reads, “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH, make straight in the desert a highway for our Elohim.”
Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah, Lu.3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Is.40:4 & 5. It says, “As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of YAHWEH.”
“Prepare ye the way of YAHWEH” does not mean, “Move out of the way because YAHWEH is coming.” And so when YAHushua comes they believe he is YAHWEH.
How was “the way” to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work?
John.4:34 says, “YAHushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish His work.”
Almighty YAHWEH appointed His Son YAHushua to finish His work. YAHushua was YAHWEH'S instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. YAHushua is the “Messenger of the Covenant,” “the servant of YAHWEH,” and “the salvation of YAHWEH.” John.14:6 calls YAHushua “the way.” He is “the way of YAHWEH;” the means through which YAHWEH will finish His work.
Ok, ok, wait. How does any of this disprove the trinity? This part you added is silly. First, John the Baptist was the one preparing the way, not Jesus. John himself claimed this in John 1:23. So, John was preparing the way for (as you said) Yahweh. So, how does this matter when saying Jesus was doing God's work? Of course He is? Who can do God's wo
rk but God? Surely not a normal human? One hasn't yet! But (I am certain you agree) Jesus was no normal person.I am hoping for a rebuttal and I am sure we can help eachother out! I look forward to replying as well. God Bless!
Dustin
Before you get too excited with that Romans 9:5 quote I think you should check the same verse in other bibles. Please go to:
http://www.blueletterbible.com
You will now see that it doesn't say what you thought it said!!
To Dustin,
It is true what Ramblinrose says.
It's funny how these types of verses are always controversial. Some bibles quote these controversies. E.g. in the NIV it says
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.Footnotes
9:5 Or Christ, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Christ. God who is over all be forever praised!
I just see trinitarians hard at work once again choosing anything that will back up there belief. Thank God we have enough scriptural texts to make comparisons and to root out the known additions and mis-translations. No translation is perfect, but there are enough sources in order to find the truth if one is willing to search the truth with all their heart.
Quote The Israelites knew that the only person that could possibly save them from their sins was God himself! How, then, could Jesus not be God? Someone who is not God cannot be perfect and therefore could not fulfill the 'sacrifice' needed to wash away all our sins. Yes only God can save us, yet he chooses the Church to bring salvation to the world. Just as he sent Jesus his son to save all mankind through his death and resurrection.
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”So we can see that Jesus did the Father's will and not his own. So it was God that saved us, but through his Son Jesus Christ.
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.So yes all things originate in God who is the Father. Jesus taught us that even he was subject to God and not himself.
God is light, yet Jesus is the light that gives light to every man and we are the light of the world. Remember that light reflects and Jesus is the Image of God and we were made in the image of God. No image is the Original, only like the Original.
Quote And oh, I love how you use John 10:29 for your argument, but dont look one verse further and see what it says! How about John 10:30? It says ” I and the Father are one. ” HOW IS THIS DEBATABLE? Jesus clearly states he and the Father are one! Obviously, not at the moment, but He is saying that He is in the Father and the Father is in him (10:38). Sounds like you are saying that the Father is the same God as the Son/ the same person, but a different state namely flesh. But the organised church have already judged this to be heresy. It is called 'modalism'. Of course I have no faith in the works of man, but I say this to show you that you who trust in the man-made doctrine of the Trinity, are being judged by the same doctrine and you appear to be in heresy according to their judgement. Look up the meaning of 'modalism' and it will say what I think you are saying here.
Let's have a look at what Jesus really meant by saying that he and the Father were one, I point you to Jesus own words.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.So your thinking if followed would mean that we were the Father too. To be one in spirit is what it is saying. Just as many boats can float in one water, so can many identities be one in spirit, yet retain their own identites.
Quote Now, this is an actual question: Is the word for 'the Father' the same as the sacred word for God (Yahweh)? Or is it something a little different? Just curious. God became a Father when he begat a son. Yahweh is God's name. Just as your earthly father is a father, but has a name.
Quote Cor 2:9 ” For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form. ” This supports my bodily form argument. What about the next verse
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.Just as Jesus is the fullness of God, so are we the fullness of Christ and we are after all his body, the body of Christ. Your reasoning if followed would have to suggest that we were Christ, just as you say that Christ is God. Please re-think this one.
Dustin I can see that you feel very confident that the trinity doctrine is correct, yet when you really seek the truth on this, you will find that it developed some centuries later and the doctrine is not in line with neither the Old nor New Testaments.
You may also think that it must be right given that it is a foundation of most denominations. But if you think this, then you do not understand what or who the Church is. I pray only that you would seek the truth above the wisdom and philosophy of this world system.
Jesus is God. He is not the Father and The Father is greater than Him. The Father is His God. He is worthy of worship by men and the angels and He accepted worship. But He did not seek to be worshipped but sought to bring all men to worship the Father and back into a family relationship with Him and the Father. He wanted all to be His brothers and filled with the Spirit as He is. The trinity is a false derived teaching that insults God by it's arrogant assumptions. It is not worthy of serious consideration by all who know the Spirit.
are you a jehovah's witness?
John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.This is the true instruction about God and worshipping him. God is said to be the Father and he is Spirit. We are told that we should worship him in spirit and truth.
If we worship Jesus Christ as the almighty God, then we are not worshipping the Father and we are also not in the truth with this matter. Jesus was and is worshipped as the Lamb and as the son of God, but not as God himself.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”Added later:
========
BTW I felt led to write my last post and was ignorant of Nick's previous post. It didn't show up before that for some strange reason. After I posted it showed up and it is the exact same subject, namely worship of God and how Jesus fits into this subject.
========Praise God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2004,22:16) The trinity is a false derived teaching that insults God by it's arrogant assumptions. It is not worthy of serious consideration by all who know the Spirit.
How true your words are.It is quite scary when you realise how deep this deception that portrays itself as truth really is.
Certainly the devil has deceived the whole world. I believe that denominations are part of that system and why they are so open to deception and every evil work.
Many of us need a true revelation about the Church and what the Body of Christ really is.
hey t8,
i discovered the article lastnight – i was actually looking for something like this!! i read your “testimony” near the start of this discussion and must say – i appreciate your honesty, and can completely relate to your “quest”… when i started questioning this doctrine (on another discussion site) i was hounded with the kind of arguments that i also perceive on this site, and it would have been so great for just one person to say – yeh, i understand your questions and motives!
i'll just add – my own questions arose over a discussion of the arian “herecy”… i couldn't understand why people were so quick to condemn him, seeing as our only evidence for what he actually said comes from the writings of his opponent (athanasius) and his “friend” eusebius (who i find unreliable – but my fellow devators found straightforward and honest)… i was always one to identify with the underdog…
anyway, just wanted to encourage you…
cheers,
nate.
Hey thx nate,
I am still not sure what the so-called arian heresy was, but I know that it's reaction led to the Trinity doctrine.
I give you the following quote from:
The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D. pp. 155-8.“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all', as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the pre-existent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone', and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not'. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2004,03:18) Hey thx nate, I am still not sure what the so-called arian heresy was, but I know that it's reaction led to the Trinity doctrine.
Hmmm! The so-called 'arian heresy' is … what you actually believe, t8
Arius believed that Jesus pre-existed his birth as the 'Logos'
Therefore the Logos to him was a supernatural being of some kind. The reasons why Athanasius & his contemporaries condemned him & called his teaching an heresy; is because, altho' trinitarians believed that Jesus pre-existed his birth, they asserted that he was eternal hence he had no beginning; whilst Arius & his contemporaries asserted that Jesus indeed had a beginning (sometime before the foundation of the world because Arius believed that Jesus as this Logos-being created all things)So from the time of the council of Nicea to present-time, anyone who asserts that Jesus isn't eternal but has a beginning is generally slandered 'an Arian'
Strictly speaking, an Arian is someone who believes that Jesus has a beginning, but his beginning is long before his birth, usually just before the foundation of the world.
Hope this helps
Adam PastorBTW
I am not a trinitarianArianism arose early in the 4th century and he taught that Jesus was a “created being” and thus not divine. Later extremists claimed Jesus was “unlike” the Father.
The movement was crushed by the Emperors and at the Council of Constantinople of 381 the belief was proscribed and the Nicene Creed promulgated.
We know that Jesus was not created but begotten in the beginning.
Ps2.7 ” You are my Son. This day I have begotten you”
also acts 13.33 and Heb 1.5
This tells us there was situation before the Son was begotten when the Father was alone.We also know the the Father,through the Son created the universe and he is the exact image of the Father.
Heb 1 .2f” ..in this, the final age, He has spoken to us through His Son ,whom He has made heir of all things ,and through whom He first created the universe .This Son is the reflection of the Father's glory, the Exact representation of the Father's being and He sustains all things through His powerful Word.”
Thus the Son was present before creation.
So these teachings are not the same as those of t8 but are false.
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